Bring Back Loss of Credit for Skipping Class!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a CTE teacher it’s amusing that people think we should have students that can’t read or do math in our programs. Most careers are technical with exams to pass. Kids absolutely need to be close to grade level in basic reading and math skills. Most of what these courses do is not hands-on. It’s prep for career exams.

Good point. But do you have any suggestions what to do with these kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a CTE teacher it’s amusing that people think we should have students that can’t read or do math in our programs. Most careers are technical with exams to pass. Kids absolutely need to be close to grade level in basic reading and math skills. Most of what these courses do is not hands-on. It’s prep for career exams.

Is it though? Maybe your kids in your class are fine, but:

- as recently as 2009, the overall rate of adult illiteracy in D.C. was 36%. Think about that:

More than a third of D.C.’s adults could not read.

Gentrification pushed many of D.C.’s illiterates into PG and other lower-cost areas. But the fact remains:

These adults were the product of our public schools in this area. They either dropped out, or “graduated” without the ability to read, due to social promotion.

You really should not try to minimize the enormity of the crisis in public education in our area, including the once-great MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a lot on parents too. Hopefully, at the HS level, your child understands they have an increasing level of responsibility in their own education and grades does not = education.

I was pretty clear with my kids that their growth and education was what they put into it.

Timeliness and attendance are fundamentally about respect for themselves and their learning, respect for the teacher and classmates.

When you register for a class, you are essentially saying you’ll attend.

Some kids don't care for school. They never asked to be there and are there reluctantly. The problem is we don't recognize this and like pretend that all kids are the same.[/quote

True. Kids aren’t all the same.

But with whom should the burden of reconciling that reluctance sit?

How can a system be infused with a mechanism to ask one to make a commitment?

I’m aware of countries (e.g., Brazil, Nigeria, Japan, India, China, UK) that require exams, the scores of which open or limit next steps; I see this as potentially distorting and biased.

What if instead of an exam like in the countries above, there was a process asking kids and their families to state their commitment to further education. This should happen near the end of compulsory education (~16 in US), but perhaps at earlier stages as well.

If, at 16, a kid decides they are no longer committed to their education they forge a different path (e.g., a job, vocational, tech school).

Whether a student earns a HS diploma- and all that offers- is up to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a lot on parents too. Hopefully, at the HS level, your child understands they have an increasing level of responsibility in their own education and grades does not = education.

I was pretty clear with my kids that their growth and education was what they put into it.

Timeliness and attendance are fundamentally about respect for themselves and their learning, respect for the teacher and classmates.

When you register for a class, you are essentially saying you’ll attend.

Some kids don't care for school. They never asked to be there and are there reluctantly. The problem is we don't recognize this and like pretend that all kids are the same.

We don’t pretend all kids are the same which is why there is a variety of program offerings including CTE, Internships, and Apprenticeships at the HS level. When we make generalized statements like this it turns off people who are charged with creating and implementing program’s because people often don’t see all the hard worn that has gone into creating and maintaining what is available currently.

Seems like many of these kids who are so disengaged from school and just wandering the halls would benefit from these programs. Are you sure people are aware of this stuff?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a lot on parents too. Hopefully, at the HS level, your child understands they have an increasing level of responsibility in their own education and grades does not = education.

I was pretty clear with my kids that their growth and education was what they put into it.

Timeliness and attendance are fundamentally about respect for themselves and their learning, respect for the teacher and classmates.

When you register for a class, you are essentially saying you’ll attend.

Some kids don't care for school. They never asked to be there and are there reluctantly. The problem is we don't recognize this and like pretend that all kids are the same.[/quote

True. Kids aren’t all the same.

But with whom should the burden of reconciling that reluctance sit?

How can a system be infused with a mechanism to ask one to make a commitment?

I’m aware of countries (e.g., Brazil, Nigeria, Japan, India, China, UK) that require exams, the scores of which open or limit next steps; I see this as potentially distorting and biased.

What if instead of an exam like in the countries above, there was a process asking kids and their families to state their commitment to further education. This should happen near the end of compulsory education (~16 in US), but perhaps at earlier stages as well.

If, at 16, a kid decides they are no longer committed to their education they forge a different path (e.g., a job, vocational, tech school).

Whether a student earns a HS diploma- and all that offers- is up to them.

Agree with this. I am not sure why we are insisting on these standards for the kids who just don't want to be there, and probably will never use half the things they learn in 11th/12th in their lives. They should be given the chance after tenth for job training or vocational school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a lot on parents too. Hopefully, at the HS level, your child understands they have an increasing level of responsibility in their own education and grades does not = education.

