RMIB and Blair criteria for HS program acceptance

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:98% is not going to cut it for MAP scores. I am pretty sure most/all of kids are solid 99% kids. So something in these ranges:

SMCS MAP-M 280+
RM-IB MAP-R 250+

What’s your source for this information?

PP probably knows one admitted kid with those scores and decided that they must be true for all admitted kids.

When I was there a few years ago the Blair program administrator stated the average MAP scores of students admitted the previous year. It was a little higher than what the PP listed, but there are plenty of kids admitted with lower scores.

I’m a current Blair magnet parent but not the PP above. The MEDIAN when my kid applied a couple of years ago was something like 280, according to the magnet administrator. So half were below that. Including my kid, FWIW. (Despite having a MAP score below the median, my kid is thriving in the program btw).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

How can you be above 99 pct in MAP? That’s literally impossible.

Easily. You look at the cutoff for 99th percentile and you see if you are at that or above. Either is fine. Below is more of a long shot. If I’m remembering correctly it’s about 272 in 8th grade.

DP. Trying to thread the needle on this. Anything above the 99th percentile score is still in the 99th percentile. Stochastically, that can be the 99.99th percentile, but we never would call it the 100th percentile. Though one might utilize a known mean, standard deviation and assumed distribution independently to determine a percentile to tenths, hundredths, thousandths, etc., NWEA's MAP results only report whole-number percentiles vs. achieved RIT scores (the 272 suggested above, though that is off by a bit). Both PPs are correct, each in their own way.

Our understanding is that the program teams evaluating applications are given only candidates' MAP percentiles, and not their raw scores. This would mean that there is no bump to admission chances based on being "above" the 99th percentile (achieving an RIT score above that at which the 99th percentile begins).

NWEA has just published the 2025 norms, as they do every 5 years. Unsurprisingly, as these norms are drawn from a sampling of scores across the country achieved during the latter part of pandemic recovery, mean and 99th percentile RITs are down just a bit from the prior norms (2020, based on scores from similarly earlier years). From the NWEA primer:

"NWEA® continually refines the methodologies used to generate our norms so they remain statistically rigorous as well as accurate and relevant. This 2025 update is essential to account for changes in US student demographics, postpandemic shifts in student performance, and the item-selection algorithm in the newly enhanced version of MAP® Growth™. Educators can utilize the MAP Growth norms in various ways, including:

- Evaluating student and school achievement and growth

- Individualizing instruction and setting goals with students

- Supporting conversations about achievement and growth patterns

The data used to produce the MAP Growth norms were sampled from 116 million scores of 13.8 million students across 30,000 schools spanning six testing terms from fall 2022 to spring 2024."

(There is additional info about weeks of instruction prior to testing, but MCPS has not, to date, made associated adjustment; though the effect is small, a shift of, say, 1-2 RIT points based on having taken MAP early or late in the testing window can make a difference for some...)

The new 8th grade fall means are 216 for MAP-R and 222 for MAP-M, with standard deviations of 17 & 18, respectively. These yield normal-distributuon (Bell curve) 99th percentile RIT scores beginning at 256 for MAP-R and 264 for MAP-M. (2020 norms had these at 258 | 269, with means of 218 | 225 and standard deviations of 17 | 19.) Detailed tables may show variation from these numbers if a higher-precision standard deviation (or alternate percentile methodology) is used than that available in/presumed from the published primer.

As MCPS has seen RIT scores rise in excess of the national normative data, especially at low-FARMS schools, with now-greater time for pandemic recovery than the 2022-24 period from which the 2025 norms were drawn, DCCAPS and the evaluation teams for criteria-based programs may have a more difficult time due to an increased proportion of those MCPS program applicants hitting the national 99th percentile. Even the MCPS algorithm for local norming preserves any score at/above the 99th national as locally normed 99th.

Perhaps the planned expansion of programs may help, but admission decisions for these will come a year further on, and they may not want to make any criteria change in the interim -- similar reasoning has been provided in the past for delaying possible adjustments. I could see their maintaining use of the 2020 norms, as inappropriate as that may be to proper reflection of the newer test, as a stop gap; attempting, for instance, to impute/utilize unpublished tenths of percentiles would create less manageable perception/communications/other problems that I think they would try to avoid.

