Economics of club volleyball

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Here is a message a coach posted on a Facebook group: "So 5 years ago there was no club within 25 minutes of our city so instead of driving my daughter 3 times a week I started a volleyball team under my ministry, Athletes In Ministry. We started with one team at my cost for uniforms, I was a uniform sales rep, and each parent pitched in for our 5 tournaments. I paid out of pocket for the club membership and insurance. STILL CHEAPER THAN THE LOCAL CLUBS! We have now progressed to serve over 300 girls in the last 5 years. We are very thankful for local churches and schools who let us use their gyms. I now charge $650 a girl for the club season… $200 towards unis/gear and one player from each teams extra $450 covers tourney entry! I still cover the team fees and insurance! I could go up in prices a little to cover this, but I want to give opportunities to kids. We are now a 501(c)3, but really get no help from sponsors really."

That's awesome and it would be great if there were more low cost options available to allow for girls (or boys) who might not otherwise be exposed to volleyball to have a chance to play. There is a club called Starlings (https://www.starlings.org/) that is for exactly that purpose, although I don't think they have a presence in the DMV. If you have had any exposure to DCIAA high school volleyball (the DC public school conference), it is really obvious how economics play an important role in the level of volleyball. The schools that draw from neighborhoods (or student populations) with higher income levels (Jackson-Reed in particular) tend to be much more successful than those from other parts of the city, and that seems to be mostly based on the number of girls on these teams that play club volleyball. I know that some clubs will offer scholarships or provide discounts to those with a demonstrated financial need although they don't always advertise that this might be an option so you might have ask.

That said, I think there is a difference between providing volleyball opportunities to those truly in need versus just wishing that club volleyball were less expensive. Running a club of a decent size is a full time job for one or more people and I don't know if it's reasonable for those people to sacrifice their own income to lower prices, especially when the demand is so high and many clubs have far more girls trying out every November than they can accommodate.

You seem to suggest that volleyball players belong to two categories: those truly in need and everyone else. In reality, there is a continuum in terms of parent income. Very rich parents can afford even the craziest club fees. They don't really care much as long as their kids come back home and report that they had fun. I feel like some clubs decided to serve these parents (that's how I interpret their fees) and don't really care whether the teams do well during tournaments. As long as they can convince the parents that the kids are physically active, make progress, and are having fun, they can continue to milk the parents.

On the other hand, other parents - even if they are not literally starving - may have to give up something (maybe retirement savings) to afford volleyball for their kids. Going to the club owner to say that they can barely afford volleyball might be too embarrassing. Having so many girls trying out in November is a very selfish reason to charge crazy club fees.

Obviously there is a spectrum of incomes between needy and ultra-wealthy, but I don't agree that clubs are "selfish" to charge high club fees. I'm not sure why a small business owner who has a high demand for their services should not charge what the market will bear. I understand that we all want what is best for our kids and it can be really frustrating to have some clubs that might otherwise be a good fit be out of reach financially. But how is that different than not being able to send your child to a pricey private school like GDS or Sidwell because it's too expensive? Just like public school or Catholic school might be the next best option, there is hopefully a volleyball club out there that would meet most of your needs at a price point that you could make work.

The current reality for volleyball is that it tends to be a sport where playing at a high level is expensive. With MVSA being the obvious outlier, almost all of the top clubs in the region are going to charge something more than $4000 (usually much more) for the season. These clubs tend to travel more and further, tend to have more practice time, and have better qualified coaches. They also tend to have better support and more experience with college recruiting. If your DD isn't interested in or not likely to be good enough to play in college, then you probably shouldn't consider these clubs. I'm not sure which clubs specifically you are referring to that charge crazy fees but don't get good results or don't have other positive outcomes, but I would probably avoid clubs like that.

You've heard about public education, haven't you?

Maybe read the next sentence? My point is that sometimes most of us can't have things that we would like to have because they are too expensive -whether that be a Porsche, a private school education, or our DD being able to play for certain volleyball clubs. Just like public school is an option, there are many clubs that are cheaper than VA Elite, Paramount, or Metro Travel. Hopefully us parents are able to do the best we can to get our kids into a club that works best for our circumstances.

I would expect this line of reasoning from a volleyball club owner, not from a parent. It is almost hilarious how you defend their right to charge whatever they want. The analogy with a private school is off the mark because the public education is free (there is nothing similar in volleyball).

