Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?

[Anonymous]

SAHM activities like story time are so isolating for the dads. Unless they know the wife personally, the dads are cut out of socializing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe men do a ton, an equal share let’s say, but are simply less vocal about their contributions and, especially, their complaints. Women, biologically, are programmed to be more emotional. They’re more chatty. They initiate 70% of divorces and 90% if they’re college educated. They’re more flighty, and variant in temperament, and neurotic in general as has been reported by top scientists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

So a woman might complain a lot about feeling the emotional burden of parenthood, and a career, but perhaps that’s just her subjective, emotion-based, rather than a fact-based, objective assessment of her situation, we’re outside observers able to quantify her particular case.

your "study" was self-reported.

Sorry you’re not happy with the results. There are a lot of other studies that show women always score higher than men in levels of neuroticism. That definitely correlates to a perception of disparate levels of domestic contributions between married men and women.

its not the results I'm unhappy with, its the research. You talk about fact-based objective assessments but your study is self-reported the opposite of objective and emotion-based.

and lets also separate unprompted and prompted in the domestic contributions meaning what a man/woman does without having to be told to do it or reminded by the other person.

I think it’s more that women’s levels of neuroticism lead them to take on a lot of additional worrying, work, or generally kid related things, that are unnecessary. Men may not see the utility in that type of behavior, to undertake things that aren’t worth their or their kids time, and therefore are usually not prone to even initiating them. Basically women get all spun up, or hoisted by their own petard, in terms of planning, activities, etc. So of course they feel the emotional load. Because of a proclivity for neuroticism, they engage in neurotic busy work. Then they complain about it, as their personality, biologically, is also prone to conversation and emoting.

My husband said to me, word for word, "what's the point in cleaning because it's just going to get messy again." And we're not taking about dusting the baseboard here. There's such a thing as too much, sure, but I don't know any women with full time jobs and young kids who are doing "too much."

Ha! This is true.
There is some kind of electrical problem with the lights in our laundry room. I’m dealing with it by putting a lamp with an extension cord in there. We make $500k a year, but I just don’t have the capacity to deal with calling an electrician right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maternity leave sets up the paradigm that moms are the primary parent and household manager.

If dads were expected and encouraged to take paid family leave and actually take care of the baby, it would go a long way to supporting a more egalitarian split at home.

I’ve noticed my Scandinavian colleagues seem to have more balanced family responsibilities, and I think this is a big factor

I agree with this, and I would say breastfeeding too is really bad for dads in ways we don’t talk about. I’m in no way against breastfeeding - I did it! But it definitely didn’t help our parenting dynamic. I agree that anecdotally, paternity leave and formula feeding seem to lead to better parenting outcomes. Not saying they are cure alls or main causes of course.

Dads can figure it out. I took 6 months FMLA to stay home with baby while DW went back to work. I often stopped by the office for her to breastfeed, with WFH that would be even easier. Of course Im a low paid Fed so I don’t have to worry that it would “look bad” to my boss or any nonsense like that, but if more dads did take the time to be home, it would make it a nonissue.

You are the millennial dad who lived up to his promises. Well done, man. I hope that your wife appreciates you! Her female co-workers are probably jealous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think men DID want equal partners, to be involved with children and egalitarian marriages. But it's just really, really hard. There's so much working against dual working parents.
-school hours are atrocious
-school is basically closed one day a week at least and you need to figure out coverage
-kids are always sick, all winter long
-parenting is extremely hard
-it's very, very difficult to be successful at your job if you left work at 3pm when school ends every day. My boss would have a fit and I'd miss out on lots of meetings.

Dh and I have figured it out and have a nice 40/60 marriage (I'm the 60%), but it's a combo of zero-5 minute commutes, telework, lots of grandparent help, back up nanny and a lot of work.

+1 word for word

Yup. It is hard to have a marriage with two equal partners that also have full careers. Society isn't set up for it. Men want an equal partner, but they also want to have to make any career sacrifices to do that.

