MCPS plans to rate schools on #s of kids in advanced classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you see the new strategic plan from MCPS? https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Hdm1k6oUdCCzMYUguo1u79btxoF22MP/view?usp=drivesdk

There are some things I like about it but I'm concerned that one of the things they'll be measuring schools on with their new scorecard is "% of students enrolled in advanced,
enriched, or accelerated courses and
programming (e.g., honors, AP, IB, dual
enrollment, centers for enriched studies)
disaggregated by reporting groups." In fact that is the only metric they have for the objective around enrichment.

Pushing schools to bulk up the numbers of kids in advanced classes seems like a terrible idea to me, especially if it is not mitigated by any other more appropriate measures around enrichment. It feels like it will either lead to more and more classes that are called "advanced" but actually are at or below grade level and don't actually provide enrichment to kids that need it, or they will try to put below-level kids in advanced classes where they'll struggle and it will be harder on everyone (kids at all levels and teachers trying to serve them all at the same time.)

I got the impression from the Board meeting yesterday that while the strategic plan goals are now final, the metrics might not be-- not 100% sure that's true, but might be worth a try to weigh in and try to get the goal amended or replaced with something that's not so counterproductive, or at least to add some other goal to counterbalance it? Who would be the right people to contact about this?

+1
This is how we got honors for all. Everyone's advanced in MCPS, even if they are struggling to get basic skills.

Enrollment is not meaningful. They should use objective measures, like scoring a 4 or 5 on an AP exam.

I don't disagree with you, but it's almost impossible to have these conversations without looking at past practice, and at the intersection of race and perceptions of success.

Right now, I think we can all agree that the standards for "Honors" classes are low, to the detriment of almost everyone. Kids who truly need remediation aren't getting it, and kids who need/want an academic challenge are also not getting it.

However, moving to a system where schools are "ranked" by percentage of kids who pass an AP exam also has issues, because it creates an incentive for schools to gatekeep who gets to take AP courses. I'm sure that sounds fine if you have a kid who teachers/administration tend to see as a "good student." If your kid is white/Asian, female, well-organized, listens well, and speaks up in class not too much and not too little, it's going to sound like a fine system. But if your kid is Black/Hispanic, a boy, has learning differences, or is marked as ELL even if they finished ELL programming in elementary school, you might start to think this is not the best system after all.

+1 the bias -- both conscious and subconscious -- against certain groups, and the perception that they are not 'prepared' or capable of succeeding in AP/advanced classes, is real and a well-documented concern that systemically and persistently contributes to the underrepresentation of certain population groups in such classes. Using AP scores as the metric by which to evaluate schools just exacerbates that.

Who is the audience for reporting these data?
Many colleges know MCPS is not credible since so many courses receive the honors weighting.
Parents either don't care, and the ones who do care know that the outcomes of the students in the course are more important than the % of students taking the course.

students and families? The community? The school district/decision makers? I guess I may be misunderstanding your question. There are loads and loads of people who care about equal access and representation in advanced courses and would want to see that data.

Great! Wonderful! I'm glad there are loads and loads of people who care about this. But I don't understand why they would care only about data on % of kids taking these courses, and not include alongside these data, the far more important data about outcomes for these courses .

Learning isn't about getting a participation trophy for an honors class which is clearly not honors--or for participating and doing poorly in a class that is honors level, due to not actually learning the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you see the new strategic plan from MCPS? https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Hdm1k6oUdCCzMYUguo1u79btxoF22MP/view?usp=drivesdk

There are some things I like about it but I'm concerned that one of the things they'll be measuring schools on with their new scorecard is "% of students enrolled in advanced,
enriched, or accelerated courses and
programming (e.g., honors, AP, IB, dual
enrollment, centers for enriched studies)
disaggregated by reporting groups." In fact that is the only metric they have for the objective around enrichment.

