Social pragmatic communication disorder

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anecdotally I have a child with social pragmatic disorder (can't get the name straight) and a close family member on the spectrum. Here are some differences that I notice (sample size obviously quite small, so it's personal experience):

1. ASD seems to have significantly more and severe sensory integration issues
2. Anxiety and rigid thinking is higher with ASD
3. This is a big one - social communication (DC) seems to be able to reflect on social situations in hindsight. He can see what went wrong, even if he needs a lot of practice changing behavior. ASD, not as able to be reflective because of metacognitive issues.

I can see that this might upset folks- it's not intended to generalize- it's just the unusual experience of one person being able to observe these two conditions side by side.

I have a DS, 9, with ASD/ Asperger's and ADHD and I don't find your points 1, 2 and 3 to be true at all. People who meet DS in real life don't think he has any diagnosis even when they have known him for several yrs unless I tell them and when I tell people they are always surprised (most people have a stereotypical view of ASD like you.)

DS does not have severe sensory issues and never has. No clinical level of anxiety according to his neuropsych eval. His rigid thinking is not particularly noticible and he has no problems reflecting on his actions at all.

Never heard another autism parent say this. Autism is severe by definition.

No, it's not. Just look at a kid who is in a MAP vs. a kid who is non-verbal. There is a big range of severity.

It's all still severe. There are three levels of severity. Not one says they go for years without anyone suspecting they are autistic.

Oh, please, there are plenty of NT people of whom spouses, family, co-workers, or acquaintances suspect that they are on the spectrum.

Yes. Lots of armchair quarterbacking in the autism diagnosis game. But the earlier PP said no one even suspected her child was autistic, even after years of knowing him. This doesn't fit with autism.

Yeah, according to her. Who cares what delusion she's operating under.

That's not fair. I don't think there's a consensus among specialists about what type of child fits under the autism diagnosis. Have you read that article in a scientific publication a few years ago about how autism presents differently in girls than boys and sometimes no one suspects the girls have autism? I don't necessarily agree with the article's viewpoint because by the DSM definition it's supposed to impact every day life and if it doesn't how could they be on the spectrum but it gives you a sense of the disagreement about what the condition really means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

OP here, thank you for this. What was the therapy that was most helpful?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

OP here, thank you for this. What was the therapy that was most helpful?

My DS did a year's worth of social skills therapy and continues with one-on-one therapy for executive functions. EF issues go far beyond organization and time and materials management...and in DS's case heavily impact his social communication and understanding. Initially the SLP thought his social issues were language based- but I really think it's EF. There is a lot of processing that goes into social communication.

The social skills therapy helped a lot- it also introduced him to other boys who with similar issues who were far less judgmental. It was the first time he made friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

OP here, thank you for this. What was the therapy that was most helpful?

My DS did a year's worth of social skills therapy and continues with one-on-one therapy for executive functions. EF issues go far beyond organization and time and materials management...and in DS's case heavily impact his social communication and understanding. Initially the SLP thought his social issues were language based- but I really think it's EF. There is a lot of processing that goes into social communication.

The social skills therapy helped a lot- it also introduced him to other boys who with similar issues who were far less judgmental. It was the first time he made friends.

Thank you. What age did you start? Was social skills once a week?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here in responses to the above. DS doesn't have any rigid behaviors, repetitive movements, or other common behaviors associated with ASD. I always wonder if that once we get his language a bit more caught up, if he'll "just" be introverted and awkward.

OP, my kid doesn't have what I would consider to be those behaviors earlier but now has ASD-ADHD diagnosis. Had social pragmatic delays earlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

OP here, thank you for this. What was the therapy that was most helpful?

My DS did a year's worth of social skills therapy and continues with one-on-one therapy for executive functions. EF issues go far beyond organization and time and materials management...and in DS's case heavily impact his social communication and understanding. Initially the SLP thought his social issues were language based- but I really think it's EF. There is a lot of processing that goes into social communication.

The social skills therapy helped a lot- it also introduced him to other boys who with similar issues who were far less judgmental. It was the first time he made friends.

Thank you. What age did you start? Was social skills once a week?