We are pretty equal in terms of actual childcare, although still have a pretty gendered split around certain household things, and I'm the one who is always thinking of my kid before myself. Not to a martyr extent - I do prioritize myself too. But if kid and I are both hunger, she gets the snack first (obviously!!!!) whereas my husband often thinks about his own needs before looking around. I find that pretty boggling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe men do a ton, an equal share let’s say, but are simply less vocal about their contributions and, especially, their complaints. Women, biologically, are programmed to be more emotional. They’re more chatty. They initiate 70% of divorces and 90% if they’re college educated. They’re more flighty, and variant in temperament, and neurotic in general as has been reported by top scientists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

So a woman might complain a lot about feeling the emotional burden of parenthood, and a career, but perhaps that’s just her subjective, emotion-based, rather than a fact-based, objective assessment of her situation, we’re outside observers able to quantify her particular case.

your "study" was self-reported.

Sorry you’re not happy with the results. There are a lot of other studies that show women always score higher than men in levels of neuroticism. That definitely correlates to a perception of disparate levels of domestic contributions between married men and women.

its not the results I'm unhappy with, its the research. You talk about fact-based objective assessments but your study is self-reported the opposite of objective and emotion-based.

and lets also separate unprompted and prompted in the domestic contributions meaning what a man/woman does without having to be told to do it or reminded by the other person.

I think it’s more that women’s levels of neuroticism lead them to take on a lot of additional worrying, work, or generally kid related things, that are unnecessary. Men may not see the utility in that type of behavior, to undertake things that aren’t worth their or their kids time, and therefore are usually not prone to even initiating them. Basically women get all spun up, or hoisted by their own petard, in terms of planning, activities, etc. So of course they feel the emotional load. Because of a proclivity for neuroticism, they engage in neurotic busy work. Then they complain about it, as their personality, biologically, is also prone to conversation and emoting.

My husband said to me, word for word, "what's the point in cleaning because it's just going to get messy again." And we're not taking about dusting the baseboard here. There's such a thing as too much, sure, but I don't know any women with full time jobs and young kids who are doing "too much."

Ha! This is true.
There is some kind of electrical problem with the lights in our laundry room. I’m dealing with it by putting a lamp with an extension cord in there. We make $500k a year, but I just don’t have the capacity to deal with calling an electrician right now.

This is so real.

[Anonymous]

I breastfed for a year, but we really don't have the dynamic some people are talking about, at least not long term. I think the main difference is that my husband had REALLY good paternity leave, and we basically both struggled through the first 3-4 months together.

He couldn't feed her unless I pumped to give him a bottle, but he was just as responsible for nap times, play times, holding the screaming child times..... He knew her as well as I did, except for the breast feeding part.

Dads who have to or chose to go back to work after just a week or two or three really don't have the same newborn experience as a birthing parent who stays home for 12+ weeks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think men DID want equal partners, to be involved with children and egalitarian marriages. But it's just really, really hard. There's so much working against dual working parents.
-school hours are atrocious
-school is basically closed one day a week at least and you need to figure out coverage
-kids are always sick, all winter long
-parenting is extremely hard
-it's very, very difficult to be successful at your job if you left work at 3pm when school ends every day. My boss would have a fit and I'd miss out on lots of meetings.

Dh and I have figured it out and have a nice 40/60 marriage (I'm the 60%), but it's a combo of zero-5 minute commutes, telework, lots of grandparent help, back up nanny and a lot of work.

+1 word for word

Yup. It is hard to have a marriage with two equal partners that also have full careers. Society isn't set up for it. Men want an equal partner, but they also want to have to make any career sacrifices to do that.

We are pretty equal in terms of actual childcare, although still have a pretty gendered split around certain household things, and I'm the one who is always thinking of my kid before myself. Not to a martyr extent - I do prioritize myself too. But if kid and I are both hunger, she gets the snack first (obviously!!!!) whereas my husband often thinks about his own needs before looking around. I find that pretty boggling.

