Girls as boy scouts

[Anonymous]

cburkhardt wrote:Dear Everyone:

I am the Scoutmaster of a Scouts BSA Troop to which my daughter and 26 other young women belong. We have 18 adult involved, and the majority are women. I am glad there is so much interest in this topic, because it reflects that youth service organizations are as relevant and important as ever. Otherwise there would not be such passion in the discussion.

The BSA is no longer a reasonable proxy for any particular political or religious point of view. It has culturally returned to what it was in the late 70’s — a non-denominational and non-discriminatory organization helps young people make good ethical choices. The BSA is no longer a good organization to attack for cultural reasons. The right and the left vigorously attack us for either “abandoning values” or “stealing” female membership and perceived accompanying financial support away from other youth service organizations. Both are wrong for fundamental reasons beyond the scope of this posting.

What I do know is that other youth service organizations are expending significant professional time and treasure attacking the BSA as a matter of formal organization policy. The BSA is not responding in like manner, preferring to provide the young women of America an option to select a different option, if they wish. And what is the result in the first 60 days? 1,800 new Scouts BSA troops. And, we now have over 90 thousand girls enrolled in our Cub and Scouts BSA programs.

The BSA will continue to fulfill its mission for young men and women long after the current disputes are forgotten. It will continue to urge young people to develop skills to that they can choose what is good and decent for them, their families and our Country. For those who are disappointed that the BSA has re-focused on its essential mission, I ask you to re-examine your views.

Our girls and volunteer committee do not care who you are or what you believe. They welcome you unconditionally to fully explore the great outdoors and learn skills that girls can use to guide their lives.

[Anonymous]

Girl Scout mom and leader and Cub Scout mom and leader and here. I like both organizations, but their styles/ value propositions are distinct. We have lived in multiple locations and these are the consistent differences Inhave seen across the councils/ packs.

Girl Scouts
Single gender experience. It is designed to be Girl-led. That is both a plus and a major risk. If you end up in a Troop with lots of girls who like arts and crafts and their moms are uncomfortable with engineering and the outdoors, then you spend a lot of time with glitter and cookies. There are a lot of parents who “drop off” at Girl Scouts. So the success of the troop is very leader and group dynamic- dependent.

In our troop we use a lot of tactics to get the girls to choose a variety of badge work and we keep an eye on the progressive outdoor-type skills so we can keep taking larger adventures as a troop.

There is also less infrastructure to support the troop leaders, most training is voluntary and relatively infrequently scheduled. The electronic infrastructure is less robust (badge tracking/ communication/ websites) than what the Boy Scouts provide. OTOH his allows the girls to be their own webmasters and communication directors.

The Girl Scouts do not require church or organization sponsorship. So if you have a group of girls and can figure out a place to meet, you have a troop. That is another factor that drives the variable quality.

Boy Scouts/ Cub Scouts
This is no longer a single gender experience. The send are currently divided by gender, but that is already slipping in practice in my city due to small enrollment numbers of girls. My son doesn’t mind since he has a sister, but it does Fundamentally alter the experience to some degree. It might be an overall societal plus, but the jury is out on that. I respect the leaders who have stepped up to lead the first girl dens.

There is a lot of structure and associated leader training in Boy Scouts. In one sense that is helpful in creating a consistent experience across troops. However, if your interests don’t align with the curriculum then you don’t have many choices. You have to do the “core” requirements to advance. We have lost some boys due to this, the requirements were too much when balanced against the optional badge work they were interested in.

The Boy Scout software programs are really helpful in keeping things organized and communicating with parents. There are also a lot of very dedicated volunteers who run Boy Scout leader training programs constantly. So you can relatively easily get the leader certifications you need to do things like take the boys camping. Since those activities are required, they have to make sure the leaders are equipped to run those badge experiences.

The Boy Scout troops do have to have an organizational sponsor. So that can be a church or school or other group. But that is a sign of some organized setup prior to launching a pack. So there is already a critical mass of adults ready to help. I haven’t seen any Catholic Churches dumping Boy Scouts.

The product sales in scouting are really poorly run and there isn’t much for the boys to learn from it. It is a real disappointment compared to the Girl Scout cookie sales. But our Cub Scout helps with Girl Scout cookies and our Girl Scout goes along on family camp outs with the Boy Scouts. So we get a bit of the best of both worlds.

Both of my troops have kids with special needs. The Boy Scouts do a pretty good job at providing guidance for being inclusive if you seek it out. The rigidity of the requirements makes this critical. And I suspect it will get harder as the boys get older. The girl scouts’ girl-led design makes inclusivity easier, but there is less guidance.

I think the Girl Scouts is wasting money suing the Boy Scouts. They should use their resources more wisely and make more badges like the new space, robotics and engineering ones. But the Boy Scouts should own that they went after girls because they lost the Mormons in an attempt to retain their membership numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Girl Scout mom and leader and Cub Scout mom and leader and here. I like both organizations, but their styles/ value propositions are distinct. We have lived in multiple locations and these are the consistent differences Inhave seen across the councils/ packs.

