Why is there no levelling for middle school English/ELA (is there a backstory?), and is that possible to change?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in advanced English at an MCPS middle school...

This comment is why we need more parent education. "Advanced" English is literally the only option, PP. Your child is learning reading and writing with a totally heterogenous group of kids, from the 99.9th percentile kid who had bad lottery luck, to the kid who has never visited a public library and is reading at a 3rd grade level.

That's literally the point of this entire discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the discussion about the new middle school ELA curriculum at last week's BOE meeting, a number of board members talked about the challenges of having mixed levels in the same middle school English classes-- that it seems like not the most helpful option either for students who are behind, for students who are gifted/advanced, or for teachers who have to try to differentiate for such a wide range of students.

Why is it like this? Is there a backstory? Did there used to be differences in levels? Are there good reasons MCPS/schools have articulated not to do this? (If you're going to say "it's about equity," can you explain some of the specifics of why? Because it seems like for English you don't have the same "tracking" concerns you might have in subjects like math where a kid gets locked into a pathway early and it's harder to go up or down-- it should be pretty easy to change English levels from year to year-- and besides, in math where that might be more of a real concern, that hasn't stopped them from having different levels! So why not English?)

Assuming this is a better pathway, is this something where there's room to advocate for changes? Board members seem supportive, could a group of people lobby them to push the issue and get MCPS to make changes? Or is this something that they basically defer to central office on and so it would be better to lobby central office on this? (And if so, what offices are the most sympathetic/opposed and what arguments might they be most responsive to? How does change actually get made at Central Office?) Is this something MCCPTA has done in the past or could do now, and/or are there other parent groups MCPS might listen to more?

By bringing every one down to the LCD they can consider the achievement gap closed!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, all middle schools English classes are taught in advanced level? What are AP and Honor English classes then? Are those for HS only?

All middle school ELA classes are "advanced" on paper, but in reality they are barely at grade level. I mean that literally. I have a current 6th grader. This year they have read two books in "Advanced" English. One had a lexile level of 810L and the other was in the low 900s. That's roughly the 25th percentile and 50th percentile for grade level in 6th grade. On the flip side, before this change in 2020, the norm for Advanced English in 6th grade was books in the 1400s, and that is still the norm at the Humanities Magnet (admission to which is now famously by lottery).

For HS, the current pathway is "Honors English 9" and "Honors English 10" both of which are again barely on grade level, and then AP Literature and AP Language in 11th and 12th. Some schools have begun offering AP Seminar in 10th to deal with the lack of a true Honors option, but that's not universal and it still means that highly able kids go from 6th - 9th grade barely reading at grade level for school.

That’s sadly better than the “honors” English 9 texts, which have some HL texts in the 400s.

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

I'm sure the excerpts the kids are getting in MS are equally bad, but I was shocked at how low level the books were.

[Anonymous]

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

Thanks! That looks pretty typical to me (e.g. Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men)... so not too bad? But certainly not "advanced"; probably at least 25% of MCPS 9th graders would be up for more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

Thanks! That looks pretty typical to me (e.g. Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men)... so not too bad? But certainly not "advanced"; probably at least 25% of MCPS 9th graders would be up for more.

6th-8th Is "Advanced English"
HS is "Honors English"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

Thanks! That looks pretty typical to me (e.g. Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men)... so not too bad? But certainly not "advanced"; probably at least 25% of MCPS 9th graders would be up for more.

Ok, but they aren't actually reading those books. They might read excerpts from R&J or OM&M but they are not reading the book start to finish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

Thanks! That looks pretty typical to me (e.g. Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men)... so not too bad? But certainly not "advanced"; probably at least 25% of MCPS 9th graders would be up for more.

Ok, but they aren't actually reading those books. They might read excerpts from R&J or OM&M but they are not reading the book start to finish.

My kid read both. I think there can be variances from school to school or even teacher to teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason for heterogeneous grouping is so that all students get exposed to higher level thinking and tasks that were happening only in the Honors classes. The model is similar to elementary with multiple skill levels in one class. At the middle school level this can work well for English, Science, and World Studies when ~25% of kids are advanced, 50% of kids are grade level, and no more than 25% are behind. Strategic grouping and well structured assignments can keep the whole class moving forward with enough engaged & independent learners, and the teacher can effectively help a small number of students needing more support.