If only men got on planes I don’t think they’d have to tell people to put their own oxygen on before helping others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Solidly millennial here (35) and I can only think of one person in my orbit that is a SAHM.

The men I know pull their weight within their relationships and with the kids, and both sides of the couple have jobs that are fairly equal (I would say most of us are at about $400k HHI.)

I worked my tail off for my career and my husband and I earn about the same. Why would I give that up? I couldn't be with someone who expected me to downshift my career or step away from the workforce... which is fine... because there are plenty of people with different outlooks on the situation and are better suited for each other.

Solidly millennial male (41) here, and opposite for me. Most in my circle have SAHW. Of the two that don’t: one wife works a couple of shifts at the hospital a week. The incremental money is important to that household. The second wife has some high GS job where she still makes less than 20% what her husband makes. The husband doesn’t get it from a *financial aspect*, but he shrugs his shoulders as that was the deal they made.

I think this is really an assortative mating issue. People who want a a SAH arrangement sort into those circles much earlier and date from that perspective because SAH is correlated with other identities people find important. FWIW, my wife told me on our second date that she would work if the family needed it, but she felt it was her calling to be a mother and we’ve been fortunate enough to live that out.

I've always felt that my calling was to be a mother, and I live that out.

I work outside the home, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Solidly millennial here (35) and I can only think of one person in my orbit that is a SAHM.

The men I know pull their weight within their relationships and with the kids, and both sides of the couple have jobs that are fairly equal (I would say most of us are at about $400k HHI.)

I worked my tail off for my career and my husband and I earn about the same. Why would I give that up? I couldn't be with someone who expected me to downshift my career or step away from the workforce... which is fine... because there are plenty of people with different outlooks on the situation and are better suited for each other.

Solidly millennial male (41) here, and opposite for me. Most in my circle have SAHW. Of the two that don’t: one wife works a couple of shifts at the hospital a week. The incremental money is important to that household. The second wife has some high GS job where she still makes less than 20% what her husband makes. The husband doesn’t get it from a *financial aspect*, but he shrugs his shoulders as that was the deal they made.

I think this is really an assortative mating issue. People who want a a SAH arrangement sort into those circles much earlier and date from that perspective because SAH is correlated with other identities people find important. FWIW, my wife told me on our second date that she would work if the family needed it, but she felt it was her calling to be a mother and we’ve been fortunate enough to live that out.

I've always felt that my calling was to be a mother, and I live that out.

I work outside the home, too.

Apologies for being imprecise. She flat out told me her goal and desire was to be a SAHM if financial conditions permitted it. We’ve been fortunate enough to live it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I knew my husband would not be equal but I didn’t expect him to be as bad as he is. He really thinks he does a lot too. I love him and he’s important, but I would have less labor if he didn’t live here. I fantasize about a 50/50 custody schedule even though I don’t actually want that at all. I thought he would step up overtime but he’s just lazy and selfish. That’s the truth.

This is so real.

And yes to the part about having more work if I was a single parent. I'm not saying I want to be a single parent -- I love my DH and get emotional value out of our relationship, plus I do think it's better for kids to be in a home with both parents. But my DH is soooooooo lazy. And he would admit it. It's not just about parenting, though yes he's a lazy parent. He won't schedule a doctor's or dentist appointment FOR HIMSELF. He doesn't like ironing, so he just wear wrinkled clothes, and when something absolutely hast to be ironed, he will put it off until the absolute last minute (and sometimes I offer to do it just so it can be done and we can pack a bag or leave the house or whatever).