I was pretty clear with my kids that their growth and education was what they put into it.

Timeliness and attendance are fundamentally about respect for themselves and their learning, respect for the teacher and classmates.

When you register for a class, you are essentially saying you’ll attend.

Some kids don't care for school. They never asked to be there and are there reluctantly. The problem is we don't recognize this and like pretend that all kids are the same.

We don’t pretend all kids are the same which is why there is a variety of program offerings including CTE, Internships, and Apprenticeships at the HS level. When we make generalized statements like this it turns off people who are charged with creating and implementing program’s because people often don’t see all the hard worn that has gone into creating and maintaining what is available currently.

Seems like many of these kids who are so disengaged from school and just wandering the halls would benefit from these programs. Are you sure people are aware of this stuff?

It’s hard to be aware of stuff if you’re wandering the halls instead of in class or at least talking your counselor/Admin about why you aren’t in class and what you’d rather be doing. That said, MCPS needs to do a much better job of making students aware of opportunities that exist. They district doesn’t seem to understand how to communicate with student, families, and the community. They either overwhelm with information, much of it unnecessary or don’t provide enough and leave people to search for it. They also need much better academic advising.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/work-based-learning

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/partnerships/summer-rise/

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/career-readiness/plans/hs-plans/

https://futurelinkmd.org/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just posted above at 21:19....as far as grades go, trust me these hall walkers are failing classes at my school.

I don't say that as a matter of pride or happiness. But they sure as hell aren't passing.

The problem isn't the skipping as it relates to grades.

The problem is the sanctity of these institutions has been sullied by MCPS. It feels like the people who made these policies have either never worked in a high school before or haven't been in schools for like 10-15+ years.

It's dystopian seeing this. No joke, you parents here would just be so sad. I'm sure some of you would blame us staff. Go ahead if that floats your boat. It's just the policies of the district that leads to this.

Microcosm of society, really......

What do you think would help? What kind of policy reforms do you think would be effective? Do you need extra resources (cameras, something else)? More personnel (counselors, SRO’s, aides, volunteers, etc.)?

It’s hard for the public to know what’s needed, and MCPS clearly doesn’t know, but I think if someone could suggest a way to improve things, there’d be community support. With the upcoming election it might be a good time to try to see which candidates are actually interested in addressing the problem.

I'm the guy you replied to last night. I woke up early just to write this before I get ready to go (Frederick resident....born and raised in MoCo but can't afford to live there, at least in a place I can have my family comfortably living in....tale as old as time).

1. More accountability AND support for parents. I'm not gonna identify my high school but let's just say it's a "highly impacted" one. Way too many parents say things like "I don't know what to do to get him to go to class/get out of the halls/stop skipping/stop leaving campus." Or, "I don't know how to get him to get up on time and go to school and listen to me." Also, "I just need you all (school staff) to motivate him and make him want to go to school/class/care." I am not kidding, in my role in MCPS, they're literally by far the most common responses. They dwarf the responses of "Thank you all for the efforts you are putting in. We will work on this at home. I'm looking forward to working together on this." And before anyone says anything, like I said earlier, we bust our asses to support these kids but there's a line we have to draw before it becomes the parent giving up and dumping the kid on us.

So first thing's first, parent support groups—single mothers groups; single fathers groups; non-parental caregiver groups; parenting classes; family counseling; family tutoring; I could go on and on. Those should not only be provided, but mandated when a certain threshold of attendance and/or behavior violations have occurred. As a parent myself, I feel like I should have consequences for my child's repeated actions.

And no, not everything is an educational disability. Maybe Instagram or Facebook groups make parents think any time their kid farts they need an IEP. It's OK to accept that it's mostly NOT a disability and, instead, it's (a) choices made by the kid, (b) choices made by the parent, and (c) lack of accountability on the parent in having to pursue these things I described.

Call me what you will but it starts at home, full stop.

2. Major changes in school experience for students and parents entering Semester 6. What do I mean by this? When students enter their 6th semester—typically semester 2 of their third year (i.e. 11th grade)—if the student is way behind in credits, still having attendance issues, still walking the halls, etc. then there needs to be a systematic and mandatory district-wide process.

Let me first say that we MUST significantly fade the availability of credit recovery (Edmentum) and bring back high school plus. If a kid fails a class big time, they should NOT be allowed to do credit recovery on Edmentum. They need to retake it. If they fail by X percent (say, by 5%) and they had solid attendance then give them the option of credit recovery. But if they never went to class and just bombed it since they expected they could do it all later online in a few days on Edmentum, that's gotta end. They need to do HS+ or summer school or retake for original credit in the school year some other time. So think about this through this lens.