Pushing schools to bulk up the numbers of kids in advanced classes seems like a terrible idea to me, especially if it is not mitigated by any other more appropriate measures around enrichment. It feels like it will either lead to more and more classes that are called "advanced" but actually are at or below grade level and don't actually provide enrichment to kids that need it, or they will try to put below-level kids in advanced classes where they'll struggle and it will be harder on everyone (kids at all levels and teachers trying to serve them all at the same time.)

I got the impression from the Board meeting yesterday that while the strategic plan goals are now final, the metrics might not be-- not 100% sure that's true, but might be worth a try to weigh in and try to get the goal amended or replaced with something that's not so counterproductive, or at least to add some other goal to counterbalance it? Who would be the right people to contact about this?

+1
This is how we got honors for all. Everyone's advanced in MCPS, even if they are struggling to get basic skills.

Enrollment is not meaningful. They should use objective measures, like scoring a 4 or 5 on an AP exam.

I don't disagree with you, but it's almost impossible to have these conversations without looking at past practice, and at the intersection of race and perceptions of success.

Right now, I think we can all agree that the standards for "Honors" classes are low, to the detriment of almost everyone. Kids who truly need remediation aren't getting it, and kids who need/want an academic challenge are also not getting it.

However, moving to a system where schools are "ranked" by percentage of kids who pass an AP exam also has issues, because it creates an incentive for schools to gatekeep who gets to take AP courses. I'm sure that sounds fine if you have a kid who teachers/administration tend to see as a "good student." If your kid is white/Asian, female, well-organized, listens well, and speaks up in class not too much and not too little, it's going to sound like a fine system. But if your kid is Black/Hispanic, a boy, has learning differences, or is marked as ELL even if they finished ELL programming in elementary school, you might start to think this is not the best system after all.

+1 the bias -- both conscious and subconscious -- against certain groups, and the perception that they are not 'prepared' or capable of succeeding in AP/advanced classes, is real and a well-documented concern that systemically and persistently contributes to the underrepresentation of certain population groups in such classes. Using AP scores as the metric by which to evaluate schools just exacerbates that.

Who is the audience for reporting these data?
Many colleges know MCPS is not credible since so many courses receive the honors weighting.
Parents either don't care, and the ones who do care know that the outcomes of the students in the course are more important than the % of students taking the course.

students and families? The community? The school district/decision makers? I guess I may be misunderstanding your question. There are loads and loads of people who care about equal access and representation in advanced courses and would want to see that data.

Great! Wonderful! I'm glad there are loads and loads of people who care about this. But I don't understand why they would care only about data on % of kids taking these courses, and not include alongside these data, the far more important data about outcomes for these courses .

Learning isn't about getting a participation trophy for an honors class which is clearly not honors--or for participating and doing poorly in a class that is honors level, due to not actually learning the material.

Not sure why you feel the need to mock.

Both are important data. Both can and should be reported. Just responding to your statement that "enrollment is not meaningful" and the notion that "parents don't care and those who do know outcomes are more important." Because that's subjective, not settled fact, and you have now been provided reasons why people would care about the 'input' data in addition to the outcome data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you see the new strategic plan from MCPS? https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Hdm1k6oUdCCzMYUguo1u79btxoF22MP/view?usp=drivesdk

There are some things I like about it but I'm concerned that one of the things they'll be measuring schools on with their new scorecard is "% of students enrolled in advanced,
enriched, or accelerated courses and
programming (e.g., honors, AP, IB, dual
enrollment, centers for enriched studies)
disaggregated by reporting groups." In fact that is the only metric they have for the objective around enrichment.

Pushing schools to bulk up the numbers of kids in advanced classes seems like a terrible idea to me, especially if it is not mitigated by any other more appropriate measures around enrichment. It feels like it will either lead to more and more classes that are called "advanced" but actually are at or below grade level and don't actually provide enrichment to kids that need it, or they will try to put below-level kids in advanced classes where they'll struggle and it will be harder on everyone (kids at all levels and teachers trying to serve them all at the same time.)