I didn’t read all of your unnecessarily long post, but the selection committee absolutely does not only get percentiles. They get scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

This is the unjust "justification" for inequity to which those schools with such set-asides have been clinging. The program is set up to accommodate a certain number of students. Both local-school-in-bounds and wider-catchment students are in that same program.

At TPMS, for instance, it is about 125 per year. Some 100 of those are given to about 3/5 of the county by population (the other 2/5 are served by Clemente MS), maybe drawing from 7000 students (pre-criteria). By contrast, 25 are given to those in-bounds to TPMS, maybe drawing from 300 students, resulting in it being about 6 times as likely to be granted access to the program. The numbers, here, are rough, but any error is marginal to the point -- to get to parity, a significant majority (some 19-20 with that shown here) of the in-bounds set-aside seats would have to be shifted to that rest-of-the-three-fifths lottery pool. This doesn't even count the tendency of school administrators to select currently attending locals to backfill any seats that open from students deciding to leave the program early, returning to their home schools.

There is capacity at TPMS, and funding for teachers for all classes follows the enrolled population. There is no reason to consider the excess set-aside seats within a magnet as "extra" to the program, as though, for some reason other than fealty to an old BOE-and-Council, back-room-brokered decision, they couldn't make all 125 part of one pool with no particular set-aside. Meeting the same criteria and having the same chance are two different animals, and the one should not be conflated with the other when two lottery pools are operated, one (the local set-aside) with a much larger seat-to-population ratio.

If you believe otherwise, show your math and allow for it to be picked apart. Or you could realize that there are programs without differentially probablistic local set-asides, concede the point and save everyone the back-and-forth.

The math is very easy. If the set aside were ended the program would lose 25 spots or the school would be 25 places bigger. The latter is not an option. I’ve two kids go through the program from that set aside. The first took Cogat and would almost certainly have been selected regardless of location (no lottery). The second was equally as high scoring but didn’t have opportunity to avoid a lottery (though i think would also have been selected in a competitive process).

Incorrect. Again, there is nothing but fealty to that back-room deal and equally ancient arbitrary guidance of 100/class as an out-of-bounds magnet limit that would keep the program from offering all 125 seats to the general population.

The personal anecdote is immaterial, though I am happy for your children.

I’m not following your logic at all. Probably because it’s not actually logical. If the program remains at 125 but there is no set aside for the local population, that increases the size of the school by 25 students. The school is already very large.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

They should have these ste-aside seats for hosting the programs and taking on additional responsibilities.

They should get bonuses for hosting a desired program? For being local to it/not having to travel longer distances? What burden to the in-bounds community is possibly being implied, here, that makes it such that they require the set-aside-seat compensation?

I think magnet parents like to see their kids as an unmitigated and uncomplicated blessing upon the host school, but it's just not that simple.

Having a magnet program is a mixed blessing. Some of the drawbacks are small (harder to get a spot on a school activity like orchestra, math team, or drama production). Some of them are larger (loss of funding due to demographic shifts, dangerous parking lot situations due to additional busses and drivers). Not to mention the colonization of all parent discussions by the needs of the magnet kids.

Indeed. However, you note only downside effects, and it is a mixed blessing.

Math team and orchestra were available at TPMS -- it is not so at every school. TPMS has among the very highest number of available extracurriculars across MCPS middle schools, with a far greater preponderance of those geared toward the academically inclined without loss of activities for those less so.

The demographic shift that sees potential loss of Title I-type funding follows a lower proportion of higher-need students. Without the magnet, expanded bounds would have been in play to fill seats, drawing from a considerably greater high-need population in the surrounding area. That magnet demographic shift also facilitates provision of certain electives not available at every MCPS middle school, and it results in the benefit of robust PTSA funding/participation.

But perhaps the most compelling evidence of balance between positives and negatives, and the greater weight of the positives, is the behavior of the community when suggestions arise that the magnet be moved. The overwhelming response is a firm "NO."

You truly have no idea of what you're talking about.
Do you know how many times TPMS had floated the idea of not wanting to host the magnet? How do you think they got the set-aside seats? As a compromise for them to still host the magnet.
Not every or principal wants to host magnet programs with the added burdens, difficulties and logistics.

