Is 'job-hopping' really that bad if I continue to receive promotions & raises?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

Unlimited time off means nothing for most especially if they cannot take if off. Bottomline is it comes down to salary and most people will go to the highest bidder. Especially in IT. Perks like working at home are the norm now. Perks like flexible hours are the norm. The only way to get ahead in IT is to job jump both for salary and title.

I work in hedge fund, we also need to jump if the goal is to cover a different sector. It’s common to see people jolt every 1.5 years until principal / director, but getting to managing director requires a bit of tenure. However, average joe will never get there so I am not sure promoting loyalty at the opportunity cost of xxx makes sense in their 20s.

[Anonymous]

NP. I think there is a distinction between an employee with technical skills, such as a software developer, vs an employee with soft skills (e.g. consultant, project manager). Completely agree with previous posts that tech people can switch jobs constantly and not harm their careers, at least while they are in their 20s and 30s.

Non-tech people can get away with this for awhile, but as a previous poster said, eventually the music stops. As you get older, the constant churn on the resume raises questions. As another poster said, if you can point to solid accomplishments at those positions, you should be able to overcome the objections. But the reality is that people are judgmental, and competition from younger, cheaper people grows more fierce in your 30s, and this will be exacerbated by an economic downturn.

Additionally, it is not the norm for people to shoot up in salary so quickly. Going from under $40k to $150k in less than four years would seem to make you a rock star with excellent achievements. You are approaching a ceiling for the non-C level, and with such little work experience, unless you have relationships to leverage, I doubt that you will get a C-suite position anytime soon. So moving to go up may not be possible next time.

Lastly, as an aside, I picked up a little undercurrent of "that's not my job"-ism from your previous post. That attitude is generally looked upon as immature and not worthy of a high-paid professional. If your soft skills are worthy of the salary, then "figure it out" and wow your employer with what you can do.

[Anonymous]

It's a major red flag that the companies you were with for such brief periods didn't try to retain you. I'm a hiring manager and right now we're filling butts in seats as fast as possible, but this will ebb...now is a good time to project stability and then you'd be able to explain as "took awhile to find the right fit". Not being fulfilling enough after 3 months isn't a good look.

[Anonymous]

I would see it as a red flag bc companies don’t want to invest the time and money recruiting and onboarding someone to have them leave within the year. We turn down candidates all the time who are not a direct fit for the role. It’s a waste of our staff’s time and money. However, on the flip side, if you can land a higher paying job and stick with that job for 3-4 years, then go for it! It doesn’t hurt to continue to put feelers out and keep your resume and interview skills polished.

[Anonymous]

Are you still in policy OP?

[Anonymous]

In my experience, every hiring manager will have personal preferences. One HM disliked the fact that I did a role in a different area for 3 years. Another one disliked for not knowing who the Fed chair was. If they don't like you first impression, they will find something to pick on. If you can establish a solid work-chemistry, then everything is negotiable.

Once you get into your mid-30s, you will be offered a wide range of salaries, some HM will want to offer you 60k and another may offer you 260k. While some of the executives here are great leaders, the average hiring managers are not. In FACT, some are so pathetic, they can't keep anyone decent for longer than 10 month, then they recruit whoever is desperate to take their lowly paid job, fail and PIP the employee only to repeat. don't let their bias define you.

[Anonymous]

If I saw a resume with serial short-stay jobs, I’d be concerned that the reason you left them was that you weren’t hitting the mark and either got told to move on or did so yourself to cheat the hangman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If I saw a resume with serial short-stay jobs, I’d be concerned that the reason you left them was that you weren’t hitting the mark and either got told to move on or did so yourself to cheat the hangman.

Exactly

[Anonymous]

Follow up question. What if company did try and retain you as evidenced by resume? Like, got promotion to next rung and you left 2 months later because opportunity was too good to pass up/new job counter offered to beat promotion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question. What if company did try and retain you as evidenced by resume? Like, got promotion to next rung and you left 2 months later because opportunity was too good to pass up/new job counter offered to beat promotion.

If it's truly just a rungs/title promotion, not a problem for me, although I'd be pushing you hard on judgement (what made you want to leave, what made you decide to stay, what made you change your mind and be talking to me now, what are the chances you're about to use my offer to do the same thing again?)

Leaving immediately after a substantial promotion (e.g. something like taking on a team) would be a yellow flag I would want explained.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question. What if company did try and retain you as evidenced by resume? Like, got promotion to next rung and you left 2 months later because opportunity was too good to pass up/new job counter offered to beat promotion.

If it's truly just a rungs/title promotion, not a problem for me, although I'd be pushing you hard on judgement (what made you want to leave, what made you decide to stay, what made you change your mind and be talking to me now, what are the chances you're about to use my offer to do the same thing again?)

Leaving immediately after a substantial promotion (e.g. something like taking on a team) would be a yellow flag I would want explained.

I should add... I can't think of a reason to tell anyone you took a retention promotion (vs. just a regular promotion).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question. What if company did try and retain you as evidenced by resume? Like, got promotion to next rung and you left 2 months later because opportunity was too good to pass up/new job counter offered to beat promotion.

If it's truly just a rungs/title promotion, not a problem for me, although I'd be pushing you hard on judgement (what made you want to leave, what made you decide to stay, what made you change your mind and be talking to me now, what are the chances you're about to use my offer to do the same thing again?)

Leaving immediately after a substantial promotion (e.g. something like taking on a team) would be a yellow flag I would want explained.

I should add... I can't think of a reason to tell anyone you took a retention promotion (vs. just a regular promotion).