We started right after my child was diagnosed. He was seven (almost eight). We did group therapy and one-on-one therapy for a year (so, two sessions per week). After a year, we stopped group therapy and continue with one on one therapy once per week- it includes some help with social pragmatic social but primarily help with executive functioning (school planning, but also global thought process--like how to work on group projects).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here in responses to the above. DS doesn't have any rigid behaviors, repetitive movements, or other common behaviors associated with ASD. I always wonder if that once we get his language a bit more caught up, if he'll "just" be introverted and awkward.

OP, my kid doesn't have what I would consider to be those behaviors earlier but now has ASD-ADHD diagnosis. Had social pragmatic delays earlier.

Can you walk me through some of the signs and symptoms?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

I think the pretend play thing can be a bit of a red herring. Lack of pretend play in a toddler can be a red flag, but I think there are many HFA kids who have very rich imaginary lives. I think when they talk about pretend play with toddlers, they mean more how the toddlers are imitating grownups using object (e.g., tea parties, putting babies to bed), which indicates that they are receiving social information and "practicing" it. That's kind of different from imaginary pretend play with older kids, where they create their own little worlds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

I think the pretend play thing can be a bit of a red herring. Lack of pretend play in a toddler can be a red flag, but I think there are many HFA kids who have very rich imaginary lives. I think when they talk about pretend play with toddlers, they mean more how the toddlers are imitating grownups using object (e.g., tea parties, putting babies to bed), which indicates that they are receiving social information and "practicing" it. That's kind of different from imaginary pretend play with older kids, where they create their own little worlds.

That's interesting. My child was diagnosed with HFA at 5. She had no problem with pretend play as a toddler, which, as you say is really just imitating adults talking on the phone, etc. But actual imaginary play, where she makes up a story line that is contrary to reality and acts in out, is not something she has ever done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here...reading and rereading these posts, and it's hard because I don't know how much my DS "fits" into either of the mentioned categories.
He is fine in social situations, just very quiet and keeps to himself around peers (will answer questions from adults, but is shy in doing so). He had a blast at a festival this weekend, but needed to hold my hand when participating in the games. Sat on the Easter Bunny's lap with zero issues, was fine during transitions, was just a tad "slower" than other kids when playing on the playground.
Pretend play is normal- just pretended to bathe his teddy bear, read him a story, and rocked him to sleep.

So I can see how these diagnoses are given, when things seem to be on track with just a few of the criteria not quite met....

OP- you're going to get a lot of opinions about social communications disorders obviously.
I mentioned earlier that my DS was diagnosed. In his case- he excels at pretend play. He has a hard time playing with other kids- reading body language, reciprocal play, reading a room to know what he is supposed to be doing. The chicken and egg is not clear - he has ADHD and we think the executive functions difficulties drive the problem with social language understanding. His issues became evident in second grade- up until then the kids were in different places of development socially, so it was not as obvious. Also until then, adults were more willing to tell/guide kids to what they are supposed to be doing- once the "younger child" supports weren't there, it was clear my DS was not functioning as independently and his peers developed negative opinions about his social skills/behavior.

I think the pretend play thing can be a bit of a red herring. Lack of pretend play in a toddler can be a red flag, but I think there are many HFA kids who have very rich imaginary lives. I think when they talk about pretend play with toddlers, they mean more how the toddlers are imitating grownups using object (e.g., tea parties, putting babies to bed), which indicates that they are receiving social information and "practicing" it. That's kind of different from imaginary pretend play with older kids, where they create their own little worlds.

That's interesting. My child was diagnosed with HFA at 5. She had no problem with pretend play as a toddler, which, as you say is really just imitating adults talking on the phone, etc. But actual imaginary play, where she makes up a story line that is contrary to reality and acts in out, is not something she has ever done.

A lot of adults with HFA/(self-identified aspies) report that they have created detailed imaginary worlds from the time they are young. Here's one thread! https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/do-you-have-an-imaginary-world.9473/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here in responses to the above. DS doesn't have any rigid behaviors, repetitive movements, or other common behaviors associated with ASD. I always wonder if that once we get his language a bit more caught up, if he'll "just" be introverted and awkward.

OP, my kid doesn't have what I would consider to be those behaviors earlier but now has ASD-ADHD diagnosis. Had social pragmatic delays earlier.

