Elite law and Big law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where do you think the Yale, Harvard and Stanford grads go after their clerkships? Elite govt jobs are mostly a nonstarter right now, and there are only so many academic positions. Most end up in BigLaw or comparable boutiques.

Not true at DOJ, specifically OLC and not true White House general counsel’s office. Those have been, and continue to be “the elite law govt jobs”, as you put it.

Pretty true at DOJ where my kid’s offer for the DOJ Honors Program - the traditional entry level gateway to a career at Justice - was one of the very first programs completely eliminated by DOGE

Threads about the current law school admissions process and legal job market are replete with antiquated info from middle aged people who have no idea what they’re talking about

Terrible!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

Depends on the practice. I know a lot of IP lawyers from Fordham in biglaw.

I know several Fordham grads who are partners at top firms, including Skadden, doing M &A and securities law among other things.

For every "several Fordham" there are hundreds of Columbia. Statistically.

Law is a business that rely on connection a lot. These Fordham grads may have family connections so they are rain makers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

You’re wrong about Fordham. OP is clearly talking specifically about NYC. Fordham law has a good name and good placement in NYC Biglaw. They’re not doing contract work. They’re getting the same associate jobs as the Columbia grads, just not as many.

You obviously never went to law school. Contract review work is not equivalent to contract worker. You also never worked at a big law, in whatever capacity.

I suspect that neither of you have worked I Biglaw if you use the term "contract review" when you mean "document review" for discovery.

NP here. I have worked in biglaw. I have definitely heard of document review. Never heard of contract review, but then I only did litigation. Is contract review a thing in corporate/transactional work?

No. The “contract” is not what is being reviewed. It describes the employment status of the [document] reviewer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a little easier to get into Big Law from a T14, but there are still a great number of #15-50 law schools represented. I graduated from a non-coastal law school traditionally ranked in the 15-20 range and had offers from Cravath, Skadden, Gibson Dunn, and a couple other big firms. I had good grades and was on law review, but I wasn't a superstar.

If you were on law review, you were top of your class. I doubt your classmates who were lower ranked got hired out of law school into biglaw. I went to a top 14 law school. Nearly everyone who wanted a job in biglaw got one.

Good lord. Bully for you and your law school, I guess.

Anyhow, loads of my classmates landed jobs at big coastal firms, although perhaps not all at the whitest of white shoe ones. I’m guessing that they were generally in the top half of the class though. FWIW, I chose my law school over a few T14 options because it was cheaper and I preferred the school itself. No regrets.

If you’d finished 1L below median you’d have regrets tho. That’s why we T14ers spent the money. Risk hedge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

You’re wrong about Fordham. OP is clearly talking specifically about NYC. Fordham law has a good name and good placement in NYC Biglaw. They’re not doing contract work. They’re getting the same associate jobs as the Columbia grads, just not as many.

You obviously never went to law school. Contract review work is not equivalent to contract worker. You also never worked at a big law, in whatever capacity.

I suspect that neither of you have worked I Biglaw if you use the term "contract review" when you mean "document review" for discovery.

NP here. I have worked in biglaw. I have definitely heard of document review. Never heard of contract review, but then I only did litigation. Is contract review a thing in corporate/transactional work?

No. The “contract” is not what is being reviewed. It describes the employment status of the [document] reviewer.

Then it's called document review, not contract review. Contract review can be billed at a partner rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where do you think the Yale, Harvard and Stanford grads go after their clerkships? Elite govt jobs are mostly a nonstarter right now, and there are only so many academic positions. Most end up in BigLaw or comparable boutiques.

Not true at DOJ, specifically OLC and not true White House general counsel’s office. Those have been, and continue to be “the elite law govt jobs”, as you put it.

Pretty true at DOJ where my kid’s offer for the DOJ Honors Program - the traditional entry level gateway to a career at Justice - was one of the very first programs completely eliminated by DOGE

Threads about the current law school admissions process and legal job market are replete with antiquated info from middle aged people who have no idea what they’re talking about

She said “specifically “ OLC which is the jewel in the crown and a true “elite law” position as OP puts it. Entry level positions, even if an honors program, is not an elite lawyer position. That would be OLC, WH. counsel, general counsel of an agency, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where do you think the Yale, Harvard and Stanford grads go after their clerkships? Elite govt jobs are mostly a nonstarter right now, and there are only so many academic positions. Most end up in BigLaw or comparable boutiques.

Not true at DOJ, specifically OLC and not true White House general counsel’s office. Those have been, and continue to be “the elite law govt jobs”, as you put it.

Pretty true at DOJ where my kid’s offer for the DOJ Honors Program - the traditional entry level gateway to a career at Justice - was one of the very first programs completely eliminated by DOGE

Threads about the current law school admissions process and legal job market are replete with antiquated info from middle aged people who have no idea what they’re talking about

She said “specifically “ OLC which is the jewel in the crown and a true “elite law” position as OP puts it. Entry level positions, even if an honors program, is not an elite lawyer position. That would be OLC, WH. counsel, general counsel of an agency, etc.

