Who has changed their minds about religion on this forum?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Bart Ehrman (A scholar who followed the evangelical->mainline->no religion pipeline) says that remembering the Greek root words is helpful.
theos=God / atheos=> without God / atheism =>without God [belief]
gnosis=knowledge / agnosti=>without knowledge / agnosisticism=>without knowledge [don't or can't know]

He says the distinction is helpful and important and that he is both an atheist and an agnostic. He doesn't believe in God and he doesn't have concrete knowledge of God's existence or nonexistence.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

The fact of the matter is that "agnostic" sounds softer than "atheist" and thus is easier to call yourself publicly. People often feel sorry for agnostics - assuming they are trying to believe, or want to believe, while the term atheist seems harsher.

How do I know? Just a guess. I've noticed that people are put off by atheists. Agnostics get pity and atheists get anger. I don't like either reaction.

DP -
I don’t think that is the reason from my experience with agnostics. It seems to be that for some people, intellectual honesty is better expressed through agnosticism - metaphysical beliefs cannot be proven or disproven through science. Certitude is foolish without evidence.

Very little in life is black and white. There are always different viewing lenses for understanding reality. Agnosticism more fully allows for lack of certitude in which to explore different aspects of reality.

I don’t feel pity for agnostics or atheists - everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Yet I wager that all the believers here would say with certitude and intellectual honesty that they do not believe in fairies and goblins, who are supernatural beings, like God in the sense that you can't see them. Also, some people (adults, in the case of fairies and goblins) don't believe in them. Thus, agnosticism is not good if it, as pp suggests, allows for exploring "different aspects of reality".

Not sure I follow your reasoning but agree that most religious people are unlikely to also believe in leprechauns/ fairies/ goblins etc.

Examples of Areas where I thought agnostics may be open to alternative metaphysical explanations are:
- seemingly Miraculous recoveries (many medical doctors and nurses have experienced inexplicable recoveries of patients with extremely poor prognoses following their families or faith communities praying for them).
- near death experiences where people who do technically die physically for some period of time. They often report similar experiences of observing their bodies from somewhere else and realizing they are dead. Many describe a deep peace and deep desire to not return to their physical bodies. They often describe being informed that it is not their time to leave their embodied human lives yet)
- past life memories usually by children who remember details Of lives from historical periods where they could not have possibly
Known about.

I don’t know but that is my impression - not knowing opening up different possibilities.

Interestingly, Buddhists often recommend a mental state of not knowing as being essential to developing mindfulness. My art teacher recommends it for creating meaningful art.

This is just an effect of the lack of oxygen on the brain. If souls existed and were even temporarily "outside" of the body, they wouldn't just hover in place. They would go zooming off at over 60,000 mph as the earth continued in its orbit around the sun as souls would no longer be bound to the physical laws of the universe.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

The fact of the matter is that "agnostic" sounds softer than "atheist" and thus is easier to call yourself publicly. People often feel sorry for agnostics - assuming they are trying to believe, or want to believe, while the term atheist seems harsher.

How do I know? Just a guess. I've noticed that people are put off by atheists. Agnostics get pity and atheists get anger. I don't like either reaction.

DP -
I don’t think that is the reason from my experience with agnostics. It seems to be that for some people, intellectual honesty is better expressed through agnosticism - metaphysical beliefs cannot be proven or disproven through science. Certitude is foolish without evidence.

Very little in life is black and white. There are always different viewing lenses for understanding reality. Agnosticism more fully allows for lack of certitude in which to explore different aspects of reality.

I don’t feel pity for agnostics or atheists - everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Yet I wager that all the believers here would say with certitude and intellectual honesty that they do not believe in fairies and goblins, who are supernatural beings, like God in the sense that you can't see them. Also, some people (adults, in the case of fairies and goblins) don't believe in them. Thus, agnosticism is not good if it, as pp suggests, allows for exploring "different aspects of reality".

Not sure I follow your reasoning but agree that most religious people are unlikely to also believe in leprechauns/ fairies/ goblins etc.

Examples of Areas where I thought agnostics may be open to alternative metaphysical explanations are:
- seemingly Miraculous recoveries (many medical doctors and nurses have experienced inexplicable recoveries of patients with extremely poor prognoses following their families or faith communities praying for them).
- near death experiences where people who do technically die physically for some period of time. They often report similar experiences of observing their bodies from somewhere else and realizing they are dead. Many describe a deep peace and deep desire to not return to their physical bodies. They often describe being informed that it is not their time to leave their embodied human lives yet)
- past life memories usually by children who remember details Of lives from historical periods where they could not have possibly
Known about.

