Anyone following the viral Harvard University *Extension School* controversy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean this whole thread is full of people who don't understand HES, its mission, FAS, or Harvard University.

1. There are undergraduate and graduate degrees offered at HES.
2. Until about 15 years ago, ALB and ALM degrees were offered only in-person.
3. There are two types of extension students: 1) those who are matriculated, and 2) those who are not. Matriculated students generally make up about 20% of extension learners. Only matriculated students earn degrees.
4. Of the non-matriculated students who have no desire to matriculate, many, if not most, are high achievers with impressive credentials. Places like Harvard and Yale are addictive, and some people (believe it or not) want to learn and interact with cerebral people even after their four years of study are up.
5. To matriculate, you need to pass a gatekeeper class. On average, only about 30% succeed in the gatekeeper course. This is because Harvard guards the grades in these classes to ensure it picks the students it wants to admit.
6. There is a lot of self-selection. On average, for many students, the work can take 10 to 15 hours per week per class. It is not uncommon to have to read 1,000 pages and be ready to be called upon to discuss during class. This is beyond the requirements of most state school undergraduate expectations.
7. GSAS, the college, and the extension school are all run by FAS, which regulates the programs and degrees. By and large, undergraduate credit is equivalent to the college, with the graduate credit being slightly more advanced but different from GSAS, which tends to have a mission to be deeper and not as 'broad' (or wide) in a field.
8. The reason extension credit is not accepted by the college is to stop ambitious college students from taking extension credit -- the syllabus/coursework is often the same; they just want to separate the non-traditional students from the college students.
9. On the same vein, the summer school DOES allow college students to enroll for credit and is functionally the same as the extension school but just in the summer. Thus, the aforementioned prohibition is not a lack of quality; it's a function of student management.
10. They offer cross-school courses where extension and college students are taking the same course. I have noticed no dip in quality between these courses and the ones offered only to extension students. This is also true with Kennedy and GSAS courses.
11. Matriculated students have IDs, join clubs, and I personally know a few who are just as 'Harvard' as anyone else here. They do research, work as TFs, write a thesis or research papers, and participate in University life.
12. It is true that the quality of the student body per class is somewhat less. But people who don't fit in are usually rejected before they matriculate or quickly realize they don't fit in.
13. For matriculated students, the resources and access to campus are equivalent. Harvard is transformational if you let it be. And while I acknowledge that someone could complete their degree while only stepping foot onto campus a handful of times -- why would you? Many extension students take the opportunity to learn from the best scholars, be around amazing students, and interact with CEOs, politicians, research, and startups.

Thus:
The work required to complete an extension degree at Harvard is rigorous and can be completed (mostly) online or in-person. It is generally considered academically equivalent to Harvard College in difficulty for each sister course, with the graduate work sometimes held to a higher standard. It is generally not as deep as a similar master's degree from GSAS, as those degrees tend to be much more narrow to the field (hence the 'Liberal Arts' in the degree name).

Overall, I find the association with the University of Phoenix, Trump University, and comparable allegations to be absurd and unreasonably prejudiced against non-traditional learners. The New Republic article was factually inaccurate, contained numerous errors, and was a hit piece designed to burn thousands of students' degrees in an effort to stick it to one man.

I don’t disagree with your logic and arguments but these count for very little. Perception-wise, nobody will ever think that a degree from Harvard extension is equivalent to one from Harvard College. We all know this.

Harvard College alums will never consider people who have gone to Harvard Extension as fellow alums.

You sure care a lot about perceptions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean this whole thread is full of people who don't understand HES, its mission, FAS, or Harvard University.

