Algebra 1 in 6th grade, followed by normal pace

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is the point of children being so advanced in math? Are they going to MIT? This seems extreme and unnecessary.

Why is math handled differently than everything else? If a kid is reading several years above grade level, people applaud it and want to give the kid advanced books to read. Kids who are talented in sports get private coaching and elite travel teams. Kids talented in music progress to concertos while still in middle school.

But kids who are talented in math are told to sit through remedial instruction, and that there’s no point in moving forward.

[Anonymous]

A common concern raised by equity proponents is that HS students may not be learning Calculus as thoroughly as they should. Instead, statistics is suggested as a better choice since students tend to learn it better in HS. Math educators who support equity efforts argue that postponing Calculus until college could lead to a more proficient learning experience. A big benefit of not allowing calculus enrollment in high school is it immediately addresses the math equity gap that is caused by Calculus students graduating HS with two additional math years compared to those who complete HS with just Algebra 2.

[Anonymous]

Statistics is recommended because nearly no one actually learns statistics and no one cares that most scientific research does statistics incorrectly, so it's easy to let people go through the motions of the class and then get on with their life.

The most famous and powerful modern math reformer, Jo Boaler, based her movement on research that was debunked and discredited as statistically invalid.

Statistics is not easier than calculus.

[Anonymous]

Calculus is taught far too late, not too early.

The roots of calculus are in basic algebra and geometry, s you can see in 3Blue1Brown's Essence of Calculus video.

If this would be introduced slowly, earlier, calculus be much more intuitive once it's time for the AP class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So less than half of Asian Americans take calculus in high school? A higher amount than other groups but still not a majority of students.

Students can get to calculus if they have Algebra 1 in 8th grade. There really isn’t a barrier for any race.

That's impressive so far. If barriers like this current convoluted process to enroll in Algebra 1 in 6th grade were to be eliminated, calculus enrollment would increase over time not just for Asian American students but all other races too.

6th grade Algebra 1 is not a barrier to calculus. You can take Algebra 1 in 8th grade and take calculus. And there is no real barrier to Algebra 1 in 8th grade, most the MS have a large number of students in Algebra 1 in 8th grade, so on track to calculus.

Most kids don’t take calculus because they are not interested in calculus and want to take a different type of math. Calculus is not required for most college majors.

There is lack of straight forward process to enroll in Algebra 1 in 6th grade. Parent needs to know the multiyear plan and testing process starting from 4th grade, which is ridiculous. Only 30 or so kids' parents seem to know about it. URM kids are missing out.

The process is triggered by FCPS and not the parents. Parents don't need to know the plan, since they have no part in initiating the acceleration. It's triggered by the school for kids who meet the criteria. If a URM kid is at an AAP center that participates in this acceleration, and the URM kid meets the benchmarks, the URM kid will be skipped ahead, just like all of the other kids who qualify. There aren't necessarily that many kids with qualifying scores who lack access. One PP has stated that her kid meets the benchmarks but wasn't offered the acceleration, but if I remember correctly, the kid opted not to attend the center, where the acceleration was likely available.

There are many reasons to be concerned with the FCPS path toward Algebra in 6th. Using CogAT scores from the fall of 2nd grade, rather than retesting for math level at the end of 4th is absurd. Letting principals opt out of the program when they have qualifying kids is also bad. Making highly advanced kids slog through grade level math for 3 years and only mildly accelerated for 2 more before completely skipping a year is dumb. Keeping parents largely out of the process is no big deal.

What if the URM kid isn't at the center since their well-meaning parents trusted FCPS' claims that local LIV was the same? Then what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to statistics, data science is an alternative to calculus. FCPS has Data Science 1 & 2, but offered only at few schools like Falls Church HS

It is better to take Statistics after calculus. AP classes are supposedly algebra based, but they miss the underlying fundamentals.

What is covered in Data science that’s not in other math classes?

Data Science is a great option for kids who want more math but are not interested in calculus, which is most of the population. . I had Algebra, Geometry, and Algebra II in high school. I didn’t take a math my senior year. I have never had calculus but I have a PhD. I have used and taught advanced statistics without ever having calculus.

What topics are "advanced statistics" ?

