Why can't people speak out against Israel/IDF?

[Anonymous]

I suppose I am deeply isolationist and sort of MAGA. I don’t get why Israel is seemingly above criticism.

That said, I also support revoking the touring visa for the “Death to the IDF” guy. We don’t need that garbage here in our country.

The comparisons to a Head of State are silly, though. We aren’t that far removed from Columbia inviting the Iranian leader to speak on campus. Heads of State get much wider latitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Death to the IDF is not unlike saying death to the Nazis. Both groups are war criminals that responsible for genocides and ethnic cleansing.

So "death to the Palestinians" is ok? Because all of Hamas are Palestinians, as have been all the members of other terror groups. Or is it "rules for thee but not for me" when it comes to Palestinians but nobody else?

Holy analogy failure!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, two things. First, they didn't say "dismantle the IDF" they said "Kill the IDF." Those are not the same things. One calls for disbanding an army and the other is a call for murder. So let's be honest about the situation.

Second, and I say this as proud Jew AND a proud Zionist, I am deeply bothered by the special status the government is giving in regards speaking out against Israel and Jews. This double standard--DEI is bad except when it comes to Jews and/or Israel--is not going to do us any favors with people who already hate us. Jews don't do well historically when people can point to us and say we get special things other people don't. Most of the people I know agree with this discomfort and I've read a few articles in the Jewish media pushing back against this idea. Don't get me wrong, I find what the band said appaling and ugly, but I don't agree that it alone should make them ineligible to enter the US.

Arguable. Saying "Kill the IDF" has the same meaning has "Kill the bill", "kill the program", "kill the plan". There are many ways that it simply means "kill the organization".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not just foreign nationals on college campuses. Now, Bands that have suggested the IDF be dismantled are banned from touring in America... It's perfectly fine to say "Defund the police" after a few rogue police officers (in some badly run police departments) kill some African Americans, but criticize the IDF or Israeli government (an organization which has no killed 60,000 or so and maybe 3-4 times that, while displacing and actively starving an entire country) and your visa is immediately revoked to perform as concerts in the US.

Is anyone else not seeing this lunacy and the complete double standard of all of this?

Some very reasonable solutions have been put forth in congress - like you should disclose if you possess foreign citizenship while running for office. I wonder if that will help us elucidate some things...

Nice try, OP.
This rapper led a cheer yelling “death, death to the IDF.” He encouraged thousands to join in.
I suppose had he led a chant yelling “death, death to the Palestines” you would feel the same way?

Looks like he FAFO.

Again, Palestinians (guessing what you meant) is an actual group of people and it clearly means murder them. The IDF is an organization and calling for its death could me just calling for the death of the organization as the band later clarified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not just foreign nationals on college campuses. Now, Bands that have suggested the IDF be dismantled are banned from touring in America... It's perfectly fine to say "Defund the police" after a few rogue police officers (in some badly run police departments) kill some African Americans, but criticize the IDF or Israeli government (an organization which has no killed 60,000 or so and maybe 3-4 times that, while displacing and actively starving an entire country) and your visa is immediately revoked to perform as concerts in the US.

Is anyone else not seeing this lunacy and the complete double standard of all of this?

Some very reasonable solutions have been put forth in congress - like you should disclose if you possess foreign citizenship while running for office. I wonder if that will help us elucidate some things...

Nice try, OP.
This rapper led a cheer yelling “death, death to the IDF.” He encouraged thousands to join in.
I suppose had he led a chant yelling “death, death to the Palestines” you would feel the same way?

Looks like he FAFO.

Israelis chant death to America but are still allowed in this country.

Not only are they welcomed back. Our politicians charter their flights to get them home when they're in a bind. Meanwhile, Americans in Lebanon have to pay their own way back if they're lucky enough to get a ticket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I suppose I am deeply isolationist and sort of MAGA. I don’t get why Israel is seemingly above criticism.

That said, I also support revoking the touring visa for the “Death to the IDF” guy. We don’t need that garbage here in our country.

The comparisons to a Head of State are silly, though. We aren’t that far removed from Columbia inviting the Iranian leader to speak on campus. Heads of State get much wider latitude.

You act like it isn't already in our country.... Our country pays for the bombs, bullets, and missiles that "protect" Israel and enable them to shoot starving Palestinians.

[Anonymous]

"If you want to know who rules over you, just look for who you are not allowed to criticize."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, two things. First, they didn't say "dismantle the IDF" they said "Kill the IDF." Those are not the same things. One calls for disbanding an army and the other is a call for murder. So let's be honest about the situation.