1. There are undergraduate and graduate degrees offered at HES.
2. Until about 15 years ago, ALB and ALM degrees were offered only in-person.
3. There are two types of extension students: 1) those who are matriculated, and 2) those who are not. Matriculated students generally make up about 20% of extension learners. Only matriculated students earn degrees.
4. Of the non-matriculated students who have no desire to matriculate, many, if not most, are high achievers with impressive credentials. Places like Harvard and Yale are addictive, and some people (believe it or not) want to learn and interact with cerebral people even after their four years of study are up.
5. To matriculate, you need to pass a gatekeeper class. On average, only about 30% succeed in the gatekeeper course. This is because Harvard guards the grades in these classes to ensure it picks the students it wants to admit.
6. There is a lot of self-selection. On average, for many students, the work can take 10 to 15 hours per week per class. It is not uncommon to have to read 1,000 pages and be ready to be called upon to discuss during class. This is beyond the requirements of most state school undergraduate expectations.
7. GSAS, the college, and the extension school are all run by FAS, which regulates the programs and degrees. By and large, undergraduate credit is equivalent to the college, with the graduate credit being slightly more advanced but different from GSAS, which tends to have a mission to be deeper and not as 'broad' (or wide) in a field.
8. The reason extension credit is not accepted by the college is to stop ambitious college students from taking extension credit -- the syllabus/coursework is often the same; they just want to separate the non-traditional students from the college students.
9. On the same vein, the summer school DOES allow college students to enroll for credit and is functionally the same as the extension school but just in the summer. Thus, the aforementioned prohibition is not a lack of quality; it's a function of student management.
10. They offer cross-school courses where extension and college students are taking the same course. I have noticed no dip in quality between these courses and the ones offered only to extension students. This is also true with Kennedy and GSAS courses.
11. Matriculated students have IDs, join clubs, and I personally know a few who are just as 'Harvard' as anyone else here. They do research, work as TFs, write a thesis or research papers, and participate in University life.
12. It is true that the quality of the student body per class is somewhat less. But people who don't fit in are usually rejected before they matriculate or quickly realize they don't fit in.
13. For matriculated students, the resources and access to campus are equivalent. Harvard is transformational if you let it be. And while I acknowledge that someone could complete their degree while only stepping foot onto campus a handful of times -- why would you? Many extension students take the opportunity to learn from the best scholars, be around amazing students, and interact with CEOs, politicians, research, and startups.

Thus:
The work required to complete an extension degree at Harvard is rigorous and can be completed (mostly) online or in-person. It is generally considered academically equivalent to Harvard College in difficulty for each sister course, with the graduate work sometimes held to a higher standard. It is generally not as deep as a similar master's degree from GSAS, as those degrees tend to be much more narrow to the field (hence the 'Liberal Arts' in the degree name).

Overall, I find the association with the University of Phoenix, Trump University, and comparable allegations to be absurd and unreasonably prejudiced against non-traditional learners. The New Republic article was factually inaccurate, contained numerous errors, and was a hit piece designed to burn thousands of students' degrees in an effort to stick it to one man.

I don’t disagree with your logic and arguments but these count for very little. Perception-wise, nobody will ever think that a degree from Harvard extension is equivalent to one from Harvard College. We all know this.

Harvard College alums will never consider people who have gone to Harvard Extension as fellow alums.

Really impressive job ignoring all the points in a long, thoughtful, clearly informed post and simply repeating your non-sequitur. That takes discipline.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So why is Harvard awarding a scam degree, if indeed it is such?

It’s NOT a degree, it is a certificate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wtf was Chris seeking out this bogus degree last year for? That is so weird and revealing. And he wasn’t low-key about it, as if he was just seeking knowledge. And he doesn’t have a corporate job where an advanced degree gets him a promotion. Then the weirdo IMMEDIATELY added it to all of his bios and began bragging about being a Harvard alum. It makes me question his entire crusade and frankly reveals him to be a weird dipsh*t. Has he ever had a real job? That’s another red flag. Guy seems to have some screws loose. Did he buy sweatshirts and quarter zips to wear too? Probably.

He is a Harvard alumni.

TBH, I have a professional grad degree from Harvard and consider myself an alum from the Harvard school granting the degree. Most folks I know make this distinction. Folks in the yard who earn an UG degree from Harvard are Harvard alum with no modifiers. And folks with a grad degree in extension studies are HES alum.

That is nice for you, but legally he is a Harvard alumni.


Perhaps he's a socially awkward Harvard alumni

He is an alum of HES, just like I am an alum of one of the professional programs. I can tell you that the only folks in my class who use Harvard only are posers.

Being a poser and being a Harvard alumni is kind of... Normal

Nah, not necessarily. But it's the folks like Rufo who help create that sense.

I live near Harvard and the regular students are the worst posers. No humility whatsoever

Yeah, I mean, who on earth could imagine 18-20 year olds acting like posers with no humility!! Shocking and unexpected!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So why is Harvard awarding a scam degree, if indeed it is such?

It’s NOT a degree, it is a certificate.

Do you even read the posts that preceded you before you post yours?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean this whole thread is full of people who don't understand HES, its mission, FAS, or Harvard University.

