School psychologist gave my child a survey

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He has a 504 plan for a medical condition and I asked if we could add accommodations for anxiety (he does not have ADHD). The psychologist said she would have to do some data collection to be able to add accommodations for anxiety.

And you presumably consented to the data collection? Take this as a learning opportunity and move on. In the future, you can ask specific questions about the data collection tools that will be used if you'd like that information ahead of time. The Conners is a common questionnaire to use in schools for 504/IEP evaluations.

Stating that an assessment is “common” does not eliminate the requirement of informed consent.

Which was apparently given.

Then why didn’t OP know about it until after it was completed?

You know that’s not properly informed consent, you’re just being obtuse.

OP knew she was consenting, she just didn't realize the extent of the consent. Informed consent is a much broader transfer of power than you seem to believe. Informed consent will never warn you in advance about every single question the psychologist will ask your child. If OP is obsessed with questions of a sexual nature, in the future she can ask whether assessment given to her child include that content or not. The psychologist's jaw will probably drop to the floor.

I've been in 14 IEP/504 meetings for my kids, from K to 12th grade. The counselor or whoever is answering questions or explaining stuff never has time to explain the nitty gritty unless you research things in advance and specifically ask - you have to trust them in a large measure, just as they trust you when they ask you about your child's experiences and behaviors.

Personally I have never had trouble with IEP and 504 teams. I have found them to be conscientious and helpful. But then, I don't mind when my kids are asked those sorts of questions. I'm a research scientist myself, I understand why these questions are included, and it's not shocking to me that they're part of the procedure.

Being a research scientist I’m sure you’re aware that not being aware of the extent of consent doesn’t count as informed consent. A blanket statement would eliminate much of the informed aspect of consent. Even if the school wouldn’t require this, the testing administration protocol does require it. The test should never have been administered without prior conversation informing the guardian of the specific testing to be administered and obtaining written consent specific to this assessment only after the guardian was properly informed and had an opportunity to ask questions. These things can’t just happen after the test, that’s not informed consent. This is ethics and test administration 101.

Oh my dear. Nothing schools require is at the level of the paperwork I need to get access to clinical data for my work. And it will never happen in a public, or private school. You have no idea how different the standards are!

There is just nothing to argue about. Sorry. You can try, and stamp your feet in front of the Principal, but ultimately if you're looking for services and accommodations from the school... you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

It’s on you, and only you, to maintain professional ethics. You shouldn’t be administering an assessment if you can’t do so within the ethical guidelines established for an assessment. Don’t use “but I work for the school system” as an excuse for your lack of professionalism.

I'm pretty sure that the ethical guidelines for standardized assessments include not revealing the questions in advance to parents.

huh? no, you’re not administering secret tests to my kid.

How secret is it when you consented to evaluations? You don't get to know the questions ahead of time.

Op your kid did a standard test, seemingly after your request for further evaluations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is absurd! Nobody should be performing any type of behavioral or psychological assessments on your child without your written consent!

Report this immediately to the principal, sped director, state offices. Also request the licensing information for this psychologist and report it immediately to their licensing board.

Demand that all tests and testing booklets be turned over to you and not made a part of their permanent record.

Do all of this in writing and follow up in person. Hire a lawyer if you need to.

Quit while you're ahead. If OP asked or consented to starting the 504 plan procedure, the school probably has the right to conduct a battery of psychological assessments. Conners is one of the tests on that list. The psychologist was asked to verify whether ADHD could be a reason to develop a 504 plan.

This is all to OP's kid's benefit.

Federal law requires the school to obtain consent from the youth’s legal guardian before conducting any individual assessments.

One can assume proper informed consent was not given since the OP is livid that the test was performed and clearly didn’t understand the scope of the assessment prior to administration.

Somebody failed at their job.

Ha ha! Yes, the OP and your good self, are failing a basic comprehension test. OP consented to further evidence gathering, the psychologist is merely doing their job. This is a standard test, one of many.

You have no legal leg to stand on. Do not talk of what you don't know. This is the SN Forum, most of us have been in this situation, and we're fine with it, because we understand how assessments work.

OP's reaction actually makes me wonder whether there IS a problem in that department that she'd rather not explore. No normal parent who wants to help their child get a 504 would balk at that sort of question. All the kid has to say is no. I'm sure my son said no when he was asked, at 6, 10 and 17.

I am a normal parent who happens to be a normal lawyer. I would have a huge problem if the school asked my kids questions involving criminal behavior without my *informed* consent - and that means specific test names and the diagnostic purpose and data collected.

If a parent wasn't happy with the Connors form questions, there are other standardized test that could be used for ADHD assessments

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.

Same here!

Honestly, it comes from the bizarrely arbitrary and punitive way schools handle these sorts of issues. I really don’t trust them to handle it appropriately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He has a 504 plan for a medical condition and I asked if we could add accommodations for anxiety (he does not have ADHD). The psychologist said she would have to do some data collection to be able to add accommodations for anxiety.

