Chevy Chase Retail is Subpar

[Anonymous]

I think the Chevy Chase land company just hugely bungled the redo of their shopping center. Nobody wanted that kind of retail and imo they didn’t get the space right. It’s still like the stores get the worst of the busy street and the parking lots somehow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bethesda Row is a lot nicer to walk around than Friendship Heights. (And somewhat ironically, I find it a lot easier to drive to and park cheaply.) Even in its heyday Mazza and the retail around it was kind of a mess. And as a pp said, owned by different companies and in two different jurisdictions. In the downfall of Friendship, luxury businesses moving to CenterCity was a small factor, but mostly foot traffic and stores just migrated north. .Anthropologie literally picked up and moved to the old Barnes and Noble space. The area around Wisconsin and Western is just not super charming.

Now if you are talking about the Connecticut Avenue strip, that’s ridiculous. CCDC, unlike Greenwich or whatever cute towns have been mentioned, was a subdivision built in the early 1900s with a retail strip and a streetcar. That’s it. Of course the business there are and should be for the locals. Toy store, drug store, grocery store, some restaurants of varying quality. Yes the Safeway is a bit down on its luck.

Brookline is on the Boston border and has a streetcar running through it. No one was talking about Greenwich. Even neighborhoods like Roland Park in Baltinore or Chestnut Hill in Philadelphia, which are the Chevy Chases of those cities (pre WW2 SFHs in the city that were leafy prestigious suburbs within the city when they were built), have more charming retail on their main commercial strips, and these neighborhoods have a fraction of the old money that Chevy Chase has.

Case in point is Roland Ave and the Petit Louis and Johnny’s shopping mall or the Eddie’s of Roland Park grocery up the street from them. These aren’t luxury boutiques, they are quaint, locally owned, upscale places that mirror the charm of the housing stock. I don’t think anyone would describe the Brookville Market shopping strip or the Connecticut Avenue commercial area with of the circle as especially charming, which is unfortunate considering how nice the homes are nearby.

I’m still not getting your point. The Chevy Chase area in DC is fully rented and it can’t extend past Livingston street and it can’t extend East or West.

Its also not walkable to 95% of CC MD…so all those folks have to drive into DC…which if they are already in the car they can just drive to Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But here’s the thing. The people who live in those houses are fine with those strips. They don’t really care what you think.

Back when most of the Safeways in DC had a nickname (Social Safeway was Georgetown; Soviet Safeway in Dupont because the shelves were always empty, Secret Safeway was in Watergate, etc), the nickname for the Safeway in CC was Senior Safeway because all the old folks at the apartments nearby would shop there.

Yes, CC looks a bit worn for wear since so many of those retail buildings were built decades ago. Look at the block with Ramer's Shoes (which has been around since 1982). It looks a bit outdated but the shops are generally fine. Not high end though.

[Anonymous]

You forgot the Salvadoran Safeway, the Sinkhole Safeway and the UnSafeway.

[Anonymous]

That Safeway will never be improved. The building itself is owned by one company and the land under the parking lot is owned by another (Safeway leases both parcels). One of the landowners doesn’t want anything to change without a financial windfall that will make redevelopment financially infeasible for any developer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You forget that Friendship Heights used to be a major hub of retail...at its peak in like 2005, you had a Neiman Marcus, Hechts, Saks Men's store (Saks store is still there), William Sonoma, AMC theatre, etc.

You also had the Chevy Chase Collection with a Cartier, Jimmy Choo, Tiffany (still there), Brooks Brothers (still there), etc.

Nobody would think to open a high-end boutique on CT avenue from Livingston to the Circle, when they were all clustered merely 4/10 of a mile away.

The Internet and Covid killed FH...and to some extent City Center DC killed the Chevy Chase Collection as all the very high end boutiques migrated downtown. As others have mentioned, you also have downtown Bethesda very close by and there you have your Apple store, North Face and many other boutiques and shops.

We will see if FH can make a rebound with the Total Wine opening and the Trader Joe's rumored to open any day now. There is also a Wonder Food Hall supposed to open and some other shops / restaurants.