Different poster here. No, I don’t know how many times TPMS floated the idea of not hosting the magnet. Can you share the history that you are alluding to? I’m surprised that anyone would know this given that the magnet has been there since the 1980s. What happened in the early 80s that is pertinent to this discussion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

We have a good number of native Chinese speakers in our Whitman-BCC cluster. If no one but the Potomac cluster has access to that immersion program, I agree that’s pretty awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

We have a good number of native Chinese speakers in our Whitman-BCC cluster. If no one but the Potomac cluster has access to that immersion program, I agree that’s pretty awful.

Encourage some fluent Chinese speakers to apply to be teachers. Blair finally got one to teach Chinese language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

We have a good number of native Chinese speakers in our Whitman-BCC cluster. If no one but the Potomac cluster has access to that immersion program, I agree that’s pretty awful.

Encourage some fluent Chinese speakers to apply to be teachers. Blair finally got one to teach Chinese language.

Yes clearly my recruiting teachers to start and finding budget for them is far easier than opening up the “special” just for Potomac kids opportunity to other clusters. /s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

This is the unjust "justification" for inequity to which those schools with such set-asides have been clinging. The program is set up to accommodate a certain number of students. Both local-school-in-bounds and wider-catchment students are in that same program.

At TPMS, for instance, it is about 125 per year. Some 100 of those are given to about 3/5 of the county by population (the other 2/5 are served by Clemente MS), maybe drawing from 7000 students (pre-criteria). By contrast, 25 are given to those in-bounds to TPMS, maybe drawing from 300 students, resulting in it being about 6 times as likely to be granted access to the program. The numbers, here, are rough, but any error is marginal to the point -- to get to parity, a significant majority (some 19-20 with that shown here) of the in-bounds set-aside seats would have to be shifted to that rest-of-the-three-fifths lottery pool. This doesn't even count the tendency of school administrators to select currently attending locals to backfill any seats that open from students deciding to leave the program early, returning to their home schools.

There is capacity at TPMS, and funding for teachers for all classes follows the enrolled population. There is no reason to consider the excess set-aside seats within a magnet as "extra" to the program, as though, for some reason other than fealty to an old BOE-and-Council, back-room-brokered decision, they couldn't make all 125 part of one pool with no particular set-aside. Meeting the same criteria and having the same chance are two different animals, and the one should not be conflated with the other when two lottery pools are operated, one (the local set-aside) with a much larger seat-to-population ratio.

If you believe otherwise, show your math and allow for it to be picked apart. Or you could realize that there are programs without differentially probablistic local set-asides, concede the point and save everyone the back-and-forth.

The math is very easy. If the set aside were ended the program would lose 25 spots or the school would be 25 places bigger. The latter is not an option. I’ve two kids go through the program from that set aside. The first took Cogat and would almost certainly have been selected regardless of location (no lottery). The second was equally as high scoring but didn’t have opportunity to avoid a lottery (though i think would also have been selected in a competitive process).

Incorrect. Again, there is nothing but fealty to that back-room deal and equally ancient arbitrary guidance of 100/class as an out-of-bounds magnet limit that would keep the program from offering all 125 seats to the general population.

The personal anecdote is immaterial, though I am happy for your children.

I’m not following your logic at all. Probably because it’s not actually logical. If the program remains at 125 but there is no set aside for the local population, that increases the size of the school by 25 students. The school is already very large.

I'm sorry you don't follow the logic. Claiming something is not logical without reasonable refutation is not a great way to convince others. The impression that the out-of-bounds magnet population cannot be adjusted beyond the 100/grade is born of an illusion that tradition or policy is immutable, when they are not. The large in-bounds set-aside is mostly an artifact of back-room political dealing.

The school is over 100 seats below its capacity, expanded just a few years back with an addition to what was a reasonably new structure (1999 rebuild) in the first place. With a 6-student in-bounds set-aside, as suggested for relative parity of opportunity instead of the current 25, the resulting increase would be 57 students (19 per grade). This would keep it below capacity into 2030-31 based on the 2026 CIP projection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

We have a good number of native Chinese speakers in our Whitman-BCC cluster. If no one but the Potomac cluster has access to that immersion program, I agree that’s pretty awful.

Encourage some fluent Chinese speakers to apply to be teachers. Blair finally got one to teach Chinese language.

You are comparing the availability of a high school language class to the availability of an elementary immersion program.

Bayard Rustan ES has a Chinese immersion program, but only Potomac ES has the program reserved nearly entirely to students within its own base service area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

This is the unjust "justification" for inequity to which those schools with such set-asides have been clinging. The program is set up to accommodate a certain number of students. Both local-school-in-bounds and wider-catchment students are in that same program.