And you presumably consented to the data collection? Take this as a learning opportunity and move on. In the future, you can ask specific questions about the data collection tools that will be used if you'd like that information ahead of time. The Conners is a common questionnaire to use in schools for 504/IEP evaluations.

Stating that an assessment is “common” does not eliminate the requirement of informed consent.

Which was apparently given.

Then why didn’t OP know about it until after it was completed?

You know that’s not properly informed consent, you’re just being obtuse.

OP knew she was consenting, she just didn't realize the extent of the consent. Informed consent is a much broader transfer of power than you seem to believe. Informed consent will never warn you in advance about every single question the psychologist will ask your child. If OP is obsessed with questions of a sexual nature, in the future she can ask whether assessment given to her child include that content or not. The psychologist's jaw will probably drop to the floor.

I've been in 14 IEP/504 meetings for my kids, from K to 12th grade. The counselor or whoever is answering questions or explaining stuff never has time to explain the nitty gritty unless you research things in advance and specifically ask - you have to trust them in a large measure, just as they trust you when they ask you about your child's experiences and behaviors.

Personally I have never had trouble with IEP and 504 teams. I have found them to be conscientious and helpful. But then, I don't mind when my kids are asked those sorts of questions. I'm a research scientist myself, I understand why these questions are included, and it's not shocking to me that they're part of the procedure.

Being a research scientist I’m sure you’re aware that not being aware of the extent of consent doesn’t count as informed consent. A blanket statement would eliminate much of the informed aspect of consent. Even if the school wouldn’t require this, the testing administration protocol does require it. The test should never have been administered without prior conversation informing the guardian of the specific testing to be administered and obtaining written consent specific to this assessment only after the guardian was properly informed and had an opportunity to ask questions. These things can’t just happen after the test, that’s not informed consent. This is ethics and test administration 101.

Oh my dear. Nothing schools require is at the level of the paperwork I need to get access to clinical data for my work. And it will never happen in a public, or private school. You have no idea how different the standards are!

There is just nothing to argue about. Sorry. You can try, and stamp your feet in front of the Principal, but ultimately if you're looking for services and accommodations from the school... you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

It’s on you, and only you, to maintain professional ethics. You shouldn’t be administering an assessment if you can’t do so within the ethical guidelines established for an assessment. Don’t use “but I work for the school system” as an excuse for your lack of professionalism.

I'm pretty sure that the ethical guidelines for standardized assessments include not revealing the questions in advance to parents.

huh? no, you’re not administering secret tests to my kid.

How secret is it when you consented to evaluations? You don't get to know the questions ahead of time.

Op your kid did a standard test, seemingly after your request for further evaluations.

the questions in the Connor and Vanderbilt are not secret. I’m not sure where you’re getting that idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is good OP, why don't you want to know these things? I remember having "friends" trying to force me to do sexual things at age 9!

Do you think they admit it on surveys?

As someone who works in this field, you would be surprised how often people will answer questions honestly if you actually ask the question. Sometimes people need to be given the space by having the question asked.

Op, I would also recommend trying to let this go. This is a validated assessment tool, researched, tested, etc. Absolutely nothing will change from you complaining about it. And your son was not harmed by being asked a question on a difficult topic.

And children will give false answers to please trusted adults, unaware of the consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He has a 504 plan for a medical condition and I asked if we could add accommodations for anxiety (he does not have ADHD). The psychologist said she would have to do some data collection to be able to add accommodations for anxiety.

And you presumably consented to the data collection? Take this as a learning opportunity and move on. In the future, you can ask specific questions about the data collection tools that will be used if you'd like that information ahead of time. The Conners is a common questionnaire to use in schools for 504/IEP evaluations.

Stating that an assessment is “common” does not eliminate the requirement of informed consent.

Which was apparently given.

Then why didn’t OP know about it until after it was completed?

You know that’s not properly informed consent, you’re just being obtuse.

OP knew she was consenting, she just didn't realize the extent of the consent. Informed consent is a much broader transfer of power than you seem to believe. Informed consent will never warn you in advance about every single question the psychologist will ask your child. If OP is obsessed with questions of a sexual nature, in the future she can ask whether assessment given to her child include that content or not. The psychologist's jaw will probably drop to the floor.

I've been in 14 IEP/504 meetings for my kids, from K to 12th grade. The counselor or whoever is answering questions or explaining stuff never has time to explain the nitty gritty unless you research things in advance and specifically ask - you have to trust them in a large measure, just as they trust you when they ask you about your child's experiences and behaviors.

Personally I have never had trouble with IEP and 504 teams. I have found them to be conscientious and helpful. But then, I don't mind when my kids are asked those sorts of questions. I'm a research scientist myself, I understand why these questions are included, and it's not shocking to me that they're part of the procedure.