1. There are undergraduate and graduate degrees offered at HES.
2. Until about 15 years ago, ALB and ALM degrees were offered only in-person.
3. There are two types of extension students: 1) those who are matriculated, and 2) those who are not. Matriculated students generally make up about 20% of extension learners. Only matriculated students earn degrees.
4. Of the non-matriculated students who have no desire to matriculate, many, if not most, are high achievers with impressive credentials. Places like Harvard and Yale are addictive, and some people (believe it or not) want to learn and interact with cerebral people even after their four years of study are up.
5. To matriculate, you need to pass a gatekeeper class. On average, only about 30% succeed in the gatekeeper course. This is because Harvard guards the grades in these classes to ensure it picks the students it wants to admit.
6. There is a lot of self-selection. On average, for many students, the work can take 10 to 15 hours per week per class. It is not uncommon to have to read 1,000 pages and be ready to be called upon to discuss during class. This is beyond the requirements of most state school undergraduate expectations.
7. GSAS, the college, and the extension school are all run by FAS, which regulates the programs and degrees. By and large, undergraduate credit is equivalent to the college, with the graduate credit being slightly more advanced but different from GSAS, which tends to have a mission to be deeper and not as 'broad' (or wide) in a field.
8. The reason extension credit is not accepted by the college is to stop ambitious college students from taking extension credit -- the syllabus/coursework is often the same; they just want to separate the non-traditional students from the college students.
9. On the same vein, the summer school DOES allow college students to enroll for credit and is functionally the same as the extension school but just in the summer. Thus, the aforementioned prohibition is not a lack of quality; it's a function of student management.
10. They offer cross-school courses where extension and college students are taking the same course. I have noticed no dip in quality between these courses and the ones offered only to extension students. This is also true with Kennedy and GSAS courses.
11. Matriculated students have IDs, join clubs, and I personally know a few who are just as 'Harvard' as anyone else here. They do research, work as TFs, write a thesis or research papers, and participate in University life.
12. It is true that the quality of the student body per class is somewhat less. But people who don't fit in are usually rejected before they matriculate or quickly realize they don't fit in.
13. For matriculated students, the resources and access to campus are equivalent. Harvard is transformational if you let it be. And while I acknowledge that someone could complete their degree while only stepping foot onto campus a handful of times -- why would you? Many extension students take the opportunity to learn from the best scholars, be around amazing students, and interact with CEOs, politicians, research, and startups.

Thus:
The work required to complete an extension degree at Harvard is rigorous and can be completed (mostly) online or in-person. It is generally considered academically equivalent to Harvard College in difficulty for each sister course, with the graduate work sometimes held to a higher standard. It is generally not as deep as a similar master's degree from GSAS, as those degrees tend to be much more narrow to the field (hence the 'Liberal Arts' in the degree name).

Overall, I find the association with the University of Phoenix, Trump University, and comparable allegations to be absurd and unreasonably prejudiced against non-traditional learners. The New Republic article was factually inaccurate, contained numerous errors, and was a hit piece designed to burn thousands of students' degrees in an effort to stick it to one man.

I don’t disagree with your logic and arguments but these count for very little. Perception-wise, nobody will ever think that a degree from Harvard extension is equivalent to one from Harvard College. We all know this.

Harvard College alums will never consider people who have gone to Harvard Extension as fellow alums.

You sure care a lot about perceptions

+1

The Harvard grads aren’t busy thinking about this the way the desperate DCUM mommies are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am currently a Harvard Extension School student and I Must say, IT IS NOT EASY and not for everyone. The reason I chose this program, is because I liked Harvard’s case study method from a certificate I took at Harvard Business School Online.

As a full time professional, a father and with a busy life, it fits my schedule and I get the learning method that fits me. I agree on being honest clarifying the origin of your degree. Nothing wrong with disclosing your degree is from the Extension School. However, I do not agree with the common belief that Anyone can get it. It is very challenging and requires a lot of commitment, focus and time management.

It’s open enrollment so people assume it’s not as good as the day program but that’s not true. The difference between the Harvard open extension school and many others is that you can’t get into an actual degree program until you take the courses Harvard requires and you have to have certain grades in those classes.

So while people can sign up for some of the classes without a problem, being accepted to a degree program and completing it is very difficult. And impressive.

Are you talking about a degree program in the Yard? A professional program?

I’m talking about a degree program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard’s extension school website is perfectly clear on how to write the degree on your resume and CV. Always include Extension School or Extension Studies. You’re obviously purposely being deceptive when you strike Extension School from your resume, bio, and/or verbal communication. It’s shady and teases out you’re a liar with serious issues.

I would never pay for Harvard extension school. To me, it sounds like someone buying a degree to put Harvard on their resume. What’s the point?