Any family whose student meets certain criteria like I described above when they enter that 6th semester will be mandated to have a meeting with their administrator, counselor, PPW, and any other related school staff. In that meeting there will be a discussion about what the next three (or more) semesters will look like. There will be a clear graduation pathway outlined. There will be strict adherence to withdrawing after 10 consecutive absences. There will be mandated meetings for the parent to come into the school far more often than they may be used to when their kid is skipping, etc. The stakes will rise and the expectations will too.

And then, if it's evident the student will need to come back for a 5th year, the stakes raise even more. Strict adherence to withdraw after 10 consecutive absences. Automatic parent/admin/counselor/PPW meeting after 5 consecutive absences. Regularly discuss things like Job Corps, GED, etc. Sorry folks, I know they have a right to access school until age 21, but if they want to be in HS at age 19, we're talking about an adult here. They have to feel the pain if they want to keep screwing around.

Call me what you want—a mean evil jerk—but the parents and students need to be accountable. I've been teaching/leading in high school for 15 years and I've concluded that this key component is missing. Too much responsibility on the institution/school (read: government) and not enough on the student/parent (read: individual).

3. Reading, math, executive functioning, and personal/professional skills interventions are mandatory to varying degrees for ALL students. Every single student in MCPS who enters 9th grade for the first time must be enrolled in one or more of those interventions. Full stop.

The idea that a 14 year old is a fully formed adult and doesn't even need, at a minimum, personal/professional skills training for a year is absurd. Families who push back at this since their little Johnny is a perfect little gentleman and can, at 14, just move off to the big city and have a career need to get a grip. Because that's what they're saying—their child has perfected his personal/professional skills at 14. Ridiculous! Those skills are just as important as English, math, science, social studies, etc., if not MORE important.

But not all kids are Little Perfect Johnny. I have done deep dives into the data many times....MAP-R, MAP-M, missing assignment trends, etc. Folks, these kids can't read. They can't do basic math. They can barely keep track of their assignments. And yet, we have this ridiculous zombie mindset from the Bush/Obama years that we need to push college and career readiness. THESE ARE 14 YEAR OLDS! Forget about college and career readiness if they can't read even on a 5th grade level. You'd be SHOCKED how many students—non IEP, non 504, non ESOL, non FARMS—who are in high school and read on an elementary level but have NEVER had a reading intervention.

We as a school system need to fix that. Change the mindset. Remember there are basic skills these kids don't have. Most of the kids in the halls probably can't read, at least for comprehension. Many still have decoding issues. And it's not always a reading disability. So if we want to fix the hallways, attendance, behaviors, we have to as a society and system stop wanting to just smell our own farts all day and pat ourselves on the back that our students are doing such awesome and cool stuff to become college and career ready (YAY GO US!) and wake up to the reality that not only is reading and math intervention disincentivized in high school, but also in middle school and elementary.

Call me what you want but we gotta fix that.

OK that's it. I could keep going but these three things are keys to fixing these issues IMO. Time to get ready to get on the road! Have a great Friday and weekend!!

I think ALL of these are great ideas with some context.

1) I agree there definitely needs to be more accountability and support from parents/families. I don’t agree that the system for this needs to come from the school system but instead from DHHS and the community. This needs to be something that the school system is flagging and then referring out. I do think these needs to be something that the Counselors and Social Work teams, raise up through the Well Being teams and The Medical Officer so it is worked on at the county level with the appropriate partnerships and visibility needed. Schools and school systems are not community centers and we as a society desperately need to stop balancing all of childhood burdens in their zone. Or if we are going to, greatly revamp what these buildings look like and how they operate and the staff that is contained within.

2) Agree. Maybe this is something that can be suggested as part of the new partnership with Workforce Montgomery as part of the Blueprint.

3)🙌. Please tell this to whoever needs to hear it. I’ve said that this needs to happen in 6th grade. Every sixth grader should be required to take a Study Skills/Executive Functioning/Leadership Development Course for one semester. During which they will also work on a worthwhile SSL Project as a class.