I don’t know but that is my impression - not knowing opening up different possibilities.

Interestingly, Buddhists often recommend a mental state of not knowing as being essential to developing mindfulness. My art teacher recommends it for creating meaningful art.

This is just an effect of the lack of oxygen on the brain. If souls existed and were even temporarily "outside" of the body, they wouldn't just hover in place. They would go zooming off at over 60,000 mph as the earth continued in its orbit around the sun as souls would no longer be bound to the physical laws of the universe.

LOL. So by your reckoning, a soul has no mass and is therefore not affected by gravity. But it is affected by the other physical laws of motion? Pick a lane.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

The fact of the matter is that "agnostic" sounds softer than "atheist" and thus is easier to call yourself publicly. People often feel sorry for agnostics - assuming they are trying to believe, or want to believe, while the term atheist seems harsher.

How do I know? Just a guess. I've noticed that people are put off by atheists. Agnostics get pity and atheists get anger. I don't like either reaction.

DP -
I don’t think that is the reason from my experience with agnostics. It seems to be that for some people, intellectual honesty is better expressed through agnosticism - metaphysical beliefs cannot be proven or disproven through science. Certitude is foolish without evidence.

Very little in life is black and white. There are always different viewing lenses for understanding reality. Agnosticism more fully allows for lack of certitude in which to explore different aspects of reality.

I don’t feel pity for agnostics or atheists - everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Yet I wager that all the believers here would say with certitude and intellectual honesty that they do not believe in fairies and goblins, who are supernatural beings, like God in the sense that you can't see them. Also, some people (adults, in the case of fairies and goblins) don't believe in them. Thus, agnosticism is not good if it, as pp suggests, allows for exploring "different aspects of reality".

Not sure I follow your reasoning but agree that most religious people are unlikely to also believe in leprechauns/ fairies/ goblins etc.

Examples of Areas where I thought agnostics may be open to alternative metaphysical explanations are:
- seemingly Miraculous recoveries (many medical doctors and nurses have experienced inexplicable recoveries of patients with extremely poor prognoses following their families or faith communities praying for them).
- near death experiences where people who do technically die physically for some period of time. They often report similar experiences of observing their bodies from somewhere else and realizing they are dead. Many describe a deep peace and deep desire to not return to their physical bodies. They often describe being informed that it is not their time to leave their embodied human lives yet)
- past life memories usually by children who remember details Of lives from historical periods where they could not have possibly
Known about.

I don’t know but that is my impression - not knowing opening up different possibilities.

Interestingly, Buddhists often recommend a mental state of not knowing as being essential to developing mindfulness. My art teacher recommends it for creating meaningful art.

This is just an effect of the lack of oxygen on the brain. If souls existed and were even temporarily "outside" of the body, they wouldn't just hover in place. They would go zooming off at over 60,000 mph as the earth continued in its orbit around the sun as souls would no longer be bound to the physical laws of the universe.

University of actions med school among other reputable medical researchers are studying the phenomena using controlled studies.


https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/near-death-experiences-ndes/
Near-death experiences (NDEs) are intensely vivid and often life-transforming experiences, many of which occur under extreme physiological conditions such as trauma, ceasing of brain activity, deep general anesthesia or cardiac arrest in which no awareness or sensory experiences should be possible according to the prevailing views in neuroscience.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

The fact of the matter is that "agnostic" sounds softer than "atheist" and thus is easier to call yourself publicly. People often feel sorry for agnostics - assuming they are trying to believe, or want to believe, while the term atheist seems harsher.

How do I know? Just a guess. I've noticed that people are put off by atheists. Agnostics get pity and atheists get anger. I don't like either reaction.

DP -
I don’t think that is the reason from my experience with agnostics. It seems to be that for some people, intellectual honesty is better expressed through agnosticism - metaphysical beliefs cannot be proven or disproven through science. Certitude is foolish without evidence.

Very little in life is black and white. There are always different viewing lenses for understanding reality. Agnosticism more fully allows for lack of certitude in which to explore different aspects of reality.