When did you do your PhD?

Regression, Logit, Probit, Simultaneous Equations, and other statistical methodologies. You can learn when and how to use different techniques without being able to prove them. Sage Publication has a great series of books that walks through various techniques that discuss when to use them, how to use them, the diagnostics to check that there is not an issue with your data, and how to correct your data if there is an issue. The books include the proofs and explain the proofs but you can skip that to get to the how to use the method properly.

Probability and stats can be understood and used without calculus. Plenty of fields in academics don’t require calculus. The people in the AAP forum tend to be fully locked into STEM that they don’t understand that most fields don’t require calculus. Most kids don’t take it because it is a hard class and they don’t like math that much.

There are many successful career paths in life that don’t require calculus.

I can't help but notice that you skipped my questions. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask again:

Do you know how to get a distribution given its CDF, or vice versa? Do you know what a moment generating function is? What field is your PhD in?

"The books include the proofs and explain the proofs but you can skip that to get to the how to use the method properly." - you can't make this stuff up, can you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So less than half of Asian Americans take calculus in high school? A higher amount than other groups but still not a majority of students.

Students can get to calculus if they have Algebra 1 in 8th grade. There really isn’t a barrier for any race.

That's impressive so far. If barriers like this current convoluted process to enroll in Algebra 1 in 6th grade were to be eliminated, calculus enrollment would increase over time not just for Asian American students but all other races too.

6th grade Algebra 1 is not a barrier to calculus. You can take Algebra 1 in 8th grade and take calculus. And there is no real barrier to Algebra 1 in 8th grade, most the MS have a large number of students in Algebra 1 in 8th grade, so on track to calculus.

Most kids don’t take calculus because they are not interested in calculus and want to take a different type of math. Calculus is not required for most college majors.

There is lack of straight forward process to enroll in Algebra 1 in 6th grade. Parent needs to know the multiyear plan and testing process starting from 4th grade, which is ridiculous. Only 30 or so kids' parents seem to know about it. URM kids are missing out.

You're really determined to make this a "FCPS oppressing URMs" thing, even when it isn't. There are probably only a small handful of kids who meet the CogAT Q and SOL benchmarks, but are at a non participating school. These kids are likely white or Asian kids, and they likely knew that staying at the LLIV rather than attending the center would cost them some opportunities.

The process is triggered by FCPS and not the parents. Parents don't need to know the plan, since they have no part in initiating the acceleration. It's triggered by the school for kids who meet the criteria. If a URM kid is at an AAP center that participates in this acceleration, and the URM kid meets the benchmarks, the URM kid will be skipped ahead, just like all of the other kids who qualify. There aren't necessarily that many kids with qualifying scores who lack access. One PP has stated that her kid meets the benchmarks but wasn't offered the acceleration, but if I remember correctly, the kid opted not to attend the center, where the acceleration was likely available.

There are many reasons to be concerned with the FCPS path toward Algebra in 6th. Using CogAT scores from the fall of 2nd grade, rather than retesting for math level at the end of 4th is absurd. Letting principals opt out of the program when they have qualifying kids is also bad. Making highly advanced kids slog through grade level math for 3 years and only mildly accelerated for 2 more before completely skipping a year is dumb. Keeping parents largely out of the process is no big deal.

What if the URM kid isn't at the center since their well-meaning parents trusted FCPS' claims that local LIV was the same? Then what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So less than half of Asian Americans take calculus in high school? A higher amount than other groups but still not a majority of students.

Students can get to calculus if they have Algebra 1 in 8th grade. There really isn’t a barrier for any race.

That's impressive so far. If barriers like this current convoluted process to enroll in Algebra 1 in 6th grade were to be eliminated, calculus enrollment would increase over time not just for Asian American students but all other races too.

6th grade Algebra 1 is not a barrier to calculus. You can take Algebra 1 in 8th grade and take calculus. And there is no real barrier to Algebra 1 in 8th grade, most the MS have a large number of students in Algebra 1 in 8th grade, so on track to calculus.

Most kids don’t take calculus because they are not interested in calculus and want to take a different type of math. Calculus is not required for most college majors.