I got the impression from the Board meeting yesterday that while the strategic plan goals are now final, the metrics might not be-- not 100% sure that's true, but might be worth a try to weigh in and try to get the goal amended or replaced with something that's not so counterproductive, or at least to add some other goal to counterbalance it? Who would be the right people to contact about this?

+1
This is how we got honors for all. Everyone's advanced in MCPS, even if they are struggling to get basic skills.

Enrollment is not meaningful. They should use objective measures, like scoring a 4 or 5 on an AP exam.

I don't disagree with you, but it's almost impossible to have these conversations without looking at past practice, and at the intersection of race and perceptions of success.

Right now, I think we can all agree that the standards for "Honors" classes are low, to the detriment of almost everyone. Kids who truly need remediation aren't getting it, and kids who need/want an academic challenge are also not getting it.

However, moving to a system where schools are "ranked" by percentage of kids who pass an AP exam also has issues, because it creates an incentive for schools to gatekeep who gets to take AP courses. I'm sure that sounds fine if you have a kid who teachers/administration tend to see as a "good student." If your kid is white/Asian, female, well-organized, listens well, and speaks up in class not too much and not too little, it's going to sound like a fine system. But if your kid is Black/Hispanic, a boy, has learning differences, or is marked as ELL even if they finished ELL programming in elementary school, you might start to think this is not the best system after all.

+1 the bias -- both conscious and subconscious -- against certain groups, and the perception that they are not 'prepared' or capable of succeeding in AP/advanced classes, is real and a well-documented concern that systemically and persistently contributes to the underrepresentation of certain population groups in such classes. Using AP scores as the metric by which to evaluate schools just exacerbates that.

Who is the audience for reporting these data?
Many colleges know MCPS is not credible since so many courses receive the honors weighting.
Parents either don't care, and the ones who do care know that the outcomes of the students in the course are more important than the % of students taking the course.

I assume the audience is primarily central office and the BOE in order to "hold schools accountable" to meeting MCPS performance goals.. So I would think that schools will feel pressure to get their numbers on the metric as high as possible. Hence the concern that if the only metric around enrichment is numbers of kids in advanced classes, schools will respond by enrolling as many kids as possible in advanced courses even if that doesn't do right by the kids or actually provide real enrichment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you see the new strategic plan from MCPS? https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Hdm1k6oUdCCzMYUguo1u79btxoF22MP/view?usp=drivesdk

There are some things I like about it but I'm concerned that one of the things they'll be measuring schools on with their new scorecard is "% of students enrolled in advanced,
enriched, or accelerated courses and
programming (e.g., honors, AP, IB, dual
enrollment, centers for enriched studies)
disaggregated by reporting groups." In fact that is the only metric they have for the objective around enrichment.

Pushing schools to bulk up the numbers of kids in advanced classes seems like a terrible idea to me, especially if it is not mitigated by any other more appropriate measures around enrichment. It feels like it will either lead to more and more classes that are called "advanced" but actually are at or below grade level and don't actually provide enrichment to kids that need it, or they will try to put below-level kids in advanced classes where they'll struggle and it will be harder on everyone (kids at all levels and teachers trying to serve them all at the same time.)

I got the impression from the Board meeting yesterday that while the strategic plan goals are now final, the metrics might not be-- not 100% sure that's true, but might be worth a try to weigh in and try to get the goal amended or replaced with something that's not so counterproductive, or at least to add some other goal to counterbalance it? Who would be the right people to contact about this?

+1
This is how we got honors for all. Everyone's advanced in MCPS, even if they are struggling to get basic skills.

Enrollment is not meaningful. They should use objective measures, like scoring a 4 or 5 on an AP exam.

I don't disagree with you, but it's almost impossible to have these conversations without looking at past practice, and at the intersection of race and perceptions of success.

Right now, I think we can all agree that the standards for "Honors" classes are low, to the detriment of almost everyone. Kids who truly need remediation aren't getting it, and kids who need/want an academic challenge are also not getting it.