At TPMS, for instance, it is about 125 per year. Some 100 of those are given to about 3/5 of the county by population (the other 2/5 are served by Clemente MS), maybe drawing from 7000 students (pre-criteria). By contrast, 25 are given to those in-bounds to TPMS, maybe drawing from 300 students, resulting in it being about 6 times as likely to be granted access to the program. The numbers, here, are rough, but any error is marginal to the point -- to get to parity, a significant majority (some 19-20 with that shown here) of the in-bounds set-aside seats would have to be shifted to that rest-of-the-three-fifths lottery pool. This doesn't even count the tendency of school administrators to select currently attending locals to backfill any seats that open from students deciding to leave the program early, returning to their home schools.

There is capacity at TPMS, and funding for teachers for all classes follows the enrolled population. There is no reason to consider the excess set-aside seats within a magnet as "extra" to the program, as though, for some reason other than fealty to an old BOE-and-Council, back-room-brokered decision, they couldn't make all 125 part of one pool with no particular set-aside. Meeting the same criteria and having the same chance are two different animals, and the one should not be conflated with the other when two lottery pools are operated, one (the local set-aside) with a much larger seat-to-population ratio.

If you believe otherwise, show your math and allow for it to be picked apart. Or you could realize that there are programs without differentially probablistic local set-asides, concede the point and save everyone the back-and-forth.

The math is very easy. If the set aside were ended the program would lose 25 spots or the school would be 25 places bigger. The latter is not an option. I’ve two kids go through the program from that set aside. The first took Cogat and would almost certainly have been selected regardless of location (no lottery). The second was equally as high scoring but didn’t have opportunity to avoid a lottery (though i think would also have been selected in a competitive process).

Incorrect. Again, there is nothing but fealty to that back-room deal and equally ancient arbitrary guidance of 100/class as an out-of-bounds magnet limit that would keep the program from offering all 125 seats to the general population.

The personal anecdote is immaterial, though I am happy for your children.

I’m not following your logic at all. Probably because it’s not actually logical. If the program remains at 125 but there is no set aside for the local population, that increases the size of the school by 25 students. The school is already very large.

I'm sorry you don't follow the logic. Claiming something is not logical without reasonable refutation is not a great way to convince others. The impression that the out-of-bounds magnet population cannot be adjusted beyond the 100/grade is born of an illusion that tradition or policy is immutable, when they are not. The large in-bounds set-aside is mostly an artifact of back-room political dealing.

The school is over 100 seats below its capacity, expanded just a few years back with an addition to what was a reasonably new structure (1999 rebuild) in the first place. With a 6-student in-bounds set-aside, as suggested for relative parity of opportunity instead of the current 25, the resulting increase would be 57 students (19 per grade). This would keep it below capacity into 2030-31 based on the 2026 CIP projection.

Huh?????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

We have a good number of native Chinese speakers in our Whitman-BCC cluster. If no one but the Potomac cluster has access to that immersion program, I agree that’s pretty awful.

On paper, the Potomac ES program is a lottery, just like Sligo Creek or Rock Creek Forest. But the lottery only opens up to the broader county if there are seats remaining after home school families opt in. Because the Chinese almost always fills up with exclusively zoned families, no one else gets the benefit of the program. So it's a little bit of a bait and switch for the broader county, but also means those resources are hoarded for some of the most affluent families in the region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

This is the unjust "justification" for inequity to which those schools with such set-asides have been clinging. The program is set up to accommodate a certain number of students. Both local-school-in-bounds and wider-catchment students are in that same program.

At TPMS, for instance, it is about 125 per year. Some 100 of those are given to about 3/5 of the county by population (the other 2/5 are served by Clemente MS), maybe drawing from 7000 students (pre-criteria). By contrast, 25 are given to those in-bounds to TPMS, maybe drawing from 300 students, resulting in it being about 6 times as likely to be granted access to the program. The numbers, here, are rough, but any error is marginal to the point -- to get to parity, a significant majority (some 19-20 with that shown here) of the in-bounds set-aside seats would have to be shifted to that rest-of-the-three-fifths lottery pool. This doesn't even count the tendency of school administrators to select currently attending locals to backfill any seats that open from students deciding to leave the program early, returning to their home schools.