The school system needs to hire several days analyst. Because not everyone is deep diving into the data and thereby they are not asking the right questions or putting the right things in place. At lot of the data is there, it just needs to be brought to light clearly and in a way people can consume. We also need to find better ways to deal with Special Education. It needs to be more streamlined and efficient for all involved. It’s needs more people. It’s need to be an intervention and preventative system and not a reactionary system. And it needs to be communicated as such to remove stigma. Kids shouldn’t have to fail to receive evaluation or treatment. Special Ed teams need some administrative support. Like some Social Work/Counseling students to be given a small stipend and clinical hours to help manage case load paperwork.

Hey all, I'm the OP who wrote that 3-part plan

Thanks for the kind words everyone! It makes me happy to know many agree.

To the person who asked if I'm in a leadership role and said I should be promoted, I appreciate it. I'm in a leadership role in my school. I'm a department head. I don't want to say what my position is because it's kind of a giveaway who I am if someone were to put the pieces together. MCPS paranoia, I guess....but I'm definitely in a higher-level non-admin "actually working with kids and families" department head role.

Also to the person who wrote "Only change I would make is not to wait until Semester 6. Maybe Quarter 8. If student not where they need to be by end of Q8, get them and if applicable the parents help over the summer between 10th-11th grades," as well as the person who added that it's part of the MD Blueprint......awesome! I'm all for having the interventions even earlier that I suggested!

Now, to respond to the person I quoted.

1) I also agree DHHS—not MCPS/school systems—should be the one leading this. It truly is a health issue for a teenager to not be meaningfully engaged in something. It is developmentally threatening to them to just wander around a building or their community all day. It's a slippery slop that can lead to major issues, namely mental health issues. All humans need meaning and purpose. These kids who are not doing anything other than getting in trouble, engaging in unchecked degeneracy, and devolving into illiterate dopamine addicts are far more likely to experience poor health outcomes (read: happiness and stability, which leads to physical and mental health issues) by the time they're only in their 20s.

So yeah, it is a DHHS issue. It's of course also a community issue because it's perpetuating and further normalizing this sense of futility, apathy, and hopelessness among the adults, many of whom experienced negative school outcomes themselves in the 2000s. Let's not forget that many parents of high school aged students are in their mid-30s. Their formative years were during and shortly after the Great Financial Crisis and explosion of social media & smart phones, so they were the initial cohort of young adults (16-24 years old at the time) who shifted to a life spent online in a dopamine-heavy existence that promoted living on their phones.

In other words, there are a lot of parents who also need support and it should be mandatory for them to go through counseling, training, etc. if their school-aged kids are failing in school to a certain degree (attendance, behavior, etc.). It sounds like a heavy-handed approach by the state. But I look at it as a preventative measure. Think of it like this—how many parents in their 30s have spent the last 10-12 years staring at their phones all day, obsessing over social media, and neglecting their kids? Probably hundreds of thousands. And how many have stuck devices in front of their kids, feed them junk food, and let them sit around doing nothing all day since they were toddlers? Again, a ton. And how many also are unaware of the harmful affects this existence poses not just to them as a family and as individuals, but as a public health crisis for society? Probably very few.

Food for thought.

2) Nothing more to add right now other than YES!

3) I'll share a real fact with you about reading levels in my school. I have direct access to all my school's MAP data. As I said, I have done many deep dives into the data. And I know how to interpret it.

BTW, about special education..............let's just say I have a very direct relationship with Special Education at my school. I should probably have an Ed.D. in special education at this point in my career.

Based on MAP-R data, at my high school, there are about 220-240 students with no IEP, no 504, and aren't ESOL who read at about grade 6/7 or worse. And of those roughly 230 "non-coded" students, about 50-60 read at a 3rd or 4th grade level or worse.

It would be interesting to go through this group and see the correlation between hall walking, grad readiness participation, attendance issues, etc.

That is a MASSIVE number of students who are not coded who read on that grade level.

Let's take it a step further—let's factor in all students except for ESOL levels 1-3 and students with severe intellectual disabilities. Now we have about 380 students who read at about grade 6/7 or worse, and of them, a whopping 135 students who read at a 3rd or 4th grade level or worse.

In other words, we have an entire elementary school's worth of students in our MCPS high school—almost 400 total students—who read at least 2-3 grade levels behind their current grade.

In closing, I will keep fighting the good fight.

[Anonymous]

I just don't see this as a huge issue. Punishing kids who aren't interested in school isn't going to help anyone. Maybe make schools more interesting or engaging would help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don't see this as a huge issue. Punishing kids who aren't interested in school isn't going to help anyone. Maybe make schools more interesting or engaging would help.