NP and we are fairly new to volleyball but it doesn’t seem any different than any other sport. My daughter tried out at some of the really expensive clubs and some of the less expensive clubs. The least expensive one she tried out for in VA was Volley Viet, which was $700 for the season. Our local rec option also had a travel team for the spring, which was an option if she didn’t make a club anywhere. You are acting like the only option is to pay 5k+ and that’s not true. It’s true they might not get offered a spot on a team but that’s the case if the fee is 700 or 9000. My other kids have played different sports and the fees and competition vary widely there too.

I have a newfound respect for Volley Viet - I had no idea that they were the MVSA of Virginia. Given the affordability, I wonder why they only have a few teams and they don't have teams at each age level. Finding enough coaches might be challenging.

[Anonymous]

VolleyViet is extremely affordable and they do reasonable well in tournaments. They are definitely the MVSA of Virginia, even cheaper! And they have a boys team. I imagine they struggle to find enough coaches. I hope they can continue.

[Anonymous]

I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

B/C volleyball scholarships are limited to a headcount, the likelihood of a full scholarship for all 4 years is pretty small. Rosters are big at the college level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

B/C volleyball scholarships are limited to a headcount, the likelihood of a full scholarship for all 4 years is pretty small. Rosters are big at the college level.

I would add that most parents are realistic and know that their kids are unlikely to be recruited. They encourage their kids to stay active and play for fun without really considering the remote chance of a college scholarship. If your kid is tall and / or very talented, by all means - think about the math. I will likely have to come up with the money to put mine through college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

B/C volleyball scholarships are limited to a headcount, the likelihood of a full scholarship for all 4 years is pretty small. Rosters are big at the college level.

I would add that most parents are realistic and know that their kids are unlikely to be recruited. They encourage their kids to stay active and play for fun without really considering the remote chance of a college scholarship. If your kid is tall and / or very talented, by all means - think about the math. I will likely have to come up with the money to put mine through college.

Definitely this. I understand that club volleyball (and other travel sports) can be really expensive, but I hope that most parents don't think of their kids' activities in terms of return on investment, but instead whether they enjoy it and whether it provides life experiences that helps them develop as a person. Even if they don't intend to play volleyball in college, having played a team sport like club volleyball is a good activity to include on a college applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

B/C volleyball scholarships are limited to a headcount, the likelihood of a full scholarship for all 4 years is pretty small. Rosters are big at the college level.

This is a good short discussion of the numbers of D1 volleyball players and scholarships:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C4WeC6JMYOm/

Yes, volleyball scholarships are extremely difficult to get, but many of the players you see committed from Metro and Paramount are getting athletic scholarships.

One caveat is that it is even more difficult for liberos/defensive specialists to get athletic scholarships. It's simple supply and demand. Since height is not required to be a high level defensive player there are many, many more for D1 programs to choose from and they generally do not need to use any of their scholarships to get a quality libero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

B/C volleyball scholarships are limited to a headcount, the likelihood of a full scholarship for all 4 years is pretty small. Rosters are big at the college level.

I would add that most parents are realistic and know that their kids are unlikely to be recruited. They encourage their kids to stay active and play for fun without really considering the remote chance of a college scholarship. If your kid is tall and / or very talented, by all means - think about the math. I will likely have to come up with the money to put mine through college.

Definitely this. I understand that club volleyball (and other travel sports) can be really expensive, but I hope that most parents don't think of their kids' activities in terms of return on investment, but instead whether they enjoy it and whether it provides life experiences that helps them develop as a person. Even if they don't intend to play volleyball in college, having played a team sport like club volleyball is a good activity to include on a college applications.

This is an additional reason for the volleyball clubs to stop pretending that they are all competitive and charge a ton of money for their "travel" teams. Most parents would be happy with a regional option that costs less and minimizes overnight lodging for out-of-state tournaments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know how much a decent coach makes when coaching a club team? I do understand that some coaches volunteer, but those are the exception rather than the norm. I assume that they are paid hourly, but I don't have any idea how much they make. They also have some perks, like travel and lodging during tournaments.

I’ll answer this, since no one else has. I’m a regional level head coach, and I get paid $3600 for a six-month season.

Coaches, are you happy with how much you make as you coach your team(s)? Do you feel like the club owners value your experience? Is your pay reasonable when you take into account the club profits? Do you agree with the parents who claim that clubs take advantage of the demand and overcharge them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

Paramount 18s entirely D1? I don’t think so at all. Metro’s really the only one that is all D1 (with rare exceptions). Paramount is usually a 70/30 split between D1 and D3 (with some great D3 schools). Scholarships are underwhelming overall, except for the best in either team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

Paramount 18s entirely D1? I don’t think so at all. Metro’s really the only one that is all D1 (with rare exceptions). Paramount is usually a 70/30 split between D1 and D3 (with some great D3 schools). Scholarships are underwhelming overall, except for the best in either team.