You acknowledged that Friendship Heights went downhill because of Covid, yet Tysons Galleria has only gotten nicer since then and it has the same high end department stores. So it is not Covid per se because there are a lot of other retail areas in the region that have gotten nicer since 2005. University Park retail in MD is much nicer, City Center, The Wharf, the Mosaic District, Tysons, Clarendon, Ballston, Del Ray, and Old Town are all much nicer than they were in 2005 and none of these places has gotten worse since Covid.

Even places that are immensely walkable from where Supreme Court justices live, like Brookdale Market and the stores in that strip mall, are subpar for the neighborhood. Why can’t a nicer grocery store exist there? Snider’s in Silver Spring and the Grosvenor Market are nicer and they are in much lower end neighborhoods and aren’t surrounded by $2-$3 million homes.

The juxtaposition between Chevy Chase retail and housing stock is incredibly odd.

It's called foot traffic. The areas where retail is thriving are destination shopping centers serving commuter routes and are near hwy interesections or busy metro stops, serving a lot areas nearby where there is also business activity (Offices). Friendship heights didn't seem to be that high traffic area and CC is definitely not it, so it makes no sense for the retailers to invest when nobody but a few older wealthy residents shops there. It's never going to be enough for a shopping center to thrive if it only serves one local community and isnt located along the intersection of commute routes or near office centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You forget that Friendship Heights used to be a major hub of retail...at its peak in like 2005, you had a Neiman Marcus, Hechts, Saks Men's store (Saks store is still there), William Sonoma, AMC theatre, etc.

You also had the Chevy Chase Collection with a Cartier, Jimmy Choo, Tiffany (still there), Brooks Brothers (still there), etc.

Nobody would think to open a high-end boutique on CT avenue from Livingston to the Circle, when they were all clustered merely 4/10 of a mile away.

The Internet and Covid killed FH...and to some extent City Center DC killed the Chevy Chase Collection as all the very high end boutiques migrated downtown. As others have mentioned, you also have downtown Bethesda very close by and there you have your Apple store, North Face and many other boutiques and shops.

We will see if FH can make a rebound with the Total Wine opening and the Trader Joe's rumored to open any day now. There is also a Wonder Food Hall supposed to open and some other shops / restaurants.

You acknowledged that Friendship Heights went downhill because of Covid, yet Tysons Galleria has only gotten nicer since then and it has the same high end department stores. So it is not Covid per se because there are a lot of other retail areas in the region that have gotten nicer since 2005. University Park retail in MD is much nicer, City Center, The Wharf, the Mosaic District, Tysons, Clarendon, Ballston, Del Ray, and Old Town are all much nicer than they were in 2005 and none of these places has gotten worse since Covid.

Even places that are immensely walkable from where Supreme Court justices live, like Brookdale Market and the stores in that strip mall, are subpar for the neighborhood. Why can’t a nicer grocery store exist there? Snider’s in Silver Spring and the Grosvenor Market are nicer and they are in much lower end neighborhoods and aren’t surrounded by $2-$3 million homes.

The juxtaposition between Chevy Chase retail and housing stock is incredibly odd.

It's called foot traffic. The areas where retail is thriving are destination shopping centers serving commuter routes and are near hwy interesections or busy metro stops, serving a lot areas nearby where there is also business activity (Offices). Friendship heights didn't seem to be that high traffic area and CC is definitely not it, so it makes no sense for the retailers to invest when nobody but a few older wealthy residents shops there. It's never going to be enough for a shopping center to thrive if it only serves one local community and isnt located along the intersection of commute routes or near office centers.

Or at least high density residential multifamily. Seriously, anyone asking these questions cannot understand that retail needs people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bethesda Row is a lot nicer to walk around than Friendship Heights. (And somewhat ironically, I find it a lot easier to drive to and park cheaply.) Even in its heyday Mazza and the retail around it was kind of a mess. And as a pp said, owned by different companies and in two different jurisdictions. In the downfall of Friendship, luxury businesses moving to CenterCity was a small factor, but mostly foot traffic and stores just migrated north. .Anthropologie literally picked up and moved to the old Barnes and Noble space. The area around Wisconsin and Western is just not super charming.