Girl Scouts
Single gender experience. It is designed to be Girl-led. That is both a plus and a major risk. If you end up in a Troop with lots of girls who like arts and crafts and their moms are uncomfortable with engineering and the outdoors, then you spend a lot of time with glitter and cookies. There are a lot of parents who “drop off” at Girl Scouts. So the success of the troop is very leader and group dynamic- dependent.

In our troop we use a lot of tactics to get the girls to choose a variety of badge work and we keep an eye on the progressive outdoor-type skills so we can keep taking larger adventures as a troop.

There is also less infrastructure to support the troop leaders, most training is voluntary and relatively infrequently scheduled. The electronic infrastructure is less robust (badge tracking/ communication/ websites) than what the Boy Scouts provide. OTOH his allows the girls to be their own webmasters and communication directors.

The Girl Scouts do not require church or organization sponsorship. So if you have a group of girls and can figure out a place to meet, you have a troop. That is another factor that drives the variable quality.

Boy Scouts/ Cub Scouts
This is no longer a single gender experience. The send are currently divided by gender, but that is already slipping in practice in my city due to small enrollment numbers of girls. My son doesn’t mind since he has a sister, but it does Fundamentally alter the experience to some degree. It might be an overall societal plus, but the jury is out on that. I respect the leaders who have stepped up to lead the first girl dens.

There is a lot of structure and associated leader training in Boy Scouts. In one sense that is helpful in creating a consistent experience across troops. However, if your interests don’t align with the curriculum then you don’t have many choices. You have to do the “core” requirements to advance. We have lost some boys due to this, the requirements were too much when balanced against the optional badge work they were interested in.

The Boy Scout software programs are really helpful in keeping things organized and communicating with parents. There are also a lot of very dedicated volunteers who run Boy Scout leader training programs constantly. So you can relatively easily get the leader certifications you need to do things like take the boys camping. Since those activities are required, they have to make sure the leaders are equipped to run those badge experiences.

The Boy Scout troops do have to have an organizational sponsor. So that can be a church or school or other group. But that is a sign of some organized setup prior to launching a pack. So there is already a critical mass of adults ready to help. I haven’t seen any Catholic Churches dumping Boy Scouts.

The product sales in scouting are really poorly run and there isn’t much for the boys to learn from it. It is a real disappointment compared to the Girl Scout cookie sales. But our Cub Scout helps with Girl Scout cookies and our Girl Scout goes along on family camp outs with the Boy Scouts. So we get a bit of the best of both worlds.

Both of my troops have kids with special needs. The Boy Scouts do a pretty good job at providing guidance for being inclusive if you seek it out. The rigidity of the requirements makes this critical. And I suspect it will get harder as the boys get older. The girl scouts’ girl-led design makes inclusivity easier, but there is less guidance.

I think the Girl Scouts is wasting money suing the Boy Scouts. They should use their resources more wisely and make more badges like the new space, robotics and engineering ones. But the Boy Scouts should own that they went after girls because they lost the Mormons in an attempt to retain their membership numbers.

Perhaps certain segments of BSA should stop blatantly ripping off GSUSA slogans, promotions, etc., and pretending that they represent both organizations. Then GSUSA wouldn't have cause to sue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a Girl Scout Brownie through Senior. My DS is working on his Eagle Scout rank now. I loved being a GS, but Boy Scouts is the far superior program.

GS mom, BS son. GS camping and camps for Cub Scout age kids are far superior.

Girl Scout mom with son in Scouts BSA here. I'll agree, I think our Girl Scouts camps in the DC region are good. And, I prefer the former younger scout program in Girl Scouts (the one we had before the Journeys/"Leadership Experience" came down the pike) to the current Cub Scout program.

The current Girl Scout Daisy/Brownie/Junior program is not great and the program for older girls (Cadette/Senior/Ambassador) is even worse. Leaders will find a way to make it work, but those who do it best will admit that they customize nearly everything and are constantly reinventing the wheel because the program materials are so useless.

My co leader and I worked hard through the years to help our girls have a meaningful experience but everything we did that they enjoyed was NOT part of the official programming. At one point we were buying old Girl Scout badges off the black market (the GREAT old Junior badges and Cadette Interest Projects or Councils Own badges) or using Boy Scout materials found online.

Girl Scouts USA is not and was not interested in hearing that their materials made Scouting difficult to implement in a real world troop without a captive audience. It seems they wrote the curriculum (it really reads like a curriculum) for a classroom where are leader/teacher can basically count on having her girls 95% of the time. Not based on girls showing up, skipping a few meetings, coming back, which is what happens in the real world of an extracurriculuar club. They are not and were not interested in hearing feed back that the materials were dumbed down or too much like school. They are paying lip service to the idea of Girls Can Do Anything and are heavily promoting "STEM" with this new Robotics and Coding badges, but the badges themselves are written poorly, dumbed down, and are not very skill based.

