Question for those opposed to legacy status

[Anonymous]

So what is the “magic dollar number” that puts a donor family into likely admit territory (assuming the kid has the stats)? 100,000? 1,000,000?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Not rocket science. Simply ignore legacy status, focus on merit 100%.

Candidate deserves it? Gets in.

Doesn't deserve it? Doesn't get in.

Who your parents are should be irrelevant.

Except ... you're using terms like "deserve it." How do you determine who "deserves it?"

What do you do when you have 500 spots and there are 10,000 qualified applicants?

That's when these other criteria become valid, including legacy, affirmative action, etc. Schools build cohorts and communities. They aren't some reward for high achievement.

No, legacy does NOT have to be a criteria for admission. There are many other ways to rank candidates.

Sure there are many ways to rank candidates. Why can’t a school choose to use this one? What ways do you think should be used?

[Anonymous]

Only 1 applicant has made it into harvard from our hs in the last 5 years. according to naviance 4.2, 1430. legacy. I actually don't mind some legacy admits if they get the last look but are 100% qualified, but that's not the reality of how it seems to be used. there are actually several examples of know of - all be in all ivies - just like this. so maybe its just those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Not rocket science. Simply ignore legacy status, focus on merit 100%.

Candidate deserves it? Gets in.

Doesn't deserve it? Doesn't get in.

Who your parents are should be irrelevant.

Except ... you're using terms like "deserve it." How do you determine who "deserves it?"

What do you do when you have 500 spots and there are 10,000 qualified applicants?

That's when these other criteria become valid, including legacy, affirmative action, etc. Schools build cohorts and communities. They aren't some reward for high achievement.

How do you think any, say, sports team would do it?

From those 10,000 qualified applicants you'd find the 500 most qualified.

What do you mean by "most qualified?" Is the person with and 800 Math and 600 Verbal of the SAT more qualified than the person with 700 in each section? Does the person who took AP Latin get a boost over the person who took AP Spanish? If someone took AP Spanish but it turns out they are native speakers at home and just took it for the easy A, they are less qualified now than the kid who sat next to them in class and only got a B plus? Is a kid who got extra credit in his science class and boosted his grade, but his who's mom is a Engineering professor at the local college and basically did his project for him more "qualified" than the kid who didn't enter the science fair because he didn't have time because he was babysitting his siblings after school because his mom was sick? What's more qualified, an A in BC calc in 12tt grade or a B+ in BC calc in 11th grade but that an A in multivariable in 12th grade? Is a kid who plays piano but not in school more qualified than the kid who plays violin in the school orchestra? Is the kid who started high school not speaking any English but managed to get Bs in all his English classes less qualified than the native speaker who got B pluses in the same class? Do you say "oh this year our most qualified applicants were all female psychology majors so sorry math and lit and language professors, no students for you."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

Oxbridge isn’t a college. You’re trying to sound smart and worldly but failing spectacularly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Not rocket science. Simply ignore legacy status, focus on merit 100%.

Candidate deserves it? Gets in.

Doesn't deserve it? Doesn't get in.

Who your parents are should be irrelevant.

Except ... you're using terms like "deserve it." How do you determine who "deserves it?"

What do you do when you have 500 spots and there are 10,000 qualified applicants?

That's when these other criteria become valid, including legacy, affirmative action, etc. Schools build cohorts and communities. They aren't some reward for high achievement.

No, legacy does NOT have to be a criteria for admission. There are many other ways to rank candidates.

Sure there are many ways to rank candidates. Why can’t a school choose to use this one? What ways do you think should be used?

dp..how about something not related to winning the parent lottery and being born to privilege?

[Anonymous]

There's all sorts of colleges out there, plenty of whom are looking for students. To all of you who object to how certain colleges do their admissions, you are free to apply elsewhere.

Seriously, even those who have legacy are frequently rejected from that school and they also face an admissions landscape where they don't have legacy at a dozen other schools they also might be interested in.

There just isn't room at every school for every student and just because your kid is not accepted does not mean the playing field isn't fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

Oxbridge isn’t a college. You’re trying to sound smart and worldly but failing spectacularly.

I know what oxbridge is. I just choose not to spell it out or indicate which uni they went to.

You're an idiot to assume.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have zero issue with kids applying to schools their parents went to, and totally get why some kids might be interested in doing this for a variety of reasons.

I think universities giving heavy preference to legacy applicants over non-legacy applicants has a negative social impact when it comes to admissions to elite schools. The reason why is that an education at an elite institution can be transformative for people, and has the most potential to transform the lives of people who do not currently have connections to elite academia. The more legacy admits to these schools, the more it consolidates the benefits of these schools in families that already have these benefits. I'm not saying they aren't doing something good with them, but for every legacy admit, that's one non-legacy applicant who is rejected. I think we lose something in not seeing those non-legacy admits attend these schools.

