Initial boundary options for Woodward study area are up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

[Anonymous]

This is from the Montgomery County study:

The academic returns from economic integration diminished as school poverty levels rose. Children who lived in public housing and attended schools where no more than 20 percent of students qualified for a free or reduced price meal did best, whereas those children in public housing who attended schools where as many as 35 percent of students who qualified for a free or reduced price meal performed no better academically over time than public housing children who attended schools where 35 to 85 percent of students qualified for a free or reduced price meal. (Note that fewer than 5 percent of schools had more than 60 percent of students from low-income families, and none had more than 85 percent in any year, making it impossible to compare the effects of low-poverty schools with truly high-poverty schools, where 75 percent to 100 percent of the families are low-income).

https://tcf.org/content/report/housing-policy-school-policy-economically-integrative-housing-promotes-academic-success-montgomery-county-maryland/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

They're not entirely incorrect. Dividing FARMS kids into smaller cohorts is in part intended to regulate behavioral issues. The stickiest part of the challenge is identifying which FARMS kids will benefit from being in class with higher achieving peers, and then directing additional resources to them. The flipside is that some FARMS kids don't have the totality of the circumstances needed to academically excel, but there is no easy way to offramp them to more fitting fields.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

Ok then by these different percentages (higher than 20-30%) is there meaningful difference for the changes in option 3? Meaning if you get a school going from 60 to 50 is that going to improve outcomes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

Ok then by these different percentages (higher than 20-30%) is there meaningful difference for the changes in option 3? Meaning if you get a school going from 60 to 50 is that going to improve outcomes?

Answering my own question. Looking at option 3 it does look like it takes any school from (say) 60 to 40.

Kennedy goes from 55 to 46
Northwood goes from 50 to 44
Wheaton goes from 62 to 56
Blair goes from 51 to 45
BCC stays the same

The point being that lowering FARMS rates at higher FARMS schools doesn’t appear to be accomplished in Option 3.

And that’s not accounting for the fact that the predictions will be wrong when there are big changes involved where people change (go private, move).

[Anonymous]

*does NOT look

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

Ok then by these different percentages (higher than 20-30%) is there meaningful difference for the changes in option 3? Meaning if you get a school going from 60 to 50 is that going to improve outcomes?

I have no idea. I'm not impressed by Option 3 frankly and don't think it's worth it. I doubt the BOE would go for it either but who knows. I want Option 1 but modified so Wheaton doesn't end up overcrowded.

But I also don't agree with the argument that it is 20-30% FARMS or bust, and that's the claim by post above was responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

Ok then by these different percentages (higher than 20-30%) is there meaningful difference for the changes in option 3? Meaning if you get a school going from 60 to 50 is that going to improve outcomes?

I have no idea. I'm not impressed by Option 3 frankly and don't think it's worth it. I doubt the BOE would go for it either but who knows. I want Option 1 but modified so Wheaton doesn't end up overcrowded.

But I also don't agree with the argument that it is 20-30% FARMS or bust, and that's the claim by post above was responding to.

I agree that Option 3 seems woefully misguided even from an “improving demographics” standpoint. And I can’t imagine it is cost neutral given the numerous islands and the busing that would need to occur.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:would Farmland prefer Woodward or Kennedy (Option 3)?

Farmland prefers Woodward rather than busing all the kids 45 minutes to Kennedy. Tilden schools (Farmland, Garrett Park, Luxmanor) provide most of the FARMS/diversity that WJ currently has. Moving all of those schools out of WJ, without moving DCC schools in, makes WJ into Whitman 2.0.

In addition to FARMS families, you also have a lot of regular middle class families with kids at Farmland whose parents work at NIH or the Naval Hospital living over in congressional and across Rockville pike. Often with only one car (or no car) and they have to walk or take public transportation.

Busing all the FARMS families plus transit challenged families from Farmland to Kennedy, when they can walk to Woodward (even easier to get to) is a terrible idea and honestly just mean. And same thing for families near Kennedy being bused to Woodward.

This is why option 3 doesn’t really move the needle on FARMS at Kennedy.

None of the options really move the FARMS needles. The only outlier is option 3 bussing kids to Whitman, and Whitman goes from like 6% to 20%. But everywhere else in option 3 doesn’t seem to do a whole lot (considering that the “magic” FARMS rate is 20-30%; once you get above that it apparently makes no difference for educational outcomes).

This is far from certain. One of the studies found that below 35% improved math outcomes.

Research is not perfect. Regression analyses can never account for all confounding variables and you can't do an experiment on this. Significant variation exists between schools, teachers and student bodies even with the same poverty rates.

It could be interesting to look at MCPS climate survey results at schools with different poverty rates. Of course those surveys are far from perfect but I have found that the staff survey results generally matched up with what I heard from staff with experience at the specific schools.

The equalizing of FARMS rates seems to not have very good support in terms of helping educational outcomes. If that’s accurate why go through the expense and trouble of doing so? Is it to manage behavioral issues?

Incorrect. There is a lot of research including a very good study involving Montgomery County specifically. My grad professor in another state taught that study as an example of good research.

The issue is that this type of research is not going to be very exact in terms of a "tipping point" and my guess is that, for example 40% is likely substantially better for kids than 60%.

Ok then by these different percentages (higher than 20-30%) is there meaningful difference for the changes in option 3? Meaning if you get a school going from 60 to 50 is that going to improve outcomes?

I have no idea. I'm not impressed by Option 3 frankly and don't think it's worth it. I doubt the BOE would go for it either but who knows. I want Option 1 but modified so Wheaton doesn't end up overcrowded.

But I also don't agree with the argument that it is 20-30% FARMS or bust, and that's the claim by post above was responding to.

I agree that Option 3 seems woefully misguided even from an “improving demographics” standpoint. And I can’t imagine it is cost neutral given the numerous islands and the busing that would need to occur.

I think the consultant was just asked to prepare an option that reduces demographic disparities between schools, and this option does that. Just not by much. It shows what is possible within reason (a 6 mile bus ride may not be ideal but it could certainly be worse). And unfortunately, what is possible is not something that would do much to reduce FARMS rates in DCC schools.

[Anonymous]

Allowing students to switch schools within regions for various programs (if seats are actually available) will also change the FARmS rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Allowing students to switch schools within regions for various programs (if seats are actually available) will also change the FARmS rates.

I would support a lottery into underenrolled schools for FARMS kids. The question is busing, but apparently there are already 75 bus rides for DCC kids so maybe that is not really an issue.

[Anonymous]

*75 MINUTE bus rides

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:*75 MINUTE bus rides

Of course you dgaf about putting low income kids on long bus rides. No skin off your back.