She literally said: "Where do you think the Yale, Harvard and Stanford grads go after their clerkships? Elite govt jobs are mostly a nonstarter right now"

Do you think grads are going from their clerkships into the White House Office of Legal Counsel or becoming general counsel of an agency? DOJ Honors was an elite destination for students coming out of law schools / clerkships and it is a nonstarter right now

See my previous comment about these lawyer threads being full of bad information

[Anonymous]

Ironic that this thread has deteriorated into a bunch of lawyers nitpicking each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

Depends on the practice. I know a lot of IP lawyers from Fordham in biglaw.

I know several Fordham grads who are partners at top firms, including Skadden, doing M &A and securities law among other things.

For every "several Fordham" there are hundreds of Columbia. Statistically.

Law is a business that rely on connection a lot. These Fordham grads may have family connections so they are rain makers.

Yes there's more Columbia than Fordham in biglaw but not nearly the difference you suggest. The ratio is more like 1.5 to 1 or maybe 2 to 1. Not "hundreds."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

Depends on the practice. I know a lot of IP lawyers from Fordham in biglaw.

I know several Fordham grads who are partners at top firms, including Skadden, doing M &A and securities law among other things.

For every "several Fordham" there are hundreds of Columbia. Statistically.

Law is a business that rely on connection a lot. These Fordham grads may have family connections so they are rain makers.

Yes there's more Columbia than Fordham in biglaw but not nearly the difference you suggest. The ratio is more like 1.5 to 1 or maybe 2 to 1. Not "hundreds."

And I think that the point of the discussion is that if one were to ask someone who is not a lawyer and/or in the metro-NY area how many Fordham law alums there were in BigLaw the answer would likely be zero. So the point is that Fordham outperforms expectations. The degree to which it does so seems to be a topic of much debate but is less relevant - we can all agree that Fordham does better than rankings and outside reputation would lead one to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a little easier to get into Big Law from a T14, but there are still a great number of #15-50 law schools represented. I graduated from a non-coastal law school traditionally ranked in the 15-20 range and had offers from Cravath, Skadden, Gibson Dunn, and a couple other big firms. I had good grades and was on law review, but I wasn't a superstar.

Agree with this - I read the OP and thought either they are spouse of an attorney or very young, because anyone who has spent enough time practicing knows plenty of non T-14 grad attorneys/partners and plenty of T-14 grad wash outs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

Depends on the practice. I know a lot of IP lawyers from Fordham in biglaw.

I know several Fordham grads who are partners at top firms, including Skadden, doing M &A and securities law among other things.

For every "several Fordham" there are hundreds of Columbia. Statistically.

Law is a business that rely on connection a lot. These Fordham grads may have family connections so they are rain makers.

You are showing your lack of Biglaw knowledge. Almost none have these types of contacts at the start and the one that do go to Columbia not Fordham. No one starts as a rainmaker. Indeed if a first year started brining in clients, most partners would be highly suspicious and probably want the person out.

[Anonymous]

Your job is to get to Biglaw. Easier to do from a T25 firm. T14 somewhat easier than that. But you can get there from the top of the class (not just the top slot but top 5-10%depending on school) from anywhere. Once you are there -- be it Skadden, GDC, Latham all are treated the same. There is no path for the T14 grads. They all get the same chances. They are not helped by alums at the firm because those people are too busy to even care who the junior associates are. You are just a nameless and faceless cog in the machine until you get a little further down the line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a little easier to get into Big Law from a T14, but there are still a great number of #15-50 law schools represented. I graduated from a non-coastal law school traditionally ranked in the 15-20 range and had offers from Cravath, Skadden, Gibson Dunn, and a couple other big firms. I had good grades and was on law review, but I wasn't a superstar.

If you were on law review, you were top of your class. I doubt your classmates who were lower ranked got hired out of law school into biglaw. I went to a top 14 law school. Nearly everyone who wanted a job in biglaw got one.

Agree with this but this is still not enough people to fill Biglaw needs. That is why there are lots from lower ranked schools. The lower the school, the higher you need to be in the class. Everyone at a 25-50 school can't get to BigLaw but those at the top can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Georgetown used to be T14.

Also don't forget about Notre Dame, we have a SCOTUS from ND.

Fordham grads probably do a lot of contract review at the big law. Not the same as Columbia grads. Completely different tracks.

Depends on the practice. I know a lot of IP lawyers from Fordham in biglaw.

I know several Fordham grads who are partners at top firms, including Skadden, doing M &A and securities law among other things.

For every "several Fordham" there are hundreds of Columbia. Statistically.

Law is a business that rely on connection a lot. These Fordham grads may have family connections so they are rain makers.

Yes there's more Columbia than Fordham in biglaw but not nearly the difference you suggest. The ratio is more like 1.5 to 1 or maybe 2 to 1. Not "hundreds."

And I think that the point of the discussion is that if one were to ask someone who is not a lawyer and/or in the metro-NY area how many Fordham law alums there were in BigLaw the answer would likely be zero. So the point is that Fordham outperforms expectations. The degree to which it does so seems to be a topic of much debate but is less relevant - we can all agree that Fordham does better than rankings and outside reputation would lead one to believe.

The numbers show respectable hiring for Fordham. This poster is incredulous and wants us to believe (with no evidence) that sure they may be hiring from Fordham and but don't ya know...they're actually doing low-prestige clerical work, not the stuff the Columbia grads are doing.

There's 8 law schools in NYC, plus there's nearby Pace and Hofstra. Fordham does much better than the other NY schools that are not Columbia and NYU.