Now if you are talking about the Connecticut Avenue strip, that’s ridiculous. CCDC, unlike Greenwich or whatever cute towns have been mentioned, was a subdivision built in the early 1900s with a retail strip and a streetcar. That’s it. Of course the business there are and should be for the locals. Toy store, drug store, grocery store, some restaurants of varying quality. Yes the Safeway is a bit down on its luck.

Brookline is on the Boston border and has a streetcar running through it. No one was talking about Greenwich. Even neighborhoods like Roland Park in Baltinore or Chestnut Hill in Philadelphia, which are the Chevy Chases of those cities (pre WW2 SFHs in the city that were leafy prestigious suburbs within the city when they were built), have more charming retail on their main commercial strips, and these neighborhoods have a fraction of the old money that Chevy Chase has.

Case in point is Roland Ave and the Petit Louis and Johnny’s shopping mall or the Eddie’s of Roland Park grocery up the street from them. These aren’t luxury boutiques, they are quaint, locally owned, upscale places that mirror the charm of the housing stock. I don’t think anyone would describe the Brookville Market shopping strip or the Connecticut Avenue commercial area with of the circle as especially charming, which is unfortunate considering how nice the homes are nearby.

If you are talking about Baltimore and Philly, isn't it cheaper there than CC? Could the rents on commercial RE be simply lower to allow more independent stores, plus more younger people, plus maybe owners of these stores also own the buildings where stores are located? There are a lot of factors. In general the cost of opening and maintaining a store has to be justified by the demand for the services. A balance between the cost of operation and the demand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps because it hasn't been expensive for long enough? Here real estate is expensive because we're close to the nation's capital and workers pay a premium to lower their commute. But it doesn't mean they have the money to spend elsewhere, and perhaps not the temperament either. People working for governments/embassies/international institutions in DC tend not to be flashy types.

Bingo.

Up until the mid-2000s Chevy Chase was somewhere a couple of government workers could afford after trading up from a condo in DC. Back then it was down to earth people with a respectable but not extreme amount of disposable income whose idea of a nice shopping trip was the Gap or Talbot's.

It has only been in recent years that the status-obsessed conspicuous consumers moved in and while they're unfortunately multiplying a very decent portion of the homes are still occupied by normal people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps because it hasn't been expensive for long enough? Here real estate is expensive because we're close to the nation's capital and workers pay a premium to lower their commute. But it doesn't mean they have the money to spend elsewhere, and perhaps not the temperament either. People working for governments/embassies/international institutions in DC tend not to be flashy types.

Bingo.

Up until the mid-2000s Chevy Chase was somewhere a couple of government workers could afford after trading up from a condo in DC. Back then it was down to earth people with a respectable but not extreme amount of disposable income whose idea of a nice shopping trip was the Gap or Talbot's.

It has only been in recent years that the status-obsessed conspicuous consumers moved in and while they're unfortunately multiplying a very decent portion of the homes are still occupied by normal people.

I bet the Median age of CC (both MD and DC) is still quite high...probably 60+. Exacerbated by the apartment / senior living buildings in FH on the MD side which are geared to the elderly.

They may be wealthy, but just have no interest in shopping at boutiques and what not. I think it's the mistake many of the high-end shops made at the CC Collection. They saw high median wealth figures, but didn't appreciate who has all that wealth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You forget that Friendship Heights used to be a major hub of retail...at its peak in like 2005, you had a Neiman Marcus, Hechts, Saks Men's store (Saks store is still there), William Sonoma, AMC theatre, etc.

You also had the Chevy Chase Collection with a Cartier, Jimmy Choo, Tiffany (still there), Brooks Brothers (still there), etc.

Nobody would think to open a high-end boutique on CT avenue from Livingston to the Circle, when they were all clustered merely 4/10 of a mile away.