I don’t feel pity for agnostics or atheists - everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Yet I wager that all the believers here would say with certitude and intellectual honesty that they do not believe in fairies and goblins, who are supernatural beings, like God in the sense that you can't see them. Also, some people (adults, in the case of fairies and goblins) don't believe in them. Thus, agnosticism is not good if it, as pp suggests, allows for exploring "different aspects of reality".

Not sure I follow your reasoning but agree that most religious people are unlikely to also believe in leprechauns/ fairies/ goblins etc.

Examples of Areas where I thought agnostics may be open to alternative metaphysical explanations are:
- seemingly Miraculous recoveries (many medical doctors and nurses have experienced inexplicable recoveries of patients with extremely poor prognoses following their families or faith communities praying for them).
- near death experiences where people who do technically die physically for some period of time. They often report similar experiences of observing their bodies from somewhere else and realizing they are dead. Many describe a deep peace and deep desire to not return to their physical bodies. They often describe being informed that it is not their time to leave their embodied human lives yet)
- past life memories usually by children who remember details Of lives from historical periods where they could not have possibly
Known about.

I don’t know but that is my impression - not knowing opening up different possibilities.

Interestingly, Buddhists often recommend a mental state of not knowing as being essential to developing mindfulness. My art teacher recommends it for creating meaningful art.

Many people also claim to have been anally probed by aliens or that certain politicians drink children’s blood. Do you believe every wacko that tells a story?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

Would you be able to say this sh*t with a straight face to a kid in gaza whose whole city was levelled? What kind of love and mercy is that? Or are they not included bc of their complexion?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

The fact of the matter is that "agnostic" sounds softer than "atheist" and thus is easier to call yourself publicly. People often feel sorry for agnostics - assuming they are trying to believe, or want to believe, while the term atheist seems harsher.

How do I know? Just a guess. I've noticed that people are put off by atheists. Agnostics get pity and atheists get anger. I don't like either reaction.

DP -
I don’t think that is the reason from my experience with agnostics. It seems to be that for some people, intellectual honesty is better expressed through agnosticism - metaphysical beliefs cannot be proven or disproven through science. Certitude is foolish without evidence.

Very little in life is black and white. There are always different viewing lenses for understanding reality. Agnosticism more fully allows for lack of certitude in which to explore different aspects of reality.

I don’t feel pity for agnostics or atheists - everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Yet I wager that all the believers here would say with certitude and intellectual honesty that they do not believe in fairies and goblins, who are supernatural beings, like God in the sense that you can't see them. Also, some people (adults, in the case of fairies and goblins) don't believe in them. Thus, agnosticism is not good if it, as pp suggests, allows for exploring "different aspects of reality".

Not sure I follow your reasoning but agree that most religious people are unlikely to also believe in leprechauns/ fairies/ goblins etc.

Examples of Areas where I thought agnostics may be open to alternative metaphysical explanations are:
- seemingly Miraculous recoveries (many medical doctors and nurses have experienced inexplicable recoveries of patients with extremely poor prognoses following their families or faith communities praying for them).
- near death experiences where people who do technically die physically for some period of time. They often report similar experiences of observing their bodies from somewhere else and realizing they are dead. Many describe a deep peace and deep desire to not return to their physical bodies. They often describe being informed that it is not their time to leave their embodied human lives yet)
- past life memories usually by children who remember details Of lives from historical periods where they could not have possibly
Known about.

I don’t know but that is my impression - not knowing opening up different possibilities.

Interestingly, Buddhists often recommend a mental state of not knowing as being essential to developing mindfulness. My art teacher recommends it for creating meaningful art.

This is just an effect of the lack of oxygen on the brain. If souls existed and were even temporarily "outside" of the body, they wouldn't just hover in place. They would go zooming off at over 60,000 mph as the earth continued in its orbit around the sun as souls would no longer be bound to the physical laws of the universe.

University of actions med school among other reputable medical researchers are studying the phenomena using controlled studies.


https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/near-death-experiences-ndes/
Near-death experiences (NDEs) are intensely vivid and often life-transforming experiences, many of which occur under extreme physiological conditions such as trauma, ceasing of brain activity, deep general anesthesia or cardiac arrest in which no awareness or sensory experiences should be possible according to the prevailing views in neuroscience.

I think people who dose LSD say the same thing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality.

It is certainly true that I share many of the same problems as both believers and non believers have because we are all human.

You are entitled to your opinion but my experience is that holding religious views that we are all deserving of compassion (including myself) does not appear to have harmed my ability to deal with observable reality. Various people have said that they like having me around in emergencies as I stay level-headed and prioritize. We have lived through two coup d’etats and we managed well.