The problem really comes in when that mix of students gets to be more than 1/3 of the class. Things just grind down - it’s hard to keep pace, more % absent, fewer kids ready to learn. While it’s easy to say when this happens, we should split into two levels, but how do you draw the line? Student abilities and readiness for any given course fall on a bell curve. Parents, teachers, and administrators will all disagree on where to draw the line. Do we only separate the top 25% and really let them accelerate, leaving enough capable kids in the other group so there is a critical mass to still engage in rich content, although at a slower pace? Or do we separate the bottom 25% into remedial classes, which has shown us over decades to simply relegate that group of kid to never catching up or being exposed to higher level thinking.

This doesn’t have an easy solution.

I think this statement lacks supportive evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason for heterogeneous grouping is so that all students get exposed to higher level thinking and tasks that were happening only in the Honors classes...

Or do we separate the bottom 25% into remedial classes, which has shown us over decades to simply relegate that group of kid to never catching up or being exposed to higher level thinking.

This doesn’t have an easy solution.

The thing is, the kids at the bottom of these classes are often struggling just to read the material. They do not catch up under the current model. I'm not exactly sure how you think they benefit from listening to someone else's "higher level thinking." Many districts continue this model and put all kids into AP Lang. It does not have the intended effect. - AP Lang teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the discussion about the new middle school ELA curriculum at last week's BOE meeting, a number of board members talked about the challenges of having mixed levels in the same middle school English classes-- that it seems like not the most helpful option either for students who are behind, for students who are gifted/advanced, or for teachers who have to try to differentiate for such a wide range of students.

Why is it like this? Is there a backstory? Did there used to be differences in levels? Are there good reasons MCPS/schools have articulated not to do this? (If you're going to say "it's about equity," can you explain some of the specifics of why? Because it seems like for English you don't have the same "tracking" concerns you might have in subjects like math where a kid gets locked into a pathway early and it's harder to go up or down-- it should be pretty easy to change English levels from year to year-- and besides, in math where that might be more of a real concern, that hasn't stopped them from having different levels! So why not English?)

Assuming this is a better pathway, is this something where there's room to advocate for changes? Board members seem supportive, could a group of people lobby them to push the issue and get MCPS to make changes? Or is this something that they basically defer to central office on and so it would be better to lobby central office on this? (And if so, what offices are the most sympathetic/opposed and what arguments might they be most responsive to? How does change actually get made at Central Office?) Is this something MCCPTA has done in the past or could do now, and/or are there other parent groups MCPS might listen to more?

By bringing every one down to the LCD they can consider the achievement gap closed!

And that is the goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

Thanks! That looks pretty typical to me (e.g. Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men)... so not too bad? But certainly not "advanced"; probably at least 25% of MCPS 9th graders would be up for more.

Ok, but they aren't actually reading those books. They might read excerpts from R&J or OM&M but they are not reading the book start to finish.

What is the deal with reading excerpts instead of entire books. And what happened to raising the bar, not lowering it to the LCD? Such mediocrity, mcps.

[Anonymous]

This happened because of maga parents

All their babies were genius hence they badgered teachers and principals etc for years finally the system gave up

Everyone takes same class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is in advanced English at an MCPS middle school...

This comment is why we need more parent education. "Advanced" English is literally the only option, PP. Your child is learning reading and writing with a totally heterogenous group of kids, from the 99.9th percentile kid who had bad lottery luck, to the kid who has never visited a public library and is reading at a 3rd grade level.

That's literally the point of this entire discussion.

Or MCPS could just title things accurately and call the class “Grade 9 English” or “English for All.” It’s not parents who need to be educated about how to interpret MCPS title inflation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do you have any examples of books kids are reading in 9th grade English?

Texts are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14XsG7HxnXcr5tO7u7HpE7I28XTur-dKuQmAkJ1T0z_I/edit

Thanks! That looks pretty typical to me (e.g. Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men)... so not too bad? But certainly not "advanced"; probably at least 25% of MCPS 9th graders would be up for more.

Ok, but they aren't actually reading those books. They might read excerpts from R&J or OM&M but they are not reading the book start to finish.

My kid read both. I think there can be variances from school to school or even teacher to teacher.

Some schools have kids watch Romeo and Juliet rather than read the play. Ridiculous.