The Internet and Covid killed FH...and to some extent City Center DC killed the Chevy Chase Collection as all the very high end boutiques migrated downtown. As others have mentioned, you also have downtown Bethesda very close by and there you have your Apple store, North Face and many other boutiques and shops.

We will see if FH can make a rebound with the Total Wine opening and the Trader Joe's rumored to open any day now. There is also a Wonder Food Hall supposed to open and some other shops / restaurants.

You acknowledged that Friendship Heights went downhill because of Covid, yet Tysons Galleria has only gotten nicer since then and it has the same high end department stores. So it is not Covid per se because there are a lot of other retail areas in the region that have gotten nicer since 2005. University Park retail in MD is much nicer, City Center, The Wharf, the Mosaic District, Tysons, Clarendon, Ballston, Del Ray, and Old Town are all much nicer than they were in 2005 and none of these places has gotten worse since Covid.

Even places that are immensely walkable from where Supreme Court justices live, like Brookdale Market and the stores in that strip mall, are subpar for the neighborhood. Why can’t a nicer grocery store exist there? Snider’s in Silver Spring and the Grosvenor Market are nicer and they are in much lower end neighborhoods and aren’t surrounded by $2-$3 million homes.

The juxtaposition between Chevy Chase retail and housing stock is incredibly odd.

The areas where retail is thriving are destination shopping centers serving commuter routes and are near hwy interesections or busy metro stops, serving a lot areas nearby where there is also business activity (Offices). Friendship heights didn't seem to be that high traffic area and CC is definitely not it, so it makes no sense for the retailers to invest when nobody but a few older wealthy residents shops there. It's never going to be enough for a shopping center to thrive if it only serves one local community and isnt located along the intersection of commute routes or near office centers.

Del Ray has a thriving small retail main street without being next to large offices or apartment buildings, on a heavy commuter route or a Metro stop.

It’s pleasant to walk there. Just like it’s pleasant to walk at The Wharf or through Clarendon.

Would be nearly impossible to make the retail stretch of Chevy Chase pleasant to walk along, it is an ugly road with 7 lanes to cross: https://maps.app.goo.gl/82i2vTc6TVzfgA6Y9

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You forget that Friendship Heights used to be a major hub of retail...at its peak in like 2005, you had a Neiman Marcus, Hechts, Saks Men's store (Saks store is still there), William Sonoma, AMC theatre, etc.

You also had the Chevy Chase Collection with a Cartier, Jimmy Choo, Tiffany (still there), Brooks Brothers (still there), etc.

Nobody would think to open a high-end boutique on CT avenue from Livingston to the Circle, when they were all clustered merely 4/10 of a mile away.

The Internet and Covid killed FH...and to some extent City Center DC killed the Chevy Chase Collection as all the very high end boutiques migrated downtown. As others have mentioned, you also have downtown Bethesda very close by and there you have your Apple store, North Face and many other boutiques and shops.

We will see if FH can make a rebound with the Total Wine opening and the Trader Joe's rumored to open any day now. There is also a Wonder Food Hall supposed to open and some other shops / restaurants.

You acknowledged that Friendship Heights went downhill because of Covid, yet Tysons Galleria has only gotten nicer since then and it has the same high end department stores. So it is not Covid per se because there are a lot of other retail areas in the region that have gotten nicer since 2005. University Park retail in MD is much nicer, City Center, The Wharf, the Mosaic District, Tysons, Clarendon, Ballston, Del Ray, and Old Town are all much nicer than they were in 2005 and none of these places has gotten worse since Covid.

Even places that are immensely walkable from where Supreme Court justices live, like Brookdale Market and the stores in that strip mall, are subpar for the neighborhood. Why can’t a nicer grocery store exist there? Snider’s in Silver Spring and the Grosvenor Market are nicer and they are in much lower end neighborhoods and aren’t surrounded by $2-$3 million homes.

The juxtaposition between Chevy Chase retail and housing stock is incredibly odd.

The areas where retail is thriving are destination shopping centers serving commuter routes and are near hwy interesections or busy metro stops, serving a lot areas nearby where there is also business activity (Offices). Friendship heights didn't seem to be that high traffic area and CC is definitely not it, so it makes no sense for the retailers to invest when nobody but a few older wealthy residents shops there. It's never going to be enough for a shopping center to thrive if it only serves one local community and isnt located along the intersection of commute routes or near office centers.