Further, I follow science for navigating observable reality. Believing in compassion as a religious value has also helped to form many authentic friendships.

I don’t expect others to believe as I do especially if their lived reality has been harsh. However, this is what feels true to me. I don’t even think that one needs to be religious to hold this value. However all major religions (including indigenous) have some version of the Golden Rule suggesting that compassion and empathy is a transcendent moral value.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality.

And you seem to have the same problem that many other atheists have, which is that you ignore acknowledge progressive/open religious theology, because they're not the loud fundamentalists you see on TV.

I'm agnostic. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran (which is super conservative; women can't be clergy; lots of focus on sin; they only pray with other Missouri Synod Lutherans because everyone else is doing it wrong; etc) and for a long time I was angry about all religion. Understandably, I think. But then I grew up and saw that even within Lutheranism, there are more open, accepting denominations (ELCA Lutherans). I'm not going to go out and join an ELCA Lutheran church or start identifying as Christian again, but I recognize that my childhood experience is not representative of all Christian belief and certainly not of all religious belief generally. I don't like when people make assumptions about my beliefs as an agnostic, so of course religious people (especially religious people like PP whose beliefs are so different from the stereotype of a Christian) wouldn't like it either, and I'd rather just take those people at their word about their beliefs than argue with them about other Christians.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality.

And you seem to have the same problem that many other atheists have, which is that you ignore acknowledge progressive/open religious theology, because they're not the loud fundamentalists you see on TV.

I'm agnostic. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran (which is super conservative; women can't be clergy; lots of focus on sin; they only pray with other Missouri Synod Lutherans because everyone else is doing it wrong; etc) and for a long time I was angry about all religion. Understandably, I think. But then I grew up and saw that even within Lutheranism, there are more open, accepting denominations (ELCA Lutherans). I'm not going to go out and join an ELCA Lutheran church or start identifying as Christian again, but I recognize that my childhood experience is not representative of all Christian belief and certainly not of all religious belief generally. I don't like when people make assumptions about my beliefs as an agnostic, so of course religious people (especially religious people like PP whose beliefs are so different from the stereotype of a Christian) wouldn't like it either, and I'd rather just take those people at their word about their beliefs than argue with them about other Christians.

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

The fact of the matter is that "agnostic" sounds softer than "atheist" and thus is easier to call yourself publicly. People often feel sorry for agnostics - assuming they are trying to believe, or want to believe, while the term atheist seems harsher.

How do I know? Just a guess. I've noticed that people are put off by atheists. Agnostics get pity and atheists get anger. I don't like either reaction.

DP -
I don’t think that is the reason from my experience with agnostics. It seems to be that for some people, intellectual honesty is better expressed through agnosticism - metaphysical beliefs cannot be proven or disproven through science. Certitude is foolish without evidence.

Very little in life is black and white. There are always different viewing lenses for understanding reality. Agnosticism more fully allows for lack of certitude in which to explore different aspects of reality.

I don’t feel pity for agnostics or atheists - everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

Yet I wager that all the believers here would say with certitude and intellectual honesty that they do not believe in fairies and goblins, who are supernatural beings, like God in the sense that you can't see them. Also, some people (adults, in the case of fairies and goblins) don't believe in them. Thus, agnosticism is not good if it, as pp suggests, allows for exploring "different aspects of reality".

Not sure I follow your reasoning but agree that most religious people are unlikely to also believe in leprechauns/ fairies/ goblins etc.

Examples of Areas where I thought agnostics may be open to alternative metaphysical explanations are:
- seemingly Miraculous recoveries (many medical doctors and nurses have experienced inexplicable recoveries of patients with extremely poor prognoses following their families or faith communities praying for them).
- near death experiences where people who do technically die physically for some period of time. They often report similar experiences of observing their bodies from somewhere else and realizing they are dead. Many describe a deep peace and deep desire to not return to their physical bodies. They often describe being informed that it is not their time to leave their embodied human lives yet)
- past life memories usually by children who remember details Of lives from historical periods where they could not have possibly
Known about.

I don’t know but that is my impression - not knowing opening up different possibilities.

Interestingly, Buddhists often recommend a mental state of not knowing as being essential to developing mindfulness. My art teacher recommends it for creating meaningful art.