However, moving to a system where schools are "ranked" by percentage of kids who pass an AP exam also has issues, because it creates an incentive for schools to gatekeep who gets to take AP courses. I'm sure that sounds fine if you have a kid who teachers/administration tend to see as a "good student." If your kid is white/Asian, female, well-organized, listens well, and speaks up in class not too much and not too little, it's going to sound like a fine system. But if your kid is Black/Hispanic, a boy, has learning differences, or is marked as ELL even if they finished ELL programming in elementary school, you might start to think this is not the best system after all.

Gatekeeping doesn’t need to be the goal or incentive as much as quality of instruction and similar practice across schools. What these should bring is inquiry into problems and solutions design to address quality of instruction, practice, and resource allocation.

Including even pointing out if ELL, boys, black/hispanics seem to be disproportionately being left out

Correct answer.

Also, by making this a metric, you incentivize schools to just artificially inflate or push kids into "advanced" classes to avoid "getting in trouble" with Central Office.

We need to both establish transparent, consistent criteria for honors courses and hold everyone to them. At the same time, we need to hold kids for what THEY are accountable for and not punish them for being the victims of poor classroom instruction or school mismanagement.

One problem is definitely poor classroom instruction. My 99 percentile (MAP) child’s 3rd grade teacher did not feel he should be in ELC (she expressed this in an email to me) but could not stop him because he met CO criteria.

The 4th grade ELC teacher was terrible and did not explain how he could improve his writing: all she could think to do was write “WHAT MORE CAN YOU SAY” in bigger and bigger letters with each paper. Very helpful.

His 5th grade ELC teacher was excellent. She provided him the right guidance and support and he flourished.

I am so grateful DS is moving into greener pastures next school year. Some other MCPS ES have a good environment where the teaching is great and staff is happy. Unfortunately ours was not one of those schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you see the new strategic plan from MCPS? https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Hdm1k6oUdCCzMYUguo1u79btxoF22MP/view?usp=drivesdk

There are some things I like about it but I'm concerned that one of the things they'll be measuring schools on with their new scorecard is "% of students enrolled in advanced,
enriched, or accelerated courses and
programming (e.g., honors, AP, IB, dual
enrollment, centers for enriched studies)
disaggregated by reporting groups." In fact that is the only metric they have for the objective around enrichment.

Pushing schools to bulk up the numbers of kids in advanced classes seems like a terrible idea to me, especially if it is not mitigated by any other more appropriate measures around enrichment. It feels like it will either lead to more and more classes that are called "advanced" but actually are at or below grade level and don't actually provide enrichment to kids that need it, or they will try to put below-level kids in advanced classes where they'll struggle and it will be harder on everyone (kids at all levels and teachers trying to serve them all at the same time.)

I got the impression from the Board meeting yesterday that while the strategic plan goals are now final, the metrics might not be-- not 100% sure that's true, but might be worth a try to weigh in and try to get the goal amended or replaced with something that's not so counterproductive, or at least to add some other goal to counterbalance it? Who would be the right people to contact about this?

+1
This is how we got honors for all. Everyone's advanced in MCPS, even if they are struggling to get basic skills.

Enrollment is not meaningful. They should use objective measures, like scoring a 4 or 5 on an AP exam.

I don't disagree with you, but it's almost impossible to have these conversations without looking at past practice, and at the intersection of race and perceptions of success.

Right now, I think we can all agree that the standards for "Honors" classes are low, to the detriment of almost everyone. Kids who truly need remediation aren't getting it, and kids who need/want an academic challenge are also not getting it.

However, moving to a system where schools are "ranked" by percentage of kids who pass an AP exam also has issues, because it creates an incentive for schools to gatekeep who gets to take AP courses. I'm sure that sounds fine if you have a kid who teachers/administration tend to see as a "good student." If your kid is white/Asian, female, well-organized, listens well, and speaks up in class not too much and not too little, it's going to sound like a fine system. But if your kid is Black/Hispanic, a boy, has learning differences, or is marked as ELL even if they finished ELL programming in elementary school, you might start to think this is not the best system after all.