Being a research scientist I’m sure you’re aware that not being aware of the extent of consent doesn’t count as informed consent. A blanket statement would eliminate much of the informed aspect of consent. Even if the school wouldn’t require this, the testing administration protocol does require it. The test should never have been administered without prior conversation informing the guardian of the specific testing to be administered and obtaining written consent specific to this assessment only after the guardian was properly informed and had an opportunity to ask questions. These things can’t just happen after the test, that’s not informed consent. This is ethics and test administration 101.

Oh my dear. Nothing schools require is at the level of the paperwork I need to get access to clinical data for my work. And it will never happen in a public, or private school. You have no idea how different the standards are!

There is just nothing to argue about. Sorry. You can try, and stamp your feet in front of the Principal, but ultimately if you're looking for services and accommodations from the school... you'd be shooting yourself in the foot.

It’s on you, and only you, to maintain professional ethics. You shouldn’t be administering an assessment if you can’t do so within the ethical guidelines established for an assessment. Don’t use “but I work for the school system” as an excuse for your lack of professionalism.

I'm pretty sure that the ethical guidelines for standardized assessments include not revealing the questions in advance to parents.

huh? no, you’re not administering secret tests to my kid.

How secret is it when you consented to evaluations? You don't get to know the questions ahead of time.

Op your kid did a standard test, seemingly after your request for further evaluations.

the questions in the Connor and Vanderbilt are not secret. I’m not sure where you’re getting that idea.

As long as the names of the tests are disclosed I'd consider that acceptable. Then it's on the parents to research. I wouldn't consider a generic consent to 504 related evaluations to be informed consent. I would never have dreamed that an ADHD assessment for elementary school would ask about sex. (I'm not OP). I honestly would have assumed it asked about study habits for screen time and such.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.

I do not think that is true.

Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.

Same here!

I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:

A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:

Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity

Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)

Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years
The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For his 504 evaluation. It is called the Conners. The survey asked questions like "have you ever sexually forced someone to do something" or "have you used a weapon against someone?" I am livid. Do I complain to the principal? DC is 9, third grade.

Exactly. Way to plant the seed.

Hmm, I guess this is what’s supposed to be happened and is happening somewhere, let’s go find out.

[Anonymous]

It’s like asking your 5 yo if he likes his teacher so far.
That opens the door to Hmm, it’s an option to not like my teacher, and invisibly some people must like not like the teacher since I was just asked if I like the teacher or not. Hmm, I guess I don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is absurd! Nobody should be performing any type of behavioral or psychological assessments on your child without your written consent!

Report this immediately to the principal, sped director, state offices. Also request the licensing information for this psychologist and report it immediately to their licensing board.

Demand that all tests and testing booklets be turned over to you and not made a part of their permanent record.

Do all of this in writing and follow up in person. Hire a lawyer if you need to.

Quit while you're ahead. If OP asked or consented to starting the 504 plan procedure, the school probably has the right to conduct a battery of psychological assessments. Conners is one of the tests on that list. The psychologist was asked to verify whether ADHD could be a reason to develop a 504 plan.

This is all to OP's kid's benefit.

Federal law requires the school to obtain consent from the youth’s legal guardian before conducting any individual assessments.

One can assume proper informed consent was not given since the OP is livid that the test was performed and clearly didn’t understand the scope of the assessment prior to administration.

Somebody failed at their job.

Ha ha! Yes, the OP and your good self, are failing a basic comprehension test. OP consented to further evidence gathering, the psychologist is merely doing their job. This is a standard test, one of many.

You have no legal leg to stand on. Do not talk of what you don't know. This is the SN Forum, most of us have been in this situation, and we're fine with it, because we understand how assessments work.

OP's reaction actually makes me wonder whether there IS a problem in that department that she'd rather not explore. No normal parent who wants to help their child get a 504 would balk at that sort of question. All the kid has to say is no. I'm sure my son said no when he was asked, at 6, 10 and 17.

I am a normal parent who happens to be a normal lawyer. I would have a huge problem if the school asked my kids questions involving criminal behavior without my *informed* consent - and that means specific test names and the diagnostic purpose and data collected.

If a parent wasn't happy with the Connors form questions, there are other standardized test that could be used for ADHD assessments

+1.

+2. My public school did an OT evaluation on my son without informing us (and therefore obviously without our consent). I thought it was really weird they would do that, but didn’t say anything. If it was something like this, I’d be pretty upset and would probably say something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.

I do not think that is true.

Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.

That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.

[Anonymous]

I saw it on TV so said yes. Does that count?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.

Same here!

I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:

A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:

Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity

Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)

Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years
The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

thanks for that explanation! that makes sense - the kid was getting screened for conduct disorder not ADHD. Can you even diagnose conduct disorder in a 9 year old?

and while you’re here, any other tips for parents on evaluations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.

Same here!

I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:

A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:

Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity

Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)

Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years
The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?