RTO and employees who live outside the DC metro

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of these posters seem to think in-office work is now dysfunctional. Yet, it was the standard/gold standard four years ago. Yes, I understand why people now want to WFH and cut the commute, but why is in-office work now less productive than pre-COVID? Is it just negative employee attitudes? Because, let’s be honest, despite all the claims of people working hard while WFH, we know there’s a lot of goofing off. WFH is like professional welfare - full pay for part-time effort.

Agreed, I’m always the naysayer in these conversations but I feel like my team gets a lot more done in person together and we also pick up on more of the social cues in communication. My commute is definitely a negative but I so much prefer our RTO and am hoping everyone else acclimates soon.

It depends on what your team does and if they are together in a group.

There are millions of Americans commuting every day to sit alone in an office or cube on conference calls. It’s insanity.

I’m spending 8-10 hours a week to sit alone in a conference room to meet with people on the west coast. I only leave the conference room to get lunch or use the bathroom. I do not know anyone or work with anyone in my office building but my employer tracks badge swipes and fires people who don’t meet the requirement.

I now do the bare minimum and started looking for a new job. I can’t work for an employer for much longer that is making me do something so inefficient and ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

“People as far away as Howard County” will need to commute to DC…

You kids are hilarious!

ICYMI: People commuted to DC from as far away as WV 5 days a week before covid.

We’ve been hybrid (2 or 3 days in the office and the rest remote) since a year after covid. People complained and threatened to quit. Some did quit. The rest came back.

Lessons learned:

1. Some people had moved to states where we aren’t registered to do business. They were told to move back to the dc metro area or they could no longer work for us. Some did, some didn’t.

2. We didn’t miss anyone we lost. Everyone is replaceable. We quickly realized that the whiners were dead weight or morale killers.

3. Commuting to DC twice a week is NBD…even for those of us who live in far flung outer burbs.

4. We schedule in person meetings when we are downtown. It’s nice. And it’s critical for new hires…especially recent grads who need to learn by watching what happens outside meetings.

5. Some people really weren’t working hard enough when remote. We watched them closely when they returned, worked them hard, etc. We cut some loose. No regrets.

6. We give everyone flexibility. Professionals handle it well. Anyone whining about commutes and childcare, etc. isn’t someone I want on my team. Guess what? My commute is longer than your commute and I have more kids than you do. Figure it out.

7. I’m pretty sure one of my staff doesn’t have childcare for her baby. HR says there’s nothing we can say or do about it. Ridiculous!

[Anonymous]

Even commuting NYC, Philly, Baltimore is a breeze of only two days in office.

My job in McLean our 66 year old IT director moved to his beach house in Delaware during Covid.

We are only back at work 2 days a week and he comes in Wed and Thursday and just stays Wed night at a cheap no frills hotel by office one night a week. Anyone can do that.

Now five days in office a different story

[Anonymous]

“ there are managers living at the beach in Florida lecturing their staff on the importance of coming into the office. This seems very hypocritical”

This is my office exactly. Leadership got a bee in its bonnet to RTO and everyone in the DC area had to start coming in, but meanwhile many, including top managers, had moved away, and nothing was done about that’s (and no, DC based staff do not earn more). Some divisions have only an admin staffer that has to come in while others in that division work from home wherever they live or, because we have no rules about it, from beach or foreighn locations that they decide to travel to. Meanwhile the head of HR—remote!—is sanctimoniously lecturing staff about being team players and the importance of being in the office. Ugh. It’s the unfairness and gaslighting that bothers me more than the actual commute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of these posters seem to think in-office work is now dysfunctional. Yet, it was the standard/gold standard four years ago. Yes, I understand why people now want to WFH and cut the commute, but why is in-office work now less productive than pre-COVID? Is it just negative employee attitudes? Because, let’s be honest, despite all the claims of people working hard while WFH, we know there’s a lot of goofing off. WFH is like professional welfare - full pay for part-time effort.