That’s just your ignorance. The average age is in the 30s with adults working during the day and attending at night, not unlike many graduate programs in almost every college. Of all the people who take classes in the extension school only a very small minority are accepted into the degree program and graduate (under 10%).

The graduates are Harvard alumni and attend the same Commencement as all other graduates.

[Anonymous]

I know someone who did this exactly but with Princeton. Wears his Princeton colors everywhere 🙄

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean this whole thread is full of people who don't understand HES, its mission, FAS, or Harvard University.

1. There are undergraduate and graduate degrees offered at HES.
2. Until about 15 years ago, ALB and ALM degrees were offered only in-person.
3. There are two types of extension students: 1) those who are matriculated, and 2) those who are not. Matriculated students generally make up about 20% of extension learners. Only matriculated students earn degrees.
4. Of the non-matriculated students who have no desire to matriculate, many, if not most, are high achievers with impressive credentials. Places like Harvard and Yale are addictive, and some people (believe it or not) want to learn and interact with cerebral people even after their four years of study are up.
5. To matriculate, you need to pass a gatekeeper class. On average, only about 30% succeed in the gatekeeper course. This is because Harvard guards the grades in these classes to ensure it picks the students it wants to admit.
6. There is a lot of self-selection. On average, for many students, the work can take 10 to 15 hours per week per class. It is not uncommon to have to read 1,000 pages and be ready to be called upon to discuss during class. This is beyond the requirements of most state school undergraduate expectations.
7. GSAS, the college, and the extension school are all run by FAS, which regulates the programs and degrees. By and large, undergraduate credit is equivalent to the college, with the graduate credit being slightly more advanced but different from GSAS, which tends to have a mission to be deeper and not as 'broad' (or wide) in a field.
8. The reason extension credit is not accepted by the college is to stop ambitious college students from taking extension credit -- the syllabus/coursework is often the same; they just want to separate the non-traditional students from the college students.
9. On the same vein, the summer school DOES allow college students to enroll for credit and is functionally the same as the extension school but just in the summer. Thus, the aforementioned prohibition is not a lack of quality; it's a function of student management.
10. They offer cross-school courses where extension and college students are taking the same course. I have noticed no dip in quality between these courses and the ones offered only to extension students. This is also true with Kennedy and GSAS courses.
11. Matriculated students have IDs, join clubs, and I personally know a few who are just as 'Harvard' as anyone else here. They do research, work as TFs, write a thesis or research papers, and participate in University life.
12. It is true that the quality of the student body per class is somewhat less. But people who don't fit in are usually rejected before they matriculate or quickly realize they don't fit in.
13. For matriculated students, the resources and access to campus are equivalent. Harvard is transformational if you let it be. And while I acknowledge that someone could complete their degree while only stepping foot onto campus a handful of times -- why would you? Many extension students take the opportunity to learn from the best scholars, be around amazing students, and interact with CEOs, politicians, research, and startups.

Thus:
The work required to complete an extension degree at Harvard is rigorous and can be completed (mostly) online or in-person. It is generally considered academically equivalent to Harvard College in difficulty for each sister course, with the graduate work sometimes held to a higher standard. It is generally not as deep as a similar master's degree from GSAS, as those degrees tend to be much more narrow to the field (hence the 'Liberal Arts' in the degree name).

Overall, I find the association with the University of Phoenix, Trump University, and comparable allegations to be absurd and unreasonably prejudiced against non-traditional learners. The New Republic article was factually inaccurate, contained numerous errors, and was a hit piece designed to burn thousands of students' degrees in an effort to stick it to one man.

I don’t disagree with your logic and arguments but these count for very little. Perception-wise, nobody will ever think that a degree from Harvard extension is equivalent to one from Harvard College. We all know this.

Harvard College alums will never consider people who have gone to Harvard Extension as fellow alums.

I disagree. I think it depends. Take a course with someone side by side; show up to a few clubs; go on a few retreats together; sit together in university life/events and I think you have a chance to build a network. I agree it won't happen automatically, but if you're impressive, put in the time, and have something to contribute then people will notice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So why is Harvard awarding a scam degree, if indeed it is such?

It’s NOT a degree, it is a certificate.

They have degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminds me of a public servant I know who went to what appeared to be a 2 to 4 week Harvard summer course. Afterwards he began wearing Harvard sweatshirts and added Harvard to his social media accounts and LinkedIn. His Facebook avatar was changed to him in a Harvard sweatshirt. His bachelor’s degree was from an open enrollment regional degree mill.