Agree. MCPS already diverts 99% of its resources to help these struggling students. The other 80% of students who aren't struggling are getting the short change here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don't see this as a huge issue. Punishing kids who aren't interested in school isn't going to help anyone. Maybe make schools more interesting or engaging would help.

LOL You're the problem. Bad kids aren't bad because they are culpable, but because school isn't interesting enough.

Imagine if that's how adults behaved at work? Lashing out at co-workers and bosses because work isn't "interesting" enough for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don't see this as a huge issue. Punishing kids who aren't interested in school isn't going to help anyone. Maybe make schools more interesting or engaging would help.

+1000 the PP was correct. The problem is continuing to focus the bulk of their resources on this small segment of students who doesn't even want to be in school.

[Anonymous]

School doesn't need to be "more interesting." That is BS.

School needs to not be the only option.

And it isn't the only option....but those other options are, I feel, presented in a negative light when compared to school.

That's the problem.

Those "bad kids" don't have to be "bad." They just have to have a dignified, viable, and legitimate alternative pathway that isn't viewed as "where the bad kids go."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a lot on parents too. Hopefully, at the HS level, your child understands they have an increasing level of responsibility in their own education and grades does not = education.

I was pretty clear with my kids that their growth and education was what they put into it.

Timeliness and attendance are fundamentally about respect for themselves and their learning, respect for the teacher and classmates.

When you register for a class, you are essentially saying you’ll attend.

Some kids don't care for school. They never asked to be there and are there reluctantly. The problem is we don't recognize this and like pretend that all kids are the same.

We don’t pretend all kids are the same which is why there is a variety of program offerings including CTE, Internships, and Apprenticeships at the HS level. When we make generalized statements like this it turns off people who are charged with creating and implementing program’s because people often don’t see all the hard worn that has gone into creating and maintaining what is available currently.

Seems like many of these kids who are so disengaged from school and just wandering the halls would benefit from these programs. Are you sure people are aware of this stuff?

It’s hard to be aware of stuff if you’re wandering the halls instead of in class or at least talking your counselor/Admin about why you aren’t in class and what you’d rather be doing. That said, MCPS needs to do a much better job of making students aware of opportunities that exist. They district doesn’t seem to understand how to communicate with student, families, and the community. They either overwhelm with information, much of it unnecessary or don’t provide enough and leave people to search for it. They also need much better academic advising.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/work-based-learning

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/partnerships/summer-rise/

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/career-readiness/plans/hs-plans/

https://futurelinkmd.org/

+162k

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a lot on parents too. Hopefully, at the HS level, your child understands they have an increasing level of responsibility in their own education and grades does not = education.

I was pretty clear with my kids that their growth and education was what they put into it.

Timeliness and attendance are fundamentally about respect for themselves and their learning, respect for the teacher and classmates.

When you register for a class, you are essentially saying you’ll attend.

Some kids don't care for school. They never asked to be there and are there reluctantly. The problem is we don't recognize this and like pretend that all kids are the same.

We don’t pretend all kids are the same which is why there is a variety of program offerings including CTE, Internships, and Apprenticeships at the HS level. When we make generalized statements like this it turns off people who are charged with creating and implementing program’s because people often don’t see all the hard worn that has gone into creating and maintaining what is available currently.

Seems like many of these kids who are so disengaged from school and just wandering the halls would benefit from these programs. Are you sure people are aware of this stuff?

It’s hard to be aware of stuff if you’re wandering the halls instead of in class or at least talking your counselor/Admin about why you aren’t in class and what you’d rather be doing. That said, MCPS needs to do a much better job of making students aware of opportunities that exist. They district doesn’t seem to understand how to communicate with student, families, and the community. They either overwhelm with information, much of it unnecessary or don’t provide enough and leave people to search for it. They also need much better academic advising.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/work-based-learning

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/partnerships/summer-rise/

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/career-readiness/plans/hs-plans/

https://futurelinkmd.org/

+162k

They send so much fluff. Overcompensate info when they undercompensated another time, spend useless $ on tech reminders when they need to find one or two platforms that work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don't see this as a huge issue. Punishing kids who aren't interested in school isn't going to help anyone. Maybe make schools more interesting or engaging would help.

Agree. MCPS already diverts 99% of its resources to help these struggling students. The other 80% of students who aren't struggling are getting the short change here.

But equity demands that. There is now a profitable industry behind: Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (DEI).

The philosophy of DEI is not about fair distribution of your tax money to help your child succeed in MCPS. The philosophy of equity is “equity of outcome.” To get there, the ESOL, IEP, and other struggling groups get 99% of the resources because: equity.