If the legacy admit is more qualified, then that will show up in the process without a legacy preference and they will earn their spot.

If the legacy admit and the non-legacy admit are equally qualified, I think there are greater social benefits to admitting the non-legacy students, even if there are certain benefits to the legacy student and the institution in admitting the legacy student.

If you give advantage to the legacy student, we ignore the societal benefits of seeing more families gain access to elite education, especially since we're already talking about highly qualified applicants here.

I would like to see more smart, hardworking students with middle class and/or rural backgrounds, and just more applicants with very limited professional and academic connections, gain access to these institutions. I think it would benefit all of us in the form of a more diverse professional class. Not just racially diverse, but diverse in backgrounds. I view legacy preference as an obstacle to that.

But if all things are equal, why would a private university not be able to choose the legacy over the same equally qualified candidate? If the parents/grandparents already give $$$, it's more likely they will continue to give and even more likely they will give more if the kid attends. It's just another part of the admissions process.

Given that most schools still don't admit all qualified legacy candidates (I doubt legacies are more than 20% at most schools--Harvard is only 14%), and the ones they do admit are largely "qualified", why not? Sure is it fair? well nothing in life is "Fair".
The really rich and famous kids would still get in due to name recognition, even if we eliminated "legacy" unless the admission process goes "name blind".

Fact still remains that at Elite universities, 95% of applicants are "qualified", yet the admission rates are only 5-10%, 9-9.5 out of 10 students wont gain admission.

I went back and highlighted the parts of the my post that respond directly to your response, since you had trouble with them the first time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

Oxbridge isn’t a college. You’re trying to sound smart and worldly but failing spectacularly.

I know what oxbridge is. I just choose not to spell it out or indicate which uni they went to.

You're an idiot to assume.

You literally wrote “it’s still an elite college” with it’s indicating Oxbridge. You’re the idiot here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

Oxbridge isn’t a college. You’re trying to sound smart and worldly but failing spectacularly.

I'm not the PP but you can only apply to either Oxford or Cambridge - you know just as well any anyone else that they are referring to both schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

For a STEM student, Cambridge is about $45,000 plus another 12k in college fees and that doesn't include room and board. That's almost exactly what Harvard costs for full pay students

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergraduate_tuition_fees_2023-24.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am white, from a privileged background, and have parents and grandparents who went to Ivy league schools, Stanford, and other top universities. I don't think legacy status should be considered at all. I mean come on; the truth is the practice does give a leg up to those who are already privileged - aka resource hoarding. It says little to nothing about the applicant themselves. There is just no way to defeat that argument. It is a bs reason to let a kid into a school over another equally qualified applicant (as that is really how its most frequently used). It should not be considered a hook in any way.

I have one question though that I have never been able to find a solution to - how do you encourage alum to donate if it won't help their kid get in? It is the number one reason people donate long term. How do you replace the private scholarships funded for basically the same reason? How do you replace all that money that the school depends on? When most don't have enough to give to have a building named for them, and there is no longer any legacy status bestowed on their kids, how do you get donations from the ordinary graduates?

Schools that got rid of legacy have not had a measurable effect on donations. They are still getting plenty of donations.
Most people give money because they ultimately believe in the school’s mission and values - that is what the big donations are generally about

+1 Not only that, but they could lower the cost and so they don't need to provide that much aide.

Oxbridge is half the cost of Harvard, but it's still an elite college. And they don't look at legacies.

We have a friend in the UK whose kid went to Oxbridge. We were talking to them about how college works here, the cost, the legacy hooks, etc.. and they were just floored.

The US college system of today is beyond absurd. We are encouraging our kids to study abroad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see what seems like a lot of posts from people strongly opposed to “legacy admissions” and I’m curious about this position. I agree that unqualified applicants should not be admitted to any schools. Do you assume that no legacy applicants are qualified for admission to the school their parent attended? That seems odd to me given how important parental expectations are for success in school and life.

Do you mean that no kids should be permitted to apply to the schools their parents attended? How would it even work, when the common app asks for parental information (and that appears to be the basis for first generation applicants)? And how is it different from school that look at demonstrated interest? Why should legacy kids’ interest in attending the school they are familiar with, have a personal/family connection to, and likely grew up knowing about, visiting, rooting for its sports teams, etc not be allowed to follow that interest?

Genuinely curious, I promise.

Truth be told, if the legacy kid does not have the stats, the legacy kid ain't getting in to the legacy school, so don't sweat it too much, OP.