There is capacity at TPMS, and funding for teachers for all classes follows the enrolled population. There is no reason to consider the excess set-aside seats within a magnet as "extra" to the program, as though, for some reason other than fealty to an old BOE-and-Council, back-room-brokered decision, they couldn't make all 125 part of one pool with no particular set-aside. Meeting the same criteria and having the same chance are two different animals, and the one should not be conflated with the other when two lottery pools are operated, one (the local set-aside) with a much larger seat-to-population ratio.

If you believe otherwise, show your math and allow for it to be picked apart. Or you could realize that there are programs without differentially probablistic local set-asides, concede the point and save everyone the back-and-forth.

The math is very easy. If the set aside were ended the program would lose 25 spots or the school would be 25 places bigger. The latter is not an option. I’ve two kids go through the program from that set aside. The first took Cogat and would almost certainly have been selected regardless of location (no lottery). The second was equally as high scoring but didn’t have opportunity to avoid a lottery (though i think would also have been selected in a competitive process).

Incorrect. Again, there is nothing but fealty to that back-room deal and equally ancient arbitrary guidance of 100/class as an out-of-bounds magnet limit that would keep the program from offering all 125 seats to the general population.

The personal anecdote is immaterial, though I am happy for your children.

I’m not following your logic at all. Probably because it’s not actually logical. If the program remains at 125 but there is no set aside for the local population, that increases the size of the school by 25 students. The school is already very large.

I'm sorry you don't follow the logic. Claiming something is not logical without reasonable refutation is not a great way to convince others. The impression that the out-of-bounds magnet population cannot be adjusted beyond the 100/grade is born of an illusion that tradition or policy is immutable, when they are not. The large in-bounds set-aside is mostly an artifact of back-room political dealing.

The school is over 100 seats below its capacity, expanded just a few years back with an addition to what was a reasonably new structure (1999 rebuild) in the first place. With a 6-student in-bounds set-aside, as suggested for relative parity of opportunity instead of the current 25, the resulting increase would be 57 students (19 per grade). This would keep it below capacity into 2030-31 based on the 2026 CIP projection.

Huh?????

As if you can't fathoms that post...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blair median MAP score has been around 280 for the past few years so kids below that certainly get in. All As in STEM subjects are necessary too. A good rule of thumb is above 99th percentile. I wouldn’t bother below that.

I’m shocked that middle schools are helping with applications. Or at least at one middle school. That doesn’t happen elsewhere.

JW feeds into RM and there are 25 seats in the RMIB program specifically set aside for JW cluster students so it makes sense for that middle school.

These local set-asides in excess of the ratio of seats-to-overall-student-population for the rest of the county -- one-school CESs, Potomac ES Mandarin Immersion, Takoma Park MS magnet, etc. -- need to go away. Inequitable on their face.

You can have a set-aside to ensure students from that school get in, but not any more seats than would give the local students a similar overall chance of selection as the non-locals.

The local set-aside seats still have to meet the program criteria. The set aside ensures that students already inbound don’t take away seats from out of area. In other words, they are extra program seats for students already attending the school and don’t impact staffing by bringing in students from outside the school boundaries.

+1 Also, even if they don't join in 9th grade, they can apply to join in 11th. They can also take IB classes without joining the program in 11th grade.

this is the benefit of living in the cluster.

An often inequitable benefit.

Honestly, 25 seats at TPMS is way more defensible than Potomac ES running a Chinese immersion program that only serves home school kids. At least some non-TPMS kids get the opportunity.

As noted above, hosting a magnet program is not an unmitigated good thing, and having a critical mass of home school kids in the program eases that burden and helps to build bridges between the majority school population and the magnet.

News flash: Potomac ES has a lot of native Chinese speakers.

DP. So, any school which has "a lot" of native speakers of another language can offer an immersion program in that language?

We have a good number of native Chinese speakers in our Whitman-BCC cluster. If no one but the Potomac cluster has access to that immersion program, I agree that’s pretty awful.

On paper, the Potomac ES program is a lottery, just like Sligo Creek or Rock Creek Forest. But the lottery only opens up to the broader county if there are seats remaining after home school families opt in. Because the Chinese almost always fills up with exclusively zoned families, no one else gets the benefit of the program. So it's a little bit of a bait and switch for the broader county, but also means those resources are hoarded for some of the most affluent families in the region.

Despite MCPS’s purported focus on equity, some communities are more equal than others