[Anonymous]

Good analysis on the organization differences. The Mormons gave notice in 2016 after don’t ask don’t tell was dropped and the internal conversation on girls started then. Really more of a renewal of previous talks. What many BSA volunteers wanted years ago suddenly became possible. The new membership should come close to replacing the Mormon contributions and we will no longer have the internal organizational tensions. Had to wait a couple of years so multiple changes did not hit too quickly. The BSA is far better for the long term as a result of these membership changes. Sorry some GS leaders are upset, but they will be just fine. I have read they are continuing to grow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good analysis on the organization differences. The Mormons gave notice in 2016 after don’t ask don’t tell was dropped and the internal conversation on girls started then. Really more of a renewal of previous talks. What many BSA volunteers wanted years ago suddenly became possible. The new membership should come close to replacing the Mormon contributions and we will no longer have the internal organizational tensions. Had to wait a couple of years so multiple changes did not hit too quickly. The BSA is far better for the long term as a result of these membership changes. Sorry some GS leaders are upset, but they will be just fine. I have read they are continuing to grow.

Which shouldn't be too hard to do

[Anonymous]

There is nothing wrong with BSA's figuring out it needed to find a new strategy, and then following it. Adoption of don't ask don't tell in the 90's was a mistake that catastrophically damaged the BSA's good name and caused it to lose a generation of members, leaders and chartered organizations who were unwilling to affiliate with it. Repairing that mistake will, in the end and in total, cost the BSA probably about 21% of its current membership (including the 3% "Trail Life" departure and 18% Mormon departure). Leaders of Boy Scout Troops have wanted to have all-girl troops all along for their daughters and friends. I hope it will more than make-up for those departure losses and the earlier membership losses of the last two decades with the welcoming of girls. If it had not taken these steps, BSA would be continuing down its old path of becoming an ever-smaller and specialized group of suburbanized kids advocating narrow political and faith points of view. It looks to be succeeding at the early stages in terms of membership and I applaud that. I don't view it as a money grab -- just the outcome of sustainable decision-making for the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My new band name: Gays and girls.

This. So much THIS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are no more Boy Scouts.

It's a dead organization.

If it wasn’t after 8000 child rapist leaders, it will be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is nothing wrong with BSA's figuring out it needed to find a new strategy, and then following it. Adoption of don't ask don't tell in the 90's was a mistake that catastrophically damaged the BSA's good name and caused it to lose a generation of members, leaders and chartered organizations who were unwilling to affiliate with it. Repairing that mistake will, in the end and in total, cost the BSA probably about 21% of its current membership (including the 3% "Trail Life" departure and 18% Mormon departure). Leaders of Boy Scout Troops have wanted to have all-girl troops all along for their daughters and friends. I hope it will more than make-up for those departure losses and the earlier membership losses of the last two decades with the welcoming of girls. If it had not taken these steps, BSA would be continuing down its old path of becoming an ever-smaller and specialized group of suburbanized kids advocating narrow political and faith points of view. It looks to be succeeding at the early stages in terms of membership and I applaud that. I don't view it as a money grab -- just the outcome of sustainable decision-making for the kids.

What’s the plan for marketing the hiding of all the sex offender troop leaders?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was a Girl Scout Brownie through Senior. My DS is working on his Eagle Scout rank now. I loved being a GS, but Boy Scouts is the far superior program.

GS today is far different from when most of today's adults were kids. Please don't compare today's GS program with what you experienced as a child or teen. Blanket statements like "one is superior" do a disservice to both GS and BS and only serve to create stereotypes of both programs. Anyone interested in either needs to learn what the programs have available today. And parents need to learn that what they see one troop doing in one place is not what every troop does, in GS or in BS. So many assumptions out there about GS are inaccurate and sadly, some BS parents and leaders are using those assumptions to claim "superiority" when we should all be on the same page--providing programs that help kids and teens grow and mature.
-- Longtime GS leader of troops at all age levels

[Anonymous]

Some GS wanted to join the BSA. So BSA let them in after years of discussion. Once they were in, some people posted dumb quotes like, now we kick the boys out and take over. Now that the BSA let girls in, the GS is suing BSA for causing confusion with some of the GS...and the GS are seeing diminishing membership in the GS. Doesn't even make sense. Can't satisfiy all.

[cburkhardt]

I agree with “long time GS Leader”. Both organizations have great merits in our society and only parents and youth who have examined both can decide in an informed manner. A long-time BSA leader myself who is on the front lines of our formation of a Scouts BSA Troop for Girls, I have to observe that I have yet to hear claims of program superiority by BSA folks. In our Troop, we have several girls who appreciate the differences, and belong to both organizations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:clearly Boy Scouts is struggling with #s.

let's no allow anyone gay
let's not allow any gay leaders

Oh crap - we need money - I know - let's let girls in. They would love to join our exclusive organization.

?? wow, you are really behind the times.