+1 the bias -- both conscious and subconscious -- against certain groups, and the perception that they are not 'prepared' or capable of succeeding in AP/advanced classes, is real and a well-documented concern that systemically and persistently contributes to the underrepresentation of certain population groups in such classes. Using AP scores as the metric by which to evaluate schools just exacerbates that.

Who is the audience for reporting these data?
Many colleges know MCPS is not credible since so many courses receive the honors weighting.
Parents either don't care, and the ones who do care know that the outcomes of the students in the course are more important than the % of students taking the course.

students and families? The community? The school district/decision makers? I guess I may be misunderstanding your question. There are loads and loads of people who care about equal access and representation in advanced courses and would want to see that data.

Great! Wonderful! I'm glad there are loads and loads of people who care about this. But I don't understand why they would care only about data on % of kids taking these courses, and not include alongside these data, the far more important data about outcomes for these courses .

Learning isn't about getting a participation trophy for an honors class which is clearly not honors--or for participating and doing poorly in a class that is honors level, due to not actually learning the material.

Not sure why you feel the need to mock.

Both are important data. Both can and should be reported. Just responding to your statement that "enrollment is not meaningful" and the notion that "parents don't care and those who do know outcomes are more important." Because that's subjective, not settled fact, and you have now been provided reasons why people would care about the 'input' data in addition to the outcome data.

Not sure why you feel mocked when someone is expressing their opinion. The fact is that the MCPS proposal is only focusing on the enrollment data and does not include outcome data for the "honors" classes as far as I can see. That is a shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s why we have honors for all.

I think Taylor's plan is to not have honors for all.

https://theblackandwhite.net/80785/news/mcps-to-change-grading-policy-for-the-2025-2026-school-year/

MCPS also plans to audit course designations of the “honors” label, to ensure continued difficulty and the integrity of weighted GPAs.

What does that mean "audit course designations"? Does that mean that they'll observe the issue for a few years and do nothing about it til the next Superintendent?

Changes are supposed to be implemented in 2025/26 cal year.

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DFHRPN6EFA43/$file/Grading%20and%20Reporting%20Regulation%20Revision%20250410%20PPT%20REV.pdf

But what changes--what does audit mean in this context?
"Audit courses for use of honors designations and benchmark weighting models."

Earlier this year a group from central office came through our high school and reviewed an honors science course. They felt it lacked adequate student "inquiry," and therefore was too easy for honors and needed to be fixed. I am not sure how they're going to go about fixing it, but I assume this is the model for audits

When you say they said it "needed to be fixed" did you get the sense the school was supposed to change it or that central was going to be changing it?

PP here. The answer to that question is above my pay grade.

How can an individual school fix that? If “honors” health or “honors” English are insufficiently rigorous, that’s a curricular issue for the most part.

I would imagine if MCPS finds it "insufficiently rigorous", then the "honors" designation would be removed. Or, yes, MCPS would have to change the curriculum, which I highly doubt will happen next year. You would think that MCPS would know already whether the curriculum was "rigorous" since they are the ones that pick the curriculum.

How does curriculum stuff work in high school? Does MCPS pick (or design in-house) an on-grade-level and honors-level curriculum for each core class and require schools use them? Or do schools have flexibility to pick/design their own!

Depends on the course. Some of the has specifically selected textbooks and curriculum from vendors. Some has extras that have been developed by MCPS CO. Other particularly pilot courses and magnet courses have been developed from a variety of sources and approved and then are taught by usually are very very limited number of people.

Are those decisions all made at the central office level, though? Or are some of them made by schools/teachers? For the core classes in the core subjects, I mean.

They are all APPROVED at CO and BOE. But like I said what the curriculum is and the approval process is handled will vary depending on the class. For example AP English vs English 9. And externally purchased curriculum vs an in-house designed one by a teacher and curriculum design department.

[Anonymous]

Race to the bottom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s why we have honors for all.

I think Taylor's plan is to not have honors for all.

https://theblackandwhite.net/80785/news/mcps-to-change-grading-policy-for-the-2025-2026-school-year/

MCPS also plans to audit course designations of the “honors” label, to ensure continued difficulty and the integrity of weighted GPAs.