The point is Amazon and other companies were work from home long before the pandemic/4 years ago. So, my spouse who has been at Amazon long before the pandemic was always WFH with occasionally going in, maybe once a week, maybe every 2-3 weeks, now has to go in 5 days a week. We cannot move and uproot our kids. We cannot afford to move either. Nor does it make sense. While he's been at Amazon longer than most, its a turn and burn company so moving for Amazon makes no sense for us vs. commuting. Its sad as its been overall ok for us, great supervisor right now and don't want to leave. My husband doesn't goof off, nor does most of his team. Amazon can easily track when you are working and they are know to let go of people goofing off so that's not why.

They want to do layoffs without laying off as they can hire cheaper employees overseas and this way they get rid of people without layoffs. They also get tax breaks for the buildings that are pressuring people to come back for the business, especially for lunch (we will be packing lunch).

If your husband thinks he's valuable to the company he can push back and say "hey, I was wfh before the pandemic. I can't come into the office every week, much less every day. And see if he is given a special accommodation. If they say nope, he'll know where he stands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“People as far away as Howard County” will need to commute to DC…

You kids are hilarious!

ICYMI: People commuted to DC from as far away as WV 5 days a week before covid.

We’ve been hybrid (2 or 3 days in the office and the rest remote) since a year after covid. People complained and threatened to quit. Some did quit. The rest came back.

Lessons learned:

1. Some people had moved to states where we aren’t registered to do business. They were told to move back to the dc metro area or they could no longer work for us. Some did, some didn’t.

2. We didn’t miss anyone we lost. Everyone is replaceable. We quickly realized that the whiners were dead weight or morale killers.

3. Commuting to DC twice a week is NBD…even for those of us who live in far flung outer burbs.

4. We schedule in person meetings when we are downtown. It’s nice. And it’s critical for new hires…especially recent grads who need to learn by watching what happens outside meetings.

5. Some people really weren’t working hard enough when remote. We watched them closely when they returned, worked them hard, etc. We cut some loose. No regrets.

6. We give everyone flexibility. Professionals handle it well. Anyone whining about commutes and childcare, etc. isn’t someone I want on my team. Guess what? My commute is longer than your commute and I have more kids than you do. Figure it out.

7. I’m pretty sure one of my staff doesn’t have childcare for her baby. HR says there’s nothing we can say or do about it. Ridiculous!

Working in DC would be a lot better, but many jobs are in the middle of no where VA, where there is only one bridge and if there is an accident or snow, it can take hours to get there or get home. There is no good way to metro.

If someone doesn't want to work hard, they will not - in person or at home. Be real.

You probably have a nanny full-time caring for your kids. Most cannot afford that. You probably spend very little time with your kids.

You also are probably not on call 24-7 for a week at a time and have to get up at all hours to fix something, then get a few hours sleep to do an hour or more drive to go in. You probably just work your core hours and that's it. In Amazon its expected you work all day and night as its global. Normal is taking an 8 PM call with someone in another country. Those things will all stop now.

You sound miserable to work for which is probably why you had high turn over.

[Anonymous]

When did this thread become an Amazon-only discussion? It seems like one or more Amazon posters responds to every dissenting point as if the comment was directed only at them. OP seemed like they were talking about RTO, in general, not Amazon specifically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The roads are so clogged now. Traffic is horrible. This is all so unnecessary when half these people can just stay home.

No one is taking Metro, yet it has never been so accessible.

Metro is miserable and unsafe. No thanks.

Do you ride it? I have been riding it for 30 years safely and not usually miserably (especially when I envision the drivers going over the ALB)

Are you a guy? It’s frequently a gross experience for women. I do not need another guy rubbing himself against my winter coat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand how much longer this can go on. Commuting to sit on Teams calls all day with people in other cities is ridiculous. If they want us in the office they should take away video conferencing and Teams messaging capabilities.

Exactly except many teams don't work in the same building nor is there space for everyone to sit together. THey are still doing hot desks in some buildings.