I don't just do more childcare and housework. I take care of the car, I do maintenance on the house and yard, I plan our vacations, I research and execute all major appliance, furniture, or car purchases, when we move I do all the real estate stuff plus 90% of the packing and executing the move. I make sure we get kid and family photos and make sure they get sent to grandparents. I select gifts for his parents and brother when he puts it off and puts it off. I wrap all gifts. He also offloads most of his wardrobe maintenance to me by simply never buying clothes to replace his clothes once they are falling apart, and then when it's his birthday or Father's Day or Christmas, he just says "I don't know, I need new pants but I'm not sure what." So I wind up buying most of his clothes, figuring out what is in fashion, what goes with what he has, shopping sales, etc. I do our taxes and manage our retirement accounts. AND I do most of the childcare and the housekeeping (I do basically all the cleaning except he occasionally cleans the kitchen, and I'm primary parent for everything from school to drop off/pick up to arranging childcare to bedtimes and meals and hygiene, etc. -- there is no child-related thing that he takes the lead on).

He does none of this for me. He's never booked a vacation for me, he can't even make a reservation for my birthday -- I do it myself because I've learned that otherwise it won't happen. He doesn't buy my clothes or get the oil changed in my car or make sure the yard is taken care of or replace lightbulbs. If I ask him to do these things (and I MUST ask, he will never do them voluntarily), he will put it off indefinitely or complain he doesn't know how or say "you've always done it before, it's easier if you do it this time."

Stuff he does do, he wants like a freaking Purple Heart for it. If I ever complain about any of the above, he'll point out that he goes to the grocery store more, does about half the cooking, and does the laundry about 30% of the time. He also checks our credit card statement each month to make sure there is nothing unauthorized and makes sure that we have the right amount of money in the checking account to pay off the balance. He also occasionally makes me a cup of tea in the morning without me asking for it. I am grateful for all of these things. But it's not half, it's not even close to half. He's just a very lazy person and I pick up all his slack because we're married and have a kid together and him putting crap off or avoiding it just winds ups screwing me over in some other way later.

And people will refer to my DH as "one of the good ones" because they see him hanging out with our kid and being a good dad, he'll mention cleaning or laundry, he seems engaged with our lives. Bu the doesn't actually do this stuff. He's just kind of vaguely taking credit for the enormous amount of stuff I do that makes our lives function, and peopel don't press him on it because why would they, so from the outside our marriage looks egalitarian, but I honestly think my DH does less than my dad did if you add it all up, because my dad was the clear breadwinner (my mom worked but as a nurse and made very little money back then) and he also did all the yard work and anything related to the car. Whereas DH and I both work and make similar amounts and I handle the stuff my dad used to handle plus everything my mom did, too.

[Anonymous]

They decided to become equitable partners instead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I knew my husband would not be equal but I didn’t expect him to be as bad as he is. He really thinks he does a lot too. I love him and he’s important, but I would have less labor if he didn’t live here. I fantasize about a 50/50 custody schedule even though I don’t actually want that at all. I thought he would step up overtime but he’s just lazy and selfish. That’s the truth.

This is so real.

And yes to the part about having more work if I was a single parent. I'm not saying I want to be a single parent -- I love my DH and get emotional value out of our relationship, plus I do think it's better for kids to be in a home with both parents. But my DH is soooooooo lazy. And he would admit it. It's not just about parenting, though yes he's a lazy parent. He won't schedule a doctor's or dentist appointment FOR HIMSELF. He doesn't like ironing, so he just wear wrinkled clothes, and when something absolutely hast to be ironed, he will put it off until the absolute last minute (and sometimes I offer to do it just so it can be done and we can pack a bag or leave the house or whatever).

I don't just do more childcare and housework. I take care of the car, I do maintenance on the house and yard, I plan our vacations, I research and execute all major appliance, furniture, or car purchases, when we move I do all the real estate stuff plus 90% of the packing and executing the move. I make sure we get kid and family photos and make sure they get sent to grandparents. I select gifts for his parents and brother when he puts it off and puts it off. I wrap all gifts. He also offloads most of his wardrobe maintenance to me by simply never buying clothes to replace his clothes once they are falling apart, and then when it's his birthday or Father's Day or Christmas, he just says "I don't know, I need new pants but I'm not sure what." So I wind up buying most of his clothes, figuring out what is in fashion, what goes with what he has, shopping sales, etc. I do our taxes and manage our retirement accounts. AND I do most of the childcare and the housekeeping (I do basically all the cleaning except he occasionally cleans the kitchen, and I'm primary parent for everything from school to drop off/pick up to arranging childcare to bedtimes and meals and hygiene, etc. -- there is no child-related thing that he takes the lead on).