There is lack of straight forward process to enroll in Algebra 1 in 6th grade. Parent needs to know the multiyear plan and testing process starting from 4th grade, which is ridiculous. Only 30 or so kids' parents seem to know about it. URM kids are missing out.

The process is triggered by FCPS and not the parents. Parents don't need to know the plan, since they have no part in initiating the acceleration. It's triggered by the school for kids who meet the criteria. If a URM kid is at an AAP center that participates in this acceleration, and the URM kid meets the benchmarks, the URM kid will be skipped ahead, just like all of the other kids who qualify. There aren't necessarily that many kids with qualifying scores who lack access. One PP has stated that her kid meets the benchmarks but wasn't offered the acceleration, but if I remember correctly, the kid opted not to attend the center, where the acceleration was likely available.

There are many reasons to be concerned with the FCPS path toward Algebra in 6th. Using CogAT scores from the fall of 2nd grade, rather than retesting for math level at the end of 4th is absurd. Letting principals opt out of the program when they have qualifying kids is also bad. Making highly advanced kids slog through grade level math for 3 years and only mildly accelerated for 2 more before completely skipping a year is dumb. Keeping parents largely out of the process is no big deal.

What if the URM kid isn't at the center since their well-meaning parents trusted FCPS' claims that local LIV was the same? Then what?

You're really determined to make this a "FCPS oppressing URMs" thing, even when it isn't. There are probably only a small handful of kids who meet the CogAT Q and SOL benchmarks, but are at a non participating school. These kids are likely white or Asian kids, and they likely knew that staying at the LLIV rather than attending the center would cost them some opportunities.

If, in theory, you had a brilliant URM with a sky high CogAT Q, then the school would be encouraging the parents to send the kid to the center. It's pretty well understood that if your kid is a regular AAP kid, the LLIV and the center will be more or less the same, but if you have an outlier, your kid should attend the center. Why are you assuming that URM parents are dumb and don't know how to advocate for their outlier children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A common concern raised by equity proponents is that HS students may not be learning Calculus as thoroughly as they should. Instead, statistics is suggested as a better choice since students tend to learn it better in HS. Math educators who support equity efforts argue that postponing Calculus until college could lead to a more proficient learning experience. A big benefit of not allowing calculus enrollment in high school is it immediately addresses the math equity gap that is caused by Calculus students graduating HS with two additional math years compared to those who complete HS with just Algebra 2.

There is a whole segment of academic researchers and teachers who have buried their head into equity philosophy, and generate virtue signaling content all over the internet, justifying lower and slower math is better for everyone, including advanced students. But data proves them wrong. HS students that enroll in Calc BC have shown they are more than capable of mastering Calculus than the apparently easier Statistics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Calculus is taught far too late, not too early.

The roots of calculus are in basic algebra and geometry, s you can see in 3Blue1Brown's Essence of Calculus video.

If this would be introduced slowly, earlier, calculus be much more intuitive once it's time for the AP class

I found calc far more intuitive than algebra or geometry, and I went straight from pre-calc to BC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calculus is taught far too late, not too early.

The roots of calculus are in basic algebra and geometry, s you can see in 3Blue1Brown's Essence of Calculus video.

If this would be introduced slowly, earlier, calculus be much more intuitive once it's time for the AP class

I found calc far more intuitive than algebra or geometry, and I went straight from pre-calc to BC.

That's the normal progression, you didn't do anything extra fancy. And fwiw, I also thought calculus was more intuitive than algebra or geometry, since I had a great calculus teacher. My friend, on the other hand, hated calculus, because they had a poor calculus teacher. If all math teachers were great, kids would do better in math classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A common concern raised by equity proponents is that HS students may not be learning Calculus as thoroughly as they should. Instead, statistics is suggested as a better choice since students tend to learn it better in HS. Math educators who support equity efforts argue that postponing Calculus until college could lead to a more proficient learning experience. A big benefit of not allowing calculus enrollment in high school is it immediately addresses the math equity gap that is caused by Calculus students graduating HS with two additional math years compared to those who complete HS with just Algebra 2.

There is a whole segment of academic researchers and teachers who have buried their head into equity philosophy, and generate virtue signaling content all over the internet, justifying lower and slower math is better for everyone, including advanced students. But data proves them wrong. HS students that enroll in Calc BC have shown they are more than capable of mastering Calculus than the apparently easier Statistics.