This is what irritates me about my company. Some of our office locations moved to smaller spaces and got rid of assigned offices because everyone is working from home more. And then they instituted more days of RTO and people are fighting for office/desk space. And it's hard not to have an office space when you are in the office because most meetings are on Teams as people are all over the place. And even if everyone on a meeting is technically in the same office, there isn't enough office space for everyone to be in on the same day. You can't have both. Pick a plan and stick with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“People as far away as Howard County” will need to commute to DC…

You kids are hilarious!

ICYMI: People commuted to DC from as far away as WV 5 days a week before covid.

We’ve been hybrid (2 or 3 days in the office and the rest remote) since a year after covid. People complained and threatened to quit. Some did quit. The rest came back.

Lessons learned:

1. Some people had moved to states where we aren’t registered to do business. They were told to move back to the dc metro area or they could no longer work for us. Some did, some didn’t.

2. We didn’t miss anyone we lost. Everyone is replaceable. We quickly realized that the whiners were dead weight or morale killers.

3. Commuting to DC twice a week is NBD…even for those of us who live in far flung outer burbs.

4. We schedule in person meetings when we are downtown. It’s nice. And it’s critical for new hires…especially recent grads who need to learn by watching what happens outside meetings.

5. Some people really weren’t working hard enough when remote. We watched them closely when they returned, worked them hard, etc. We cut some loose. No regrets.

6. We give everyone flexibility. Professionals handle it well. Anyone whining about commutes and childcare, etc. isn’t someone I want on my team. Guess what? My commute is longer than your commute and I have more kids than you do. Figure it out.

7. I’m pretty sure one of my staff doesn’t have childcare for her baby. HR says there’s nothing we can say or do about it. Ridiculous!

Working in DC would be a lot better, but many jobs are in the middle of no where VA, where there is only one bridge and if there is an accident or snow, it can take hours to get there or get home. There is no good way to metro.

If someone doesn't want to work hard, they will not - in person or at home. Be real.

You probably have a nanny full-time caring for your kids. Most cannot afford that. You probably spend very little time with your kids.

You also are probably not on call 24-7 for a week at a time and have to get up at all hours to fix something, then get a few hours sleep to do an hour or more drive to go in. You probably just work your core hours and that's it. In Amazon its expected you work all day and night as its global. Normal is taking an 8 PM call with someone in another country. Those things will all stop now.

You sound miserable to work for which is probably why you had high turn over.

We didn’t have high turnover. We lost dead weight. The people who complained the most had either moved really far away or those who simply wanted to be fully remote because they didn’t want to work hard.

FTR, I don’t have a nanny, and I have a brutal commute. But I see my kids plenty since I only go downtown 2 or 3 times a week. I have lots of flexibility just like my coworkers. We are better off not being surrounded by complainers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of these posters seem to think in-office work is now dysfunctional. Yet, it was the standard/gold standard four years ago. Yes, I understand why people now want to WFH and cut the commute, but why is in-office work now less productive than pre-COVID? Is it just negative employee attitudes? Because, let’s be honest, despite all the claims of people working hard while WFH, we know there’s a lot of goofing off. WFH is like professional welfare - full pay for part-time effort.

The point is Amazon and other companies were work from home long before the pandemic/4 years ago. So, my spouse who has been at Amazon long before the pandemic was always WFH with occasionally going in, maybe once a week, maybe every 2-3 weeks, now has to go in 5 days a week. We cannot move and uproot our kids. We cannot afford to move either. Nor does it make sense. While he's been at Amazon longer than most, its a turn and burn company so moving for Amazon makes no sense for us vs. commuting. Its sad as its been overall ok for us, great supervisor right now and don't want to leave. My husband doesn't goof off, nor does most of his team. Amazon can easily track when you are working and they are know to let go of people goofing off so that's not why.

They want to do layoffs without laying off as they can hire cheaper employees overseas and this way they get rid of people without layoffs. They also get tax breaks for the buildings that are pressuring people to come back for the business, especially for lunch (we will be packing lunch).

If your husband thinks he's valuable to the company he can push back and say "hey, I was wfh before the pandemic. I can't come into the office every week, much less every day. And see if he is given a special accommodation. If they say nope, he'll know where he stands.

No, it doesn’t work that way. He does it or quits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“People as far away as Howard County” will need to commute to DC…

You kids are hilarious!