This is just an effect of the lack of oxygen on the brain. If souls existed and were even temporarily "outside" of the body, they wouldn't just hover in place. They would go zooming off at over 60,000 mph as the earth continued in its orbit around the sun as souls would no longer be bound to the physical laws of the universe.

LOL. So by your reckoning, a soul has no mass and is therefore not affected by gravity. But it is affected by the other physical laws of motion? Pick a lane.

I understand complex thought may be difficult for some. The soul inside a body is affected by the laws of physics, the moment it leaves the body, it is no longer bound. Therefore, the physical body would continue on while the soul would be left behind at a little over 60,000 mph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality.

And you seem to have the same problem that many other atheists have, which is that you ignore acknowledge progressive/open religious theology, because they're not the loud fundamentalists you see on TV.

I'm agnostic. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran (which is super conservative; women can't be clergy; lots of focus on sin; they only pray with other Missouri Synod Lutherans because everyone else is doing it wrong; etc) and for a long time I was angry about all religion. Understandably, I think. But then I grew up and saw that even within Lutheranism, there are more open, accepting denominations (ELCA Lutherans). I'm not going to go out and join an ELCA Lutheran church or start identifying as Christian again, but I recognize that my childhood experience is not representative of all Christian belief and certainly not of all religious belief generally. I don't like when people make assumptions about my beliefs as an agnostic, so of course religious people (especially religious people like PP whose beliefs are so different from the stereotype of a Christian) wouldn't like it either, and I'd rather just take those people at their word about their beliefs than argue with them about other Christians.

Thank you!

I'm the PP. I'm not ignoring open religious theology. I'm pointing out that your "open" thinking goes against the organized religion since they have their own set of rules that believers are supposed to follow. When you have to make up your rules to fit your views, why adhere to any belief system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Bart Ehrman (A scholar who followed the evangelical->mainline->no religion pipeline) says that remembering the Greek root words is helpful.
theos=God / atheos=> without God / atheism =>without God [belief]
gnosis=knowledge / agnosti=>without knowledge / agnosisticism=>without knowledge [don't or can't know]

He says the distinction is helpful and important and that he is both an atheist and an agnostic. He doesn't believe in God and he doesn't have concrete knowledge of God's existence or nonexistence.

The thing is that Nobody has such knowledge - "concrete knowledge of God's existence or nonexistence." But still, people will say that they KNOW that God exists. I would have said that at some stage of my life. I think that I thought I knew because it was easy to think that way, because everybody else was the same way -- or at least as far as I knew they were. No one spoke out about not believing, even if maybe they didn't believe. Plus I wanted to think that way. I wanted to believe.

Maybe this is very common among humans. It was very comforting to think that I would live forever. It didn't occur to me that according to the rules of my religion, I was bound for hell. No I was a nice person -- so I'd go where good, nice people went after they died -- to heaven, to live forever.

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Anonymous wrote:Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?

Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks.

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales.

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire.

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?

PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.

Athiests are not people who are certain that there is no God. They are people who do not believe in God. They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus. Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.

What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?

Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist:
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No.

Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but they are all supernatural. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God). Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa. They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God. They take God very seriously.

Right. They are all figments of their imagination.

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." It's priceless.

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.

That short video about god https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong. it's so right. Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you." That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message: "Be good or burn in hell forever!"

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1. There is no gender in the spirit
2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
3. God shows love and mercy to all.
4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality.

And you seem to have the same problem that many other atheists have, which is that you ignore acknowledge progressive/open religious theology, because they're not the loud fundamentalists you see on TV.

I'm agnostic. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran (which is super conservative; women can't be clergy; lots of focus on sin; they only pray with other Missouri Synod Lutherans because everyone else is doing it wrong; etc) and for a long time I was angry about all religion. Understandably, I think. But then I grew up and saw that even within Lutheranism, there are more open, accepting denominations (ELCA Lutherans). I'm not going to go out and join an ELCA Lutheran church or start identifying as Christian again, but I recognize that my childhood experience is not representative of all Christian belief and certainly not of all religious belief generally. I don't like when people make assumptions about my beliefs as an agnostic, so of course religious people (especially religious people like PP whose beliefs are so different from the stereotype of a Christian) wouldn't like it either, and I'd rather just take those people at their word about their beliefs than argue with them about other Christians.

Thank you!

Please -- not all atheists are so affected by fundamentalist Christians. It's just ridiculous to believe that there is a God that will let you live forever, as long as you're good while you're alive.