+1. People keep insisting that kids' brains are "not ready" for Algebra when they're younger, and that they will have gaps in their understanding or struggle in later math classes. If the data actually supported this idea, they might have a point in pushing a slower track. The AP Calc and SOL data pretty convincingly show that the accelerated kids are more than capable of handling their accelerated path.

Parents here are very oddly competitive about math level, and it seems like everyone wants the highest available level to be the one that their kid is taking. The parents of kids who didn't qualify for 7th grade Algebra want to restrict other kids from taking it or want to redefine math levels such that their kids are just as smart and capable as the more accelerated kids. The parents of the 7th grade Algebra kids act like it's absurd for anyone to access 6th or even 5th grade Algebra. It makes sense that people don't want their kids to look worse on paper than kids who are more advanced. It's sad, though, to be so petty as to try to hold other kids back just because their own kids aren't ready for more acceleration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calculus is taught far too late, not too early.

The roots of calculus are in basic algebra and geometry, s you can see in 3Blue1Brown's Essence of Calculus video.

If this would be introduced slowly, earlier, calculus be much more intuitive once it's time for the AP class

I found calc far more intuitive than algebra or geometry, and I went straight from pre-calc to BC.

That's the normal progression, you didn't do anything extra fancy. And fwiw, I also thought calculus was more intuitive than algebra or geometry, since I had a great calculus teacher. My friend, on the other hand, hated calculus, because they had a poor calculus teacher. If all math teachers were great, kids would do better in math classes.

I know I didn't do anything fancy. It was the normal thing to do when I did it. These days at least on DCUM people seem to freak out at the thought of their kid doing BC without first doing AB, but it may be the same small handful of posters posting repeatedly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Calculus is taught far too late, not too early.

The roots of calculus are in basic algebra and geometry, s you can see in 3Blue1Brown's Essence of Calculus video.

If this would be introduced slowly, earlier, calculus be much more intuitive once it's time for the AP class

I found calc far more intuitive than algebra or geometry, and I went straight from pre-calc to BC.

You and your teachers did a good job learning algebra and geometry to prepare you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A common concern raised by equity proponents is that HS students may not be learning Calculus as thoroughly as they should. Instead, statistics is suggested as a better choice since students tend to learn it better in HS. Math educators who support equity efforts argue that postponing Calculus until college could lead to a more proficient learning experience. A big benefit of not allowing calculus enrollment in high school is it immediately addresses the math equity gap that is caused by Calculus students graduating HS with two additional math years compared to those who complete HS with just Algebra 2.

There is a whole segment of academic researchers and teachers who have buried their head into equity philosophy, and generate virtue signaling content all over the internet, justifying lower and slower math is better for everyone, including advanced students. But data proves them wrong. HS students that enroll in Calc BC have shown they are more than capable of mastering Calculus than the apparently easier Statistics.

+1. People keep insisting that kids' brains are "not ready" for Algebra when they're younger, and that they will have gaps in their understanding or struggle in later math classes. If the data actually supported this idea, they might have a point in pushing a slower track. The AP Calc and SOL data pretty convincingly show that the accelerated kids are more than capable of handling their accelerated path.

Parents here are very oddly competitive about math level, and it seems like everyone wants the highest available level to be the one that their kid is taking. The parents of kids who didn't qualify for 7th grade Algebra want to restrict other kids from taking it or want to redefine math levels such that their kids are just as smart and capable as the more accelerated kids. The parents of the 7th grade Algebra kids act like it's absurd for anyone to access 6th or even 5th grade Algebra. It makes sense that people don't want their kids to look worse on paper than kids who are more advanced. It's sad, though, to be so petty as to try to hold other kids back just because their own kids aren't ready for more acceleration.

DP. I am not one of the posters you are referring to since I have not posted that on this thread but I have heard it from knowledgeable, experienced math teachers. The same is true for learning to read, fwiw, some kids are ready young and some kids are ready at the usual time and a few kids late - but generally if you try to teach a child too early, you only frustrate them and yourself. Same for math, although you don't seem to believe that.