He does none of this for me. He's never booked a vacation for me, he can't even make a reservation for my birthday -- I do it myself because I've learned that otherwise it won't happen. He doesn't buy my clothes or get the oil changed in my car or make sure the yard is taken care of or replace lightbulbs. If I ask him to do these things (and I MUST ask, he will never do them voluntarily), he will put it off indefinitely or complain he doesn't know how or say "you've always done it before, it's easier if you do it this time."

Stuff he does do, he wants like a freaking Purple Heart for it. If I ever complain about any of the above, he'll point out that he goes to the grocery store more, does about half the cooking, and does the laundry about 30% of the time. He also checks our credit card statement each month to make sure there is nothing unauthorized and makes sure that we have the right amount of money in the checking account to pay off the balance. He also occasionally makes me a cup of tea in the morning without me asking for it. I am grateful for all of these things. But it's not half, it's not even close to half. He's just a very lazy person and I pick up all his slack because we're married and have a kid together and him putting crap off or avoiding it just winds ups screwing me over in some other way later.

And people will refer to my DH as "one of the good ones" because they see him hanging out with our kid and being a good dad, he'll mention cleaning or laundry, he seems engaged with our lives. Bu the doesn't actually do this stuff. He's just kind of vaguely taking credit for the enormous amount of stuff I do that makes our lives function, and peopel don't press him on it because why would they, so from the outside our marriage looks egalitarian, but I honestly think my DH does less than my dad did if you add it all up, because my dad was the clear breadwinner (my mom worked but as a nurse and made very little money back then) and he also did all the yard work and anything related to the car. Whereas DH and I both work and make similar amounts and I handle the stuff my dad used to handle plus everything my mom did, too.

Wait, you are getting so bent out of shape and he does more grocery shopping, half the cooking, and 30% of the laundry? That's a pretty fair split. My car maintenance takes about 1 hour per year. Are you actually changing the oil? Or just taking it somewhere. Are you actually mowing the lawn? Or calling someone to do that? I don't get where this supposedly ridiculously lopsided work load comes in. One guess is that you are very anal about things and/or overscheduled and he just doesn't see the point.

[Anonymous]

I'm not a Millennial; I am technically Gen X. But the answer is that my wife wanted to be a SAHM, or work very part time, so we went with that. I suspect a lot of women make the same choice, not because they are married to someone lazy, but because they affirmatively want that. I know a number of couples that have a lot of tension over either the wife downshifting and the husband feeling put upon, or the wife wanting to downshift and the husband not being on board with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because once the men became fathers they found out they’d be fawned over and praised for doing 1/4 the work of their spouse. Why work harder if you get validation for doing so little?

This is one of those things that I am always surprised isn’t brought up more. My MIL and my mom too, to a lesser extent think my DH walks on water for taking my child to a medical appointment (which I no doubt sch, after finding the doctor and getting necessary referral etc). Both my kids have chronic medical conditions with therapy at least once a week and typically each of them sees a specialist at least once a month. 50 percent would be very different. But given he has a big career (despite me being very vocal I’d rather he downshift regardless of the salary cut) it’s considered amazing he does anything. Neither of our dads ever took us to appointments or anything so yep he’s doing more than that and he IS a good dad. But my MIL will flat out tell him he should focus on his career and not do anything and even playing with the kids gets a gold star (and I guess I should be doing everything even though I also work). So of course he doesn’t want to hear from me he should be doing “more”. It’s very frustrating. I also have experienced that the less they do, the more they forget about how much there is to do. Like at one point in time my husband was actually doing some cooking and grocery shopping and he was very aware of how difficult it is to fed our kids and was more appreciative than he is now that I’m back to essentially doing 100 percent. It is what it is but it is not what I expected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I knew my husband would not be equal but I didn’t expect him to be as bad as he is. He really thinks he does a lot too. I love him and he’s important, but I would have less labor if he didn’t live here. I fantasize about a 50/50 custody schedule even though I don’t actually want that at all. I thought he would step up overtime but he’s just lazy and selfish. That’s the truth.