What does that mean "audit course designations"? Does that mean that they'll observe the issue for a few years and do nothing about it til the next Superintendent?

Changes are supposed to be implemented in 2025/26 cal year.

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DFHRPN6EFA43/$file/Grading%20and%20Reporting%20Regulation%20Revision%20250410%20PPT%20REV.pdf

But what changes--what does audit mean in this context?
"Audit courses for use of honors designations and benchmark weighting models."

Earlier this year a group from central office came through our high school and reviewed an honors science course. They felt it lacked adequate student "inquiry," and therefore was too easy for honors and needed to be fixed. I am not sure how they're going to go about fixing it, but I assume this is the model for audits

When you say they said it "needed to be fixed" did you get the sense the school was supposed to change it or that central was going to be changing it?

PP here. The answer to that question is above my pay grade.

How can an individual school fix that? If “honors” health or “honors” English are insufficiently rigorous, that’s a curricular issue for the most part.

I would imagine if MCPS finds it "insufficiently rigorous", then the "honors" designation would be removed. Or, yes, MCPS would have to change the curriculum, which I highly doubt will happen next year. You would think that MCPS would know already whether the curriculum was "rigorous" since they are the ones that pick the curriculum.

How does curriculum stuff work in high school? Does MCPS pick (or design in-house) an on-grade-level and honors-level curriculum for each core class and require schools use them? Or do schools have flexibility to pick/design their own!

Depends on the course. Some of the has specifically selected textbooks and curriculum from vendors. Some has extras that have been developed by MCPS CO. Other particularly pilot courses and magnet courses have been developed from a variety of sources and approved and then are taught by usually are very very limited number of people.

Are those decisions all made at the central office level, though? Or are some of them made by schools/teachers? For the core classes in the core subjects, I mean.

They are all APPROVED at CO and BOE. But like I said what the curriculum is and the approval process is handled will vary depending on the class. For example AP English vs English 9. And externally purchased curriculum vs an in-house designed one by a teacher and curriculum design department.

Oh interesting. Are there any common courses where the curriculum is dictated top-down and look the same at most high schools (like, say, English 9 & 10 and Honors English 9 & 10, or Biology & Chemistry and Honors Biology & Chemistry)? Or are even common courses like those generally submitted by the school for approval by CO, so could be very different from school to school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s why we have honors for all.

I think Taylor's plan is to not have honors for all.

https://theblackandwhite.net/80785/news/mcps-to-change-grading-policy-for-the-2025-2026-school-year/

MCPS also plans to audit course designations of the “honors” label, to ensure continued difficulty and the integrity of weighted GPAs.

Anyone know if this is high-school only, or if they're also planning on auditing middle school courses as well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did you see the new strategic plan from MCPS? https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Hdm1k6oUdCCzMYUguo1u79btxoF22MP/view?usp=drivesdk

There are some things I like about it but I'm concerned that one of the things they'll be measuring schools on with their new scorecard is "% of students enrolled in advanced,
enriched, or accelerated courses and
programming (e.g., honors, AP, IB, dual
enrollment, centers for enriched studies)
disaggregated by reporting groups." In fact that is the only metric they have for the objective around enrichment.

Pushing schools to bulk up the numbers of kids in advanced classes seems like a terrible idea to me, especially if it is not mitigated by any other more appropriate measures around enrichment. It feels like it will either lead to more and more classes that are called "advanced" but actually are at or below grade level and don't actually provide enrichment to kids that need it, or they will try to put below-level kids in advanced classes where they'll struggle and it will be harder on everyone (kids at all levels and teachers trying to serve them all at the same time.)

I got the impression from the Board meeting yesterday that while the strategic plan goals are now final, the metrics might not be-- not 100% sure that's true, but might be worth a try to weigh in and try to get the goal amended or replaced with something that's not so counterproductive, or at least to add some other goal to counterbalance it? Who would be the right people to contact about this?