Even for a top club like Metro - only approximately half of the players are actually getting a full ride scholarship. Many of the other players are either walk-ons or getting a 1-year scholarship. That is most likely also true for Paramount as well. So for other less competitive clubs, full ride scholarship is very rare. Many club "sell" the new parents that all of their players play DI schools. What they don't mention is that most are not on a full-scholarship and are still paying to attend college. So parents need to be realistic about their DD's motivation/work ethic and natural athletic talents when deciding on the club. It is unlikely that a player on the bench will get a full-ride scholarship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how the main thing that is being missed in this thread is the value that a few of the expensive clubs give to the players who play for them. For example, a Metro and a Paramount whose 18s teams are typically composed and of entirely D1 recruits. Say you play for a paramount/metro from U15-U18, and you pay around $11,000 a season when all is said and done ($44,000 over the course of 4 years). Now, because of the platform/exposure to college recruiting that these clubs provide, as well as the training, your child receives a full athletic scholarship to a Division 1 university. This D1 university would cost the normal student $25,000 per year to attend ($100,000 total). See the value now? However, if your child is not a D1 player or is not good enough to get a scholarship, it makes little sense to spend that money on club volleyball, and you would be better off playing for a lower budget club

Paramount 18s entirely D1? I don’t think so at all. Metro’s really the only one that is all D1 (with rare exceptions). Paramount is usually a 70/30 split between D1 and D3 (with some great D3 schools). Scholarships are underwhelming overall, except for the best in either team.

Even for a top club like Metro - only approximately half of the players are actually getting a full ride scholarship. Many of the other players are either walk-ons or getting a 1-year scholarship. That is most likely also true for Paramount as well. So for other less competitive clubs, full ride scholarship is very rare. Many club "sell" the new parents that all of their players play DI schools. What they don't mention is that most are not on a full-scholarship and are still paying to attend college. So parents need to be realistic about their DD's motivation/work ethic and natural athletic talents when deciding on the club. It is unlikely that a player on the bench will get a full-ride scholarship.

I think for Metro, it depends on the particular year as to how many of their D1 commits have 4-year, full rides, but you’re definitely correct that it’s not all. Even amongst those with athletic scholarships, different schools pay for different stuff. Some programs pay all tuition, room/board, books, and maybe even a stipend. Others maybe it’s only tuition or tuition and room/board or even less. Athletes at service academies get the same deal as everyone else so it’s technically not a scholarship but being a recruited athlete can make getting admitted easier. While still D1, Ivy League schools do not give any athletic scholarships at all.

All of this is further confirmation that looking at the cost of club volleyball as an investment that will yield returns in the form of an athletic scholarship is not realistic for most people. But I’d guess that many (if not most) of the players that want to play in college are motivated to do so because they love the game, regardless of whether there is any financial benefit or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the clubs in Montgomery County are making big profits.

Well, thank you MVSA! If MVSA was not putting pressure on the other MD clubs, we would likely see fees similar to those in VA. Virginia clubs are already trying to export their fees in MD (look at the DMV Volleyball Academy, where they charge almost $4000 for a season).

DMV Volleyball Academy fees is the most ridiculous out of all MD clubs. There are one of the worse performing club but fees are among the highest. Are they still affiliated with Vienna Elite?

As far as I know, Vienna Elite owner(s) bought the Rockville Sports Arena. Their plan was likely to export the Vienna Elite model to Maryland. I am not sure they are going to be successful in this area, especially with better clubs around charging more decent fees.

$4,000 per player and they own the practice facility!! Where is that $$$ going??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the clubs in Montgomery County are making big profits.

Well, thank you MVSA! If MVSA was not putting pressure on the other MD clubs, we would likely see fees similar to those in VA. Virginia clubs are already trying to export their fees in MD (look at the DMV Volleyball Academy, where they charge almost $4000 for a season).

DMV Volleyball Academy fees is the most ridiculous out of all MD clubs. There are one of the worse performing club but fees are among the highest. Are they still affiliated with Vienna Elite?

As far as I know, Vienna Elite owner(s) bought the Rockville Sports Arena. Their plan was likely to export the Vienna Elite model to Maryland. I am not sure they are going to be successful in this area, especially with better clubs around charging more decent fees.

$4,000 per player and they own the practice facility!! Where is that $$$ going??

The facility might be theirs on paper, but they are probably still paying for it. The same as most of our houses: we theoretically own them, but we are paying mortgage.