ICYMI: People commuted to DC from as far away as WV 5 days a week before covid.

We’ve been hybrid (2 or 3 days in the office and the rest remote) since a year after covid. People complained and threatened to quit. Some did quit. The rest came back.

Lessons learned:

1. Some people had moved to states where we aren’t registered to do business. They were told to move back to the dc metro area or they could no longer work for us. Some did, some didn’t.

2. We didn’t miss anyone we lost. Everyone is replaceable. We quickly realized that the whiners were dead weight or morale killers.

3. Commuting to DC twice a week is NBD…even for those of us who live in far flung outer burbs.

4. We schedule in person meetings when we are downtown. It’s nice. And it’s critical for new hires…especially recent grads who need to learn by watching what happens outside meetings.

5. Some people really weren’t working hard enough when remote. We watched them closely when they returned, worked them hard, etc. We cut some loose. No regrets.

6. We give everyone flexibility. Professionals handle it well. Anyone whining about commutes and childcare, etc. isn’t someone I want on my team. Guess what? My commute is longer than your commute and I have more kids than you do. Figure it out.

7. I’m pretty sure one of my staff doesn’t have childcare for her baby. HR says there’s nothing we can say or do about it. Ridiculous!

Working in DC would be a lot better, but many jobs are in the middle of no where VA, where there is only one bridge and if there is an accident or snow, it can take hours to get there or get home. There is no good way to metro.

If someone doesn't want to work hard, they will not - in person or at home. Be real.

You probably have a nanny full-time caring for your kids. Most cannot afford that. You probably spend very little time with your kids.

You also are probably not on call 24-7 for a week at a time and have to get up at all hours to fix something, then get a few hours sleep to do an hour or more drive to go in. You probably just work your core hours and that's it. In Amazon its expected you work all day and night as its global. Normal is taking an 8 PM call with someone in another country. Those things will all stop now.

You sound miserable to work for which is probably why you had high turn over.

We didn’t have high turnover. We lost dead weight. The people who complained the most had either moved really far away or those who simply wanted to be fully remote because they didn’t want to work hard.

FTR, I don’t have a nanny, and I have a brutal commute. But I see my kids plenty since I only go downtown 2 or 3 times a week. I have lots of flexibility just like my coworkers. We are better off not being surrounded by complainers.

So, you get flexibility and only go in two days a week. We are talking about five days a week and a rough commute that is not downtown. You don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand how much longer this can go on. Commuting to sit on Teams calls all day with people in other cities is ridiculous. If they want us in the office they should take away video conferencing and Teams messaging capabilities.

Exactly except many teams don't work in the same building nor is there space for everyone to sit together. THey are still doing hot desks in some buildings.

This is what irritates me about my company. Some of our office locations moved to smaller spaces and got rid of assigned offices because everyone is working from home more. And then they instituted more days of RTO and people are fighting for office/desk space. And it's hard not to have an office space when you are in the office because most meetings are on Teams as people are all over the place. And even if everyone on a meeting is technically in the same office, there isn't enough office space for everyone to be in on the same day. You can't have both. Pick a plan and stick with it.

I’m thinking we need to keep a portable office with a folding table and chair in the car.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When did this thread become an Amazon-only discussion? It seems like one or more Amazon posters responds to every dissenting point as if the comment was directed only at them. OP seemed like they were talking about RTO, in general, not Amazon specifically.

Because they are taking the lead with the five day a week. They hired folks saying no office, then changed it and are changing it again. Many don’t live close so they are forced to move or quit. They also don’t have enough office space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The roads are so clogged now. Traffic is horrible. This is all so unnecessary when half these people can just stay home.

Are you new here? Traffic is still much better than it was pre-covid. Yes, it's not as great as it was a year ago, but still better than pre-covid. I can get from Reston to Arlington in 30 minutes door to door. It used to take an hour.

The point is that it is UNNECESSARY. Are you new to life? Do you understand that it is unnecessary and makes life much more difficult for those of us who need to go to our workplaces in hospitals, labs, services, etc.?

Get help.