+1
This is how we got honors for all. Everyone's advanced in MCPS, even if they are struggling to get basic skills.

Enrollment is not meaningful. They should use objective measures, like scoring a 4 or 5 on an AP exam.

I don't disagree with you, but it's almost impossible to have these conversations without looking at past practice, and at the intersection of race and perceptions of success.

Right now, I think we can all agree that the standards for "Honors" classes are low, to the detriment of almost everyone. Kids who truly need remediation aren't getting it, and kids who need/want an academic challenge are also not getting it.

However, moving to a system where schools are "ranked" by percentage of kids who pass an AP exam also has issues, because it creates an incentive for schools to gatekeep who gets to take AP courses. I'm sure that sounds fine if you have a kid who teachers/administration tend to see as a "good student." If your kid is white/Asian, female, well-organized, listens well, and speaks up in class not too much and not too little, it's going to sound like a fine system. But if your kid is Black/Hispanic, a boy, has learning differences, or is marked as ELL even if they finished ELL programming in elementary school, you might start to think this is not the best system after all.

+1 the bias -- both conscious and subconscious -- against certain groups, and the perception that they are not 'prepared' or capable of succeeding in AP/advanced classes, is real and a well-documented concern that systemically and persistently contributes to the underrepresentation of certain population groups in such classes. Using AP scores as the metric by which to evaluate schools just exacerbates that.

Who is the audience for reporting these data?
Many colleges know MCPS is not credible since so many courses receive the honors weighting.
Parents either don't care, and the ones who do care know that the outcomes of the students in the course are more important than the % of students taking the course.

students and families? The community? The school district/decision makers? I guess I may be misunderstanding your question. There are loads and loads of people who care about equal access and representation in advanced courses and would want to see that data.

Great! Wonderful! I'm glad there are loads and loads of people who care about this. But I don't understand why they would care only about data on % of kids taking these courses, and not include alongside these data, the far more important data about outcomes for these courses .

Learning isn't about getting a participation trophy for an honors class which is clearly not honors--or for participating and doing poorly in a class that is honors level, due to not actually learning the material.

Agree. This is going to make things worse than they are now -- and things are already really bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s why we have honors for all.

I think Taylor's plan is to not have honors for all.

https://theblackandwhite.net/80785/news/mcps-to-change-grading-policy-for-the-2025-2026-school-year/

MCPS also plans to audit course designations of the “honors” label, to ensure continued difficulty and the integrity of weighted GPAs.

What does that mean "audit course designations"? Does that mean that they'll observe the issue for a few years and do nothing about it til the next Superintendent?

Changes are supposed to be implemented in 2025/26 cal year.

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/DFHRPN6EFA43/$file/Grading%20and%20Reporting%20Regulation%20Revision%20250410%20PPT%20REV.pdf

But what changes--what does audit mean in this context?
"Audit courses for use of honors designations and benchmark weighting models."

Earlier this year a group from central office came through our high school and reviewed an honors science course. They felt it lacked adequate student "inquiry," and therefore was too easy for honors and needed to be fixed. I am not sure how they're going to go about fixing it, but I assume this is the model for audits

When you say they said it "needed to be fixed" did you get the sense the school was supposed to change it or that central was going to be changing it?

PP here. The answer to that question is above my pay grade.

How can an individual school fix that? If “honors” health or “honors” English are insufficiently rigorous, that’s a curricular issue for the most part.

I would imagine if MCPS finds it "insufficiently rigorous", then the "honors" designation would be removed. Or, yes, MCPS would have to change the curriculum, which I highly doubt will happen next year. You would think that MCPS would know already whether the curriculum was "rigorous" since they are the ones that pick the curriculum.

How does curriculum stuff work in high school? Does MCPS pick (or design in-house) an on-grade-level and honors-level curriculum for each core class and require schools use them? Or do schools have flexibility to pick/design their own!