Thats understandable, but completing an entire Master's degree from HEC gives you the right to be proud about it.

No. An online master's or doctorate degree from any university is a joke. These are cash cow degree mill programs with basically zero admissions standards and just pointless busywork to push you through. Everyone knows it.

I hate to break it to you, but Graduate Programs at even the very best schools are online for a large portion of the program - even in programs with labs. It's the wave of the future.

No, the worthless box checking programs for nitwits are all online. The high value programs with admissions standards are still on campus.

Hate to break it to you as well -- but HES offers on campus classes too. Like I said, every year there are a selection of classes that are cross offered with other schools as well (this means students of various schools are sitting side by side taking the same class). I agree there is value in in-person resources only available on campus, but this applies whether you're doing HES or HGSE -- online degree's lose a lot of the transformative experiences that can only happen out of the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know someone who did this exactly but with Princeton. Wears his Princeton colors everywhere 🙄

This is fine. But if all you have to show for yourself is where you went to school, that says something about you. On the other hand, if the school gives you opportunities and inspires you to do more and be more -- who gives a *** whether it's HES or Princeton. I think too many people on this forum don't know anything about Harvard, HES, and are *shocked* that the real Harvard doesn't live up to whatever their ill formed expectations are for the institution.

For example did you know both the Education and Div. school have a very high admit rate? You don't see the level of online vitriol mostly by people who never set foot on campus. Did you know Oxford, LSE, Columbia, Northwestern, and Brown all have extension programs too? Yet, you don't see the ridiculous "university of phoenix" accusations at them. Did you know many adcoms at top universities have gone on record that they consider an ALB with extension to be equivalent rigor (academically) with the college?

And yet, the bumbnuts who never had the privilege to piss on the statue; come on occasion, to the yard, and rub the foot and take pictures as if tourist in a foreign land. They are faced with the prospect that someone could participate what they consider to be unattainable and elite, it threatens them. Frankly, getting a Harvard degree is Hard. Yet, they condemn the alternative pathways, such as the Extension School, for the prospect of potential failure looms as a harbinger of their own intrinsic limitations, a threat far more insidious than any external barriers. For in the realm of their imagination, the specter of one's own inadequacies casts a longer shadow. Thus, they retreat into the comforting embrace of the external gatekeepers, mocking alternative paths, and seeking solace in the safety of being barred from entry into her hallowed halls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Technically speaking, a degree from the Harvard Extension School is a degree from Harvard University.

But just saying that you went to “Harvard” without clarifying that it was via their extension school is misleading.

It’s not the fact that it’s online. It’s that extension schools usually don’t have the same acceptance standards or curriculum.

So what? If you are an athlete recruit do you need to clarify that? Or that you checked a race box? Or that your parents made a large donation or you are a legacy? If you're so easily mislead that's on you.

Athletes don’t get degrees conferred from “Harvard Athletics.” Legacies don’t get degrees from “Harvard Legacy School.”

These are not comparable.

On the other hand, the extension school degree is apparently conferred by the “Harvard Extension School.” It may be a component college of “Harvard University,” but it’s not the same as getting a degree from one their traditional colleges.

1. There is only one college at Harvard.
2. It is conferred by FAS which also confers GSAS, and the college.
3. It is designed to help the poorer and working class of Boston and Cambridge to obtain a Harvard Degree. It was designed to have equivalent academic rigor.
4. It has evolved in scope and somewhat in mission, but as the crimson has reported on before, many of the classes are copied from the college or GSAS, and the education is closely monitored by FAS to ensure rigor.
5. There are even courses every year that are cross offered with other schools..

I really wish people would stop talking about things they know nothing about. Not every extension program is the same. Some have different standards or reasons for existing. The mission of HES to provide Harvard quality classes to the public and its matriculated students. It also weeds out students that would not make a good fit from its degree programs (around 70% are weeded out from the gatekeeper classes and by at least one calculation when you account for yield and over all scores the inverted 'admission rate' is closer to the 9-11% mark).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard’s extension school website is perfectly clear on how to write the degree on your resume and CV. Always include Extension School or Extension Studies. You’re obviously purposely being deceptive when you strike Extension School from your resume, bio, and/or verbal communication. It’s shady and teases out you’re a liar with serious issues.

I would never pay for Harvard extension school. To me, it sounds like someone buying a degree to put Harvard on their resume. What’s the point?

Maybe to learn? Some of the best professors at Harvard teach at Extension. Oh you're probably one of those saps that think the point of education is 'to get a good job'. Well in that case there is on campus recruiting too..