This is so real.

And yes to the part about having more work if I was a single parent. I'm not saying I want to be a single parent -- I love my DH and get emotional value out of our relationship, plus I do think it's better for kids to be in a home with both parents. But my DH is soooooooo lazy. And he would admit it. It's not just about parenting, though yes he's a lazy parent. He won't schedule a doctor's or dentist appointment FOR HIMSELF. He doesn't like ironing, so he just wear wrinkled clothes, and when something absolutely hast to be ironed, he will put it off until the absolute last minute (and sometimes I offer to do it just so it can be done and we can pack a bag or leave the house or whatever).

I don't just do more childcare and housework. I take care of the car, I do maintenance on the house and yard, I plan our vacations, I research and execute all major appliance, furniture, or car purchases, when we move I do all the real estate stuff plus 90% of the packing and executing the move. I make sure we get kid and family photos and make sure they get sent to grandparents. I select gifts for his parents and brother when he puts it off and puts it off. I wrap all gifts. He also offloads most of his wardrobe maintenance to me by simply never buying clothes to replace his clothes once they are falling apart, and then when it's his birthday or Father's Day or Christmas, he just says "I don't know, I need new pants but I'm not sure what." So I wind up buying most of his clothes, figuring out what is in fashion, what goes with what he has, shopping sales, etc. I do our taxes and manage our retirement accounts. AND I do most of the childcare and the housekeeping (I do basically all the cleaning except he occasionally cleans the kitchen, and I'm primary parent for everything from school to drop off/pick up to arranging childcare to bedtimes and meals and hygiene, etc. -- there is no child-related thing that he takes the lead on).

He does none of this for me. He's never booked a vacation for me, he can't even make a reservation for my birthday -- I do it myself because I've learned that otherwise it won't happen. He doesn't buy my clothes or get the oil changed in my car or make sure the yard is taken care of or replace lightbulbs. If I ask him to do these things (and I MUST ask, he will never do them voluntarily), he will put it off indefinitely or complain he doesn't know how or say "you've always done it before, it's easier if you do it this time."

Stuff he does do, he wants like a freaking Purple Heart for it. If I ever complain about any of the above, he'll point out that he goes to the grocery store more, does about half the cooking, and does the laundry about 30% of the time. He also checks our credit card statement each month to make sure there is nothing unauthorized and makes sure that we have the right amount of money in the checking account to pay off the balance. He also occasionally makes me a cup of tea in the morning without me asking for it. I am grateful for all of these things. But it's not half, it's not even close to half. He's just a very lazy person and I pick up all his slack because we're married and have a kid together and him putting crap off or avoiding it just winds ups screwing me over in some other way later.

And people will refer to my DH as "one of the good ones" because they see him hanging out with our kid and being a good dad, he'll mention cleaning or laundry, he seems engaged with our lives. Bu the doesn't actually do this stuff. He's just kind of vaguely taking credit for the enormous amount of stuff I do that makes our lives function, and peopel don't press him on it because why would they, so from the outside our marriage looks egalitarian, but I honestly think my DH does less than my dad did if you add it all up, because my dad was the clear breadwinner (my mom worked but as a nurse and made very little money back then) and he also did all the yard work and anything related to the car. Whereas DH and I both work and make similar amounts and I handle the stuff my dad used to handle plus everything my mom did, too.

This is exactly my DH as well. I work far more hours than he does and earn much more money.

When his sister asked me if I feel "lucky" that he cooks, I wanted to scream.