Depends on the course. Some of the has specifically selected textbooks and curriculum from vendors. Some has extras that have been developed by MCPS CO. Other particularly pilot courses and magnet courses have been developed from a variety of sources and approved and then are taught by usually are very very limited number of people.

Are those decisions all made at the central office level, though? Or are some of them made by schools/teachers? For the core classes in the core subjects, I mean.

They are all APPROVED at CO and BOE. But like I said what the curriculum is and the approval process is handled will vary depending on the class. For example AP English vs English 9. And externally purchased curriculum vs an in-house designed one by a teacher and curriculum design department.

Oh interesting. Are there any common courses where the curriculum is dictated top-down and look the same at most high schools (like, say, English 9 & 10 and Honors English 9 & 10, or Biology & Chemistry and Honors Biology & Chemistry)? Or are even common courses like those generally submitted by the school for approval by CO, so could be very different from school to school?

Honors English 9/10 is the same as English 9/10. Same curriculum, no separate requirement to have different assignments, harder readings, etc. That is why it doesn't really matter which of these your schools chooses -- right now, it's the same course. Also -- the base curriculum is terrible. It's written by central office and has a bunch of below grade level novels, including graphic novels for struggling readers. There is maybe 1 on-grade level choice per quarter, but the teachers get to decide what to offer their students, and you can guess in the pilot what they choose -- nearly no one chose the on-grade level novel. If you want your kid to be prepared for AP English, you had better supplement. -DP

[Anonymous]

My kid's counselor put our kid in honors calculus and would not let him switch out. Kind of sucked because he had never been in honors math before and ended up with a "D". Besides the grade, our kid was miserable and spent a lot of hours just trying to keep up.
We talked to the teacher about it and she said straight up that she thought he should have transferred out and she OK'd the paperwork but the counselor would not sign off because it would hurt the numbers.

One of my friends is a long time math professor and she said the American educational system seems designed to demonstrate endless upward progress on the numbers while churning out kids who hate "math" and seem determined to avoid at all costs in their real life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's counselor put our kid in honors calculus and would not let him switch out. Kind of sucked because he had never been in honors math before and ended up with a "D". Besides the grade, our kid was miserable and spent a lot of hours just trying to keep up.
We talked to the teacher about it and she said straight up that she thought he should have transferred out and she OK'd the paperwork but the counselor would not sign off because it would hurt the numbers.

One of my friends is a long time math professor and she said the American educational system seems designed to demonstrate endless upward progress on the numbers while churning out kids who hate "math" and seem determined to avoid at all costs in their real life.

Are you sure? There isn't a class called Honors Calculus. There's Calculus with Applications, which is not tagged as Honors, and then there's AP Calculus AB or BC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's counselor put our kid in honors calculus and would not let him switch out. Kind of sucked because he had never been in honors math before and ended up with a "D". Besides the grade, our kid was miserable and spent a lot of hours just trying to keep up.
We talked to the teacher about it and she said straight up that she thought he should have transferred out and she OK'd the paperwork but the counselor would not sign off because it would hurt the numbers.

One of my friends is a long time math professor and she said the American educational system seems designed to demonstrate endless upward progress on the numbers while churning out kids who hate "math" and seem determined to avoid at all costs in their real life.

We only have ap calc. No regular or honors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's counselor put our kid in honors calculus and would not let him switch out. Kind of sucked because he had never been in honors math before and ended up with a "D". Besides the grade, our kid was miserable and spent a lot of hours just trying to keep up.
We talked to the teacher about it and she said straight up that she thought he should have transferred out and she OK'd the paperwork but the counselor would not sign off because it would hurt the numbers.

One of my friends is a long time math professor and she said the American educational system seems designed to demonstrate endless upward progress on the numbers while churning out kids who hate "math" and seem determined to avoid at all costs in their real life.

This is exactly the kind of story that would be great to send to the Board of Education, if you'd be willing to? Perfect illustration of the problem with evaluating schools based on this metric, and I think it is actually totally within the realm of possibility for the Board to push MCPS to change what metrics it is using to report back on its progress to the Board and the community.