Second, and I say this as proud Jew AND a proud Zionist, I am deeply bothered by the special status the government is giving in regards speaking out against Israel and Jews. This double standard--DEI is bad except when it comes to Jews and/or Israel--is not going to do us any favors with people who already hate us. Jews don't do well historically when people can point to us and say we get special things other people don't. Most of the people I know agree with this discomfort and I've read a few articles in the Jewish media pushing back against this idea. Don't get me wrong, I find what the band said appaling and ugly, but I don't agree that it alone should make them ineligible to enter the US.

Arguable. Saying "Kill the IDF" has the same meaning has "Kill the bill", "kill the program", "kill the plan". There are many ways that it simply means "kill the organization".

Also, remember that on these American shores, we have the God given right to say whatever the hell we want, provided it doesn't cross very specific parameters. That said we do have, in most US jurisdictions, "terroristic threat" statutes which make it illegal to threaten to kill or harm someone or their property. But that usually comes with some standard of credibility, which is also why it's usually a felony and not a misdemeanor. Someone just saying or chanting something or for that matter laying out some seashells alone typically does not and should not meet the sniff test of whether it's a credible threat. If on the other hand they said they wanted to kill someone AND had bomb-making supplies or a weapons cache and a map to that person's house, other things to give some credibility to whether that person might actually follow through with it, then terroristic threat statutes would apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"If you want to know who rules over you, just look for who you are not allowed to criticize."

I have nothing against the Jewish people or their religion but I think Netanyahu's policies are horrible and genocidal.

There, I said it, and I make absolutely no apologies, and if you call me an antisemite I'll be more than happy to open the biggest dictionary I own and firmly press your face into the definition until you actually learn what it means, because it DOES NOT mean "criticizing Netanyahu's bad policies."

Get it right or get lost. I accept nothing else from you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Death to the IDF is not unlike saying death to the Nazis. Both groups are war criminals that responsible for genocides and ethnic cleansing.

So "death to the Palestinians" is ok? Because all of Hamas are Palestinians, as have been all the members of other terror groups. Or is it "rules for thee but not for me" when it comes to Palestinians but nobody else?

Ah how quaint look at the "both-siderists". I guess it's OK to be a "both-siderist", until you have to be a "choose-a-siderist", and we aren't going to be picking your side any time soon.

Maybe you should think about what Islam can do to get the benefit of the doubt more often.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suppose I am deeply isolationist and sort of MAGA. I don’t get why Israel is seemingly above criticism.

That said, I also support revoking the touring visa for the “Death to the IDF” guy. We don’t need that garbage here in our country.

The comparisons to a Head of State are silly, though. We aren’t that far removed from Columbia inviting the Iranian leader to speak on campus. Heads of State get much wider latitude.

You act like it isn't already in our country.... Our country pays for the bombs, bullets, and missiles that "protect" Israel and enable them to shoot starving Palestinians.

So we should let a foreign national rapper into the country who goes around engaging the crowd in the “Death, Death to the IDF chants”? Is that your point?

I’d rather not be on either side of the issue, but the rapper guy is just terrible optics for what I perceive to be your cause.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, two things. First, they didn't say "dismantle the IDF" they said "Kill the IDF." Those are not the same things. One calls for disbanding an army and the other is a call for murder. So let's be honest about the situation.

Second, and I say this as proud Jew AND a proud Zionist, I am deeply bothered by the special status the government is giving in regards speaking out against Israel and Jews. This double standard--DEI is bad except when it comes to Jews and/or Israel--is not going to do us any favors with people who already hate us. Jews don't do well historically when people can point to us and say we get special things other people don't. Most of the people I know agree with this discomfort and I've read a few articles in the Jewish media pushing back against this idea. Don't get me wrong, I find what the band said appaling and ugly, but I don't agree that it alone should make them ineligible to enter the US.

Arguable. Saying "Kill the IDF" has the same meaning has "Kill the bill", "kill the program", "kill the plan". There are many ways that it simply means "kill the organization".

Also, remember that on these American shores, we have the God given right to say whatever the hell we want, provided it doesn't cross very specific parameters. That said we do have, in most US jurisdictions, "terroristic threat" statutes which make it illegal to threaten to kill or harm someone or their property. But that usually comes with some standard of credibility, which is also why it's usually a felony and not a misdemeanor. Someone just saying or chanting something or for that matter laying out some seashells alone typically does not and should not meet the sniff test of whether it's a credible threat. If on the other hand they said they wanted to kill someone AND had bomb-making supplies or a weapons cache and a map to that person's house, other things to give some credibility to whether that person might actually follow through with it, then terroristic threat statutes would apply.