Your child doesn't sound similar to hers at all. A language disorder is not ASD-ADHD. Usually with language disorders, the major concerns that look similar go away around 5-6-7-8.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anecdotally I have a child with social pragmatic disorder (can't get the name straight) and a close family member on the spectrum. Here are some differences that I notice (sample size obviously quite small, so it's personal experience):

1. ASD seems to have significantly more and severe sensory integration issues
2. Anxiety and rigid thinking is higher with ASD
3. This is a big one - social communication (DC) seems to be able to reflect on social situations in hindsight. He can see what went wrong, even if he needs a lot of practice changing behavior. ASD, not as able to be reflective because of metacognitive issues.

I can see that this might upset folks- it's not intended to generalize- it's just the unusual experience of one person being able to observe these two conditions side by side.

I have a DS, 9, with ASD/ Asperger's and ADHD and I don't find your points 1, 2 and 3 to be true at all. People who meet DS in real life don't think he has any diagnosis even when they have known him for several yrs unless I tell them and when I tell people they are always surprised (most people have a stereotypical view of ASD like you.)

DS does not have severe sensory issues and never has. No clinical level of anxiety according to his neuropsych eval. His rigid thinking is not particularly noticible and he has no problems reflecting on his actions at all.

IMO - I don't see any ASD symptoms in your son! It looks like a misdiagnosis or he overcame the deficits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anecdotally I have a child with social pragmatic disorder (can't get the name straight) and a close family member on the spectrum. Here are some differences that I notice (sample size obviously quite small, so it's personal experience):

1. ASD seems to have significantly more and severe sensory integration issues
2. Anxiety and rigid thinking is higher with ASD
3. This is a big one - social communication (DC) seems to be able to reflect on social situations in hindsight. He can see what went wrong, even if he needs a lot of practice changing behavior. ASD, not as able to be reflective because of metacognitive issues.

I can see that this might upset folks- it's not intended to generalize- it's just the unusual experience of one person being able to observe these two conditions side by side.

I have a DS, 9, with ASD/ Asperger's and ADHD and I don't find your points 1, 2 and 3 to be true at all. People who meet DS in real life don't think he has any diagnosis even when they have known him for several yrs unless I tell them and when I tell people they are always surprised (most people have a stereotypical view of ASD like you.)

DS does not have severe sensory issues and never has. No clinical level of anxiety according to his neuropsych eval. His rigid thinking is not particularly noticible and he has no problems reflecting on his actions at all.

IMO - I don't see any ASD symptoms in your son! It looks like a misdiagnosis or he overcame the deficits.

He has issues at school and his school thinks he needs the supports for social communication, pragmatic language and flexible thinking and I agree. We are very happy he has an IEP and he gets the supports and services for his issues since prek4 which is why he is doing so well. He has always been fully mainstreamed.

When he is outside school where the demands are not as high he does fine but in school, he needs the help. It was not a misdiagnosis and he has had ADOS and psychoeducational testing at 4 and a full neuropsych eval at 7. He will get another neuropsych eval next year and I don't expect his diagnosis to change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
He has issues at school and his school thinks he needs the supports for social communication, pragmatic language and flexible thinking and I agree. We are very happy he has an IEP and he gets the supports and services for his issues since prek4 which is why he is doing so well. He has always been fully mainstreamed.

When he is outside school where the demands are not as high he does fine but in school, he needs the help. It was not a misdiagnosis and he has had ADOS and psychoeducational testing at 4 and a full neuropsych eval at 7. He will get another neuropsych eval next year and I don't expect his diagnosis to change.

What do you think the demands at work place for people with SCD. Get inspired with famous people with SCD

http://sped.wikidot.com/famous-persons-with-communication-disorders

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
He has issues at school and his school thinks he needs the supports for social communication, pragmatic language and flexible thinking and I agree. We are very happy he has an IEP and he gets the supports and services for his issues since prek4 which is why he is doing so well. He has always been fully mainstreamed.

When he is outside school where the demands are not as high he does fine but in school, he needs the help. It was not a misdiagnosis and he has had ADOS and psychoeducational testing at 4 and a full neuropsych eval at 7. He will get another neuropsych eval next year and I don't expect his diagnosis to change.

What do you think the demands at work place for people with SCD. Get inspired with famous people with SCD

http://sped.wikidot.com/famous-persons-with-communication-disorders

None of these people have/had SCD. A stutter for example is a language impairment not a communication disorder.