Del Ray has a thriving small retail main street without being next to large offices or apartment buildings, on a heavy commuter route or a Metro stop.

It’s pleasant to walk there. Just like it’s pleasant to walk at The Wharf or through Clarendon.

Would be nearly impossible to make the retail stretch of Chevy Chase pleasant to walk along, it is an ugly road with 7 lanes to cross: https://maps.app.goo.gl/82i2vTc6TVzfgA6Y9

You could in fact replicate something like the Pike District in N Bethesda in Friendship Heights. However, it's a heavy lift with different owners of different properties and different govt jurisdictions. It doesn't help that they decided to turn the old L&T into the bus depot vs. leaving the bus depot where it is and trying to create a holistic plan in coordination with the development of the GEICO area. You could also do a ton with the surface lots at the Saks building.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You forget that Friendship Heights used to be a major hub of retail...at its peak in like 2005, you had a Neiman Marcus, Hechts, Saks Men's store (Saks store is still there), William Sonoma, AMC theatre, etc.

You also had the Chevy Chase Collection with a Cartier, Jimmy Choo, Tiffany (still there), Brooks Brothers (still there), etc.

Nobody would think to open a high-end boutique on CT avenue from Livingston to the Circle, when they were all clustered merely 4/10 of a mile away.

The Internet and Covid killed FH...and to some extent City Center DC killed the Chevy Chase Collection as all the very high end boutiques migrated downtown. As others have mentioned, you also have downtown Bethesda very close by and there you have your Apple store, North Face and many other boutiques and shops.

We will see if FH can make a rebound with the Total Wine opening and the Trader Joe's rumored to open any day now. There is also a Wonder Food Hall supposed to open and some other shops / restaurants.

You acknowledged that Friendship Heights went downhill because of Covid, yet Tysons Galleria has only gotten nicer since then and it has the same high end department stores. So it is not Covid per se because there are a lot of other retail areas in the region that have gotten nicer since 2005. University Park retail in MD is much nicer, City Center, The Wharf, the Mosaic District, Tysons, Clarendon, Ballston, Del Ray, and Old Town are all much nicer than they were in 2005 and none of these places has gotten worse since Covid.

Even places that are immensely walkable from where Supreme Court justices live, like Brookdale Market and the stores in that strip mall, are subpar for the neighborhood. Why can’t a nicer grocery store exist there? Snider’s in Silver Spring and the Grosvenor Market are nicer and they are in much lower end neighborhoods and aren’t surrounded by $2-$3 million homes.

The juxtaposition between Chevy Chase retail and housing stock is incredibly odd.

The areas where retail is thriving are destination shopping centers serving commuter routes and are near hwy interesections or busy metro stops, serving a lot areas nearby where there is also business activity (Offices). Friendship heights didn't seem to be that high traffic area and CC is definitely not it, so it makes no sense for the retailers to invest when nobody but a few older wealthy residents shops there. It's never going to be enough for a shopping center to thrive if it only serves one local community and isnt located along the intersection of commute routes or near office centers.

Del Ray has a thriving small retail main street without being next to large offices or apartment buildings, on a heavy commuter route or a Metro stop.

It’s pleasant to walk there. Just like it’s pleasant to walk at The Wharf or through Clarendon.

Would be nearly impossible to make the retail stretch of Chevy Chase pleasant to walk along, it is an ugly road with 7 lanes to cross: https://maps.app.goo.gl/82i2vTc6TVzfgA6Y9

You could in fact replicate something like the Pike District in N Bethesda in Friendship Heights. However, it's a heavy lift with different owners of different properties and different govt jurisdictions. It doesn't help that they decided to turn the old L&T into the bus depot vs. leaving the bus depot where it is and trying to create a holistic plan in coordination with the development of the GEICO area. You could also do a ton with the surface lots at the Saks building.