While free speech exists in this country, the most basic function of our federal government is to protect our borders and determine whether foreign nationals are allowed in. The artist has no legal right to be here and barring his entry is a perfectly legitimate exercise of government power. Kinda like Australia barring Candace Owens from entering their country.

[Anonymous]

We need to be more kinder and use gentler rhetoric to stop those engaging in a genocide and a Holocaust instead of calling for their death. I think this would have been really successful in Germany too. If the Allied army were to have politely told Mr. Adolf to stop starving and killing people, everything would have been solved so peacefully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not just foreign nationals on college campuses. Now, Bands that have suggested the IDF be dismantled are banned from touring in America... It's perfectly fine to say "Defund the police" after a few rogue police officers (in some badly run police departments) kill some African Americans, but criticize the IDF or Israeli government (an organization which has no killed 60,000 or so and maybe 3-4 times that, while displacing and actively starving an entire country) and your visa is immediately revoked to perform as concerts in the US.

Is anyone else not seeing this lunacy and the complete double standard of all of this?

Some very reasonable solutions have been put forth in congress - like you should disclose if you possess foreign citizenship while running for office. I wonder if that will help us elucidate some things...

Nice try, OP.
This rapper led a cheer yelling “death, death to the IDF.” He encouraged thousands to join in.
I suppose had he led a chant yelling “death, death to the Palestines” you would feel the same way?

Looks like he FAFO.

There are plenty of Israeli singers who are on video singing about death to Gaza (Rinat Bar) or like the lovely Israeli singer Peretz who has a song titled “May your village burn”. But they are Israelis and nobody bats an eye if they sing about the death of Palestinians.

Listen. I’m sure there are plenty of examples of extreme rhetoric and hate speech on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides IN Israel and Palestine. Those are the directly impacted parties. The rhetoric on the Palestinian side is MUCH worse by orders of magnitude based on what I’ve seen, but setting that aside.

Have you ever seen a massive crowd IN THE WEST shouting DEATH to anyone before? I certainly haven’t. That’s not a thing that’s considered compatible with western values. Unless, apparently, Israel/Jews are involved. Why is that?

There was a mob of Jewish men who chanted “Death to Arabs” and attacked a woman in NYC a few months ago.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/mob-of-orthodox-jewish-men-chased-brooklyn-woman-after-mistaking-her-for-protester-against-israeli-security-minister

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not just foreign nationals on college campuses. Now, Bands that have suggested the IDF be dismantled are banned from touring in America... It's perfectly fine to say "Defund the police" after a few rogue police officers (in some badly run police departments) kill some African Americans, but criticize the IDF or Israeli government (an organization which has no killed 60,000 or so and maybe 3-4 times that, while displacing and actively starving an entire country) and your visa is immediately revoked to perform as concerts in the US.

Is anyone else not seeing this lunacy and the complete double standard of all of this?

Some very reasonable solutions have been put forth in congress - like you should disclose if you possess foreign citizenship while running for office. I wonder if that will help us elucidate some things...

Nice try, OP.
This rapper led a cheer yelling “death, death to the IDF.” He encouraged thousands to join in.
I suppose had he led a chant yelling “death, death to the Palestines” you would feel the same way?

Looks like he FAFO.

There are plenty of Israeli singers who are on video singing about death to Gaza (Rinat Bar) or like the lovely Israeli singer Peretz who has a song titled “May your village burn”. But they are Israelis and nobody bats an eye if they sing about the death of Palestinians.

Listen. I’m sure there are plenty of examples of extreme rhetoric and hate speech on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides IN Israel and Palestine. Those are the directly impacted parties. The rhetoric on the Palestinian side is MUCH worse by orders of magnitude based on what I’ve seen, but setting that aside.

Have you ever seen a massive crowd IN THE WEST shouting DEATH to anyone before? I certainly haven’t. That’s not a thing that’s considered compatible with western values. Unless, apparently, Israel/Jews are involved. Why is that?

There was a mob of Jewish men who chanted “Death to Arabs” and attacked a woman in NYC a few months ago.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/mob-of-orthodox-jewish-men-chased-brooklyn-woman-after-mistaking-her-for-protester-against-israeli-security-minister

Yeah that’s completely disgusting and inexcusable. But it’s a bunch of ultra-religious hasids in crown heights. They’re essentially a fringe cult that lives in isolation from society. The Glastonbury festival incident was a bunch of otherwise sane, normal, mainstream people. That’s what makes it especially scary. These views are becoming absolutely commonplace.