Sorry, I was a little too theoretical there. Promotion wasn’t retention-based but regular but I was pretty far down the road with another company unbeknownst to current employer. Took the promotion as I figured I earned it but gave notice as soon as background check cleared 2 weeks later and stayed another six to help transition. Let new employer know in passing and they offered additional RSUs worth about $200K over 3 years. Smart of new employer tbh since it incentivizes me to stay.

But it sounds like the gist is that’s still a yellow flag, which is really helpful to know. I tend to keep getting better offers (many unsolicited) but I agree that gravy train ends at some point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

I actually would not be thrilled working for you. Many issues about last company are things you think are perks. I hate unlimited time off, folks setting own hours, unlimited WFH and the bullshit of full autonomy.

I had that set up and was a nightmare. Work becomes 24/7, always chasing people, boss gives autonomy so you do all it by your self no direction so boss can take credit of good or blame you if bad. And nonsense about I pay well heard it before.

My best job I loved I had 11 years. Zero WFH. No flex time, all same hours, CEO door always open. Not a meeting driven company. We also really worked no OT. We were very efficient. With entire company in office 9-5 and all vacations prebooked on a schedule we ran like clockwork. No wasted time chasing people, Zoom, waiting for responses. And folks with kids loved it. No Ot, no after hours emails. Steady. Sadly we made record money and got bought out.

I loved it. The shit show of everyone goes their own way sounds good. But in reality I got my thumb up
My ass waiting on folks wasting so much time

I hear you. I don’t doubt that there are many companies where these perks are BS. It really comes down to the manager and how honest he or she is. It’s about setting reasonable boundaries, and about doing what you’d want for yourself for your team. Most any decision, when made through that lens, can be made “good” for people. For what k describe to work you need trust and honesty; giving autonomy without direction and leaving folks rudderless is a bait and switch, offering unlimited time off and then not letting people take it is dishonest, telling people you occasionally need help after hours and then making it 24/7 on call is dishonest. I strive for transparency and fairness, and I make sure the team sees I’m in it with them. If something happens that means we have to work late one night, I’m there doing it too. If someone on my team does good work, i invite them to the senior leadership meeting to present it. You do the work, you get the credit. If I take time off, I ask my team to as well. Etc.

Last year I spent a month and a half in Hawaii. I worked a bit but I was mostly on/off parts of the day. The time difference was a bit wonky, but the flip side was lots of free afternoons. A team member asked me if they could do the same from Miami to be near family. I said sure. They were there for four months. Another team member asked me if we could work out a plan where they could flex hours so they could ski mornings for a few hours as they had a friend with a house in Tahoe. I said sure. I think they were there for about a month. Another one told me that they didn’t feel comfortable hiring a nanny with covid and could they break off at 3pm to take care of kids? Sure.

And here’s the important critical bit: you don’t count the hours and make people make them up. Why? Cause we are all adults. It’s about performance not butt-in-seat hours. In fact, during performance evals I’ve seen people get worse reviews because they work too much (ie a task shouldn’t take that long). What I’ve seen in my years is that this dynamic works very well for those are confident and high performing, works poorly for those who are not.

But I think you raise a fair point. It does mean sometimes you have to wait a little extra for someone to get back to you. Maybe it does sort of bleed work into longer hours as people chose to work when it suits them. Personally, a 9-5pm in person, zero flexibility micromanaged job sounds nightmarishly unpleasant, and id take the breakfast on the lanai with my laptop while I watch my kids run into the ocean option. And that’s the team and vision I’ve built for myself and my staff.

Honestly you sound out of touch. I live in the real world we don’t have vacation homes, nannies, travel much. Your flexibility impacts my flexibility. Take today. I dropped kid off at school as no bus, got Starbucks, went to home office and started work. I took a 45 minute break at 12:30 for lunch with wife and two kids home college. Then back to work till 630 pm. Had dinner with family and hung out family.

I don’t want to work till middle of night cause you are goofing off in Hawaii and working weird hours, same for Folks skiing, in fact we called out our CEO of America’s today for doing what you do. I got strict KPIs our whole team does. The CEO of America’s was off in Cabo hiking, traveling to NY in different time zones. Legal, HR, Audit, Credit, IT missed some key Jira and road map deadlines do to hard cut offs. We all finished in time. We all our getting 30 percent off our bonus. He got canned this week. Now we have no CEO and even more crap slipping. Hopefully we get a real CEO.

Tomorrow I have a 6:30 am meeting do to a schmuck in Europe. Same day a 7 pm meeting for a San Fran meeting. Executives traveling around. Senior people need to stay in time zone.

[Anonymous]

OP, if I am reading your posts correctly, you've been working awhile, not just since 2018, and your goal is to retire in 10 years? Then all the input about difficulty finding a job in a recession due to lots of job hops on a resume are irrelevant to your situation. In your case, I would take the jump in salary plus bonuses and equity and build your retirement as much as possible in the years you have left. Just in case you decide to work longer, you need to stay at the next one as long as you can before any more moves. But the financial benefit in preparation for your retirement, particularly if you continue to keep your expenses down and sock it away, is just too important to pass up.

Once you move to this next job, please remember that you are senior management and you are expected to to be flexible with whatever they need you to do. Hopefully with the equity share, you will be committed to take on whatever they need because doing so helps guarantee more profit coming your way. But in your comments I'm hearing you say that these companies don't meet your expectations when you haven't put in a lot of effort to meet theirs. And that would need to change with this next job, so choose wisely.

[Anonymous]

Ugh to the poster with the unlimited time off. We’ve had multiple jerks take 2-3 weeks and back up the rest of us because they are out of pocket. Meanwhile I get bothered at night / on weekends because we have such a great vacation / flexible work schedule. I’ve actually started looking because I’m sick of being the grownup with a work ethic in the room.