This x 1,000. It is just an incredibly poorly planned area that wastes the potential of being right next to two of the nicest neighborhoods in the region (CC and Bethesda) and the fact that it’s right over a Metro stop. DC and MoCo leaders could work together on a grand plan to revitalize the area if they wanted to. Hopefully the GEICO project will give some momentum to revitalizing the entire area but I’m not holding out hopes that it will be done in the next 20 years.

[Anonymous]

Wonder if it would be politically possible to cut the 7 lane road down to 4 lanes.

Those cutting through to commute would fight it. But it would create a much nicer neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You forget that Friendship Heights used to be a major hub of retail...at its peak in like 2005, you had a Neiman Marcus, Hechts, Saks Men's store (Saks store is still there), William Sonoma, AMC theatre, etc.

You also had the Chevy Chase Collection with a Cartier, Jimmy Choo, Tiffany (still there), Brooks Brothers (still there), etc.

Nobody would think to open a high-end boutique on CT avenue from Livingston to the Circle, when they were all clustered merely 4/10 of a mile away.

The Internet and Covid killed FH...and to some extent City Center DC killed the Chevy Chase Collection as all the very high end boutiques migrated downtown. As others have mentioned, you also have downtown Bethesda very close by and there you have your Apple store, North Face and many other boutiques and shops.

We will see if FH can make a rebound with the Total Wine opening and the Trader Joe's rumored to open any day now. There is also a Wonder Food Hall supposed to open and some other shops / restaurants.

You acknowledged that Friendship Heights went downhill because of Covid, yet Tysons Galleria has only gotten nicer since then and it has the same high end department stores. So it is not Covid per se because there are a lot of other retail areas in the region that have gotten nicer since 2005. University Park retail in MD is much nicer, City Center, The Wharf, the Mosaic District, Tysons, Clarendon, Ballston, Del Ray, and Old Town are all much nicer than they were in 2005 and none of these places has gotten worse since Covid.

Even places that are immensely walkable from where Supreme Court justices live, like Brookdale Market and the stores in that strip mall, are subpar for the neighborhood. Why can’t a nicer grocery store exist there? Snider’s in Silver Spring and the Grosvenor Market are nicer and they are in much lower end neighborhoods and aren’t surrounded by $2-$3 million homes.

The juxtaposition between Chevy Chase retail and housing stock is incredibly odd.

The areas where retail is thriving are destination shopping centers serving commuter routes and are near hwy interesections or busy metro stops, serving a lot areas nearby where there is also business activity (Offices). Friendship heights didn't seem to be that high traffic area and CC is definitely not it, so it makes no sense for the retailers to invest when nobody but a few older wealthy residents shops there. It's never going to be enough for a shopping center to thrive if it only serves one local community and isnt located along the intersection of commute routes or near office centers.

Del Ray has a thriving small retail main street without being next to large offices or apartment buildings, on a heavy commuter route or a Metro stop.

It’s pleasant to walk there. Just like it’s pleasant to walk at The Wharf or through Clarendon.

Would be nearly impossible to make the retail stretch of Chevy Chase pleasant to walk along, it is an ugly road with 7 lanes to cross: https://maps.app.goo.gl/82i2vTc6TVzfgA6Y9

You could in fact replicate something like the Pike District in N Bethesda in Friendship Heights. However, it's a heavy lift with different owners of different properties and different govt jurisdictions. It doesn't help that they decided to turn the old L&T into the bus depot vs. leaving the bus depot where it is and trying to create a holistic plan in coordination with the development of the GEICO area. You could also do a ton with the surface lots at the Saks building.

This x 1,000. It is just an incredibly poorly planned area that wastes the potential of being right next to two of the nicest neighborhoods in the region (CC and Bethesda) and the fact that it’s right over a Metro stop. DC and MoCo leaders could work together on a grand plan to revitalize the area if they wanted to. Hopefully the GEICO project will give some momentum to revitalizing the entire area but I’m not holding out hopes that it will be done in the next 20 years.

This is the problem...it's only 1.5 miles from downtown Bethesda, so the competition is really almost next door.