How often do you think applicants lie about their race?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It definitely happens. Back when I was applying to college in the early 2000s I had a good friend who had a set of grandparents who immigrated to Argentina from Europe during WWII and then moved to the US about 15 years later. My friend claimed on her college applications that she was Latino even though she knew her grandparents stint in Argentina hardly made her Latino. I think it may happen more with people who feel some tangential claim to a different race/ethnicity, like my friend. Look at Hilaria Baldwin. She speaks with a Spanish accent and she grew up in Boston and was educated at private schools in Massachusetts, all of her children have Spanish names, she pretended on television to forget the word cucumber and then said "how you say?" I mean... It's absurd, but it happens.

Report them anonymously to admissions. Done and done.

Admissions won't follow up with absuridities, but they will follow up with certain things.

[Anonymous]

I know African Americans who will not go to an African American doctor for this reason.

No you don't - that's total BS. In fact, it may be just the opposite. For example, Serena Williams really highlighted the struggles women of color face getting the care they need. https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/11/16879984/serena-williams-childbirth-scare-black-women

[Anonymous]

Example of those who lie…
https://www.instagram.com/reel/ClMVLuGJuF-/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thankfully, this will be the last admissions season where this silly game is still legal.

URMs welcome this! Can’t wait to see for the reactions when the admission outcomes don’t look any different!

If you want to see what a race-blind top school would look like, take a look at Caltech's demographics

Caltech is the future.

AA is the racist stupid past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I know African Americans who will not go to an African American doctor for this reason.

No you don't - that's total BS. In fact, it may be just the opposite. For example, Serena Williams really highlighted the struggles women of color face getting the care they need. https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/1/11/16879984/serena-williams-childbirth-scare-black-women

Serena the bully, the one who makes other women of color cry?

Maybe take her word with a grain of salt.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.

Jews are 20-25% of Harvard but 2% of the population

So let’s not get into the “over representation” sweepstakes as a cudgel against Asians

10% of Harvard's undergraduate population is Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I knew a lot of people personally who did. One kid of white South Africans said AA. One half Moroccan kid said AA. Lots of kids who had something like 1/8 heritage in Spain or Portugal said Hispanic.

The Moroccan kid and South African kid ARE African-American. They are not, however, black. If the school wanted to know if they were black, they should have asked that. And the 1/8 heritage kid from Spain IS Hispanic. If the school wanted to know if their ancestry is from Latin America, they should ask that. The person with Portuguese heritage should not be checking off Hispanic as people from Portugal speak Portuguese not Spanish, and are, therefore, not Hispanic.

You are WRONG. The U.S. has an official definition for African-American (as it does for other races, and ethnicities).
Your approach of "technically correct" is false. It is not up to people to make up their own definitions of African-American.

It is like if someone who originated from India and is 1st generation American said they were "American Indian".

Most North Africans do not see themselves as white:
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/17/1079181478/us-census-middle-eastern-white-north-african-mena

[Anonymous]

Johns Hopkins is only 19% white (under-represented); 19% Hispanic; 15% Black; 29% Asian…

Curious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Johns Hopkins is only 19% white (under-represented); 19% Hispanic; 15% Black; 29% Asian…

Curious.

I worked at JHU and there is no way the Black population of undergrads is 15%. Your numbers are off according to several sources, including JHU's CDS: https://oir.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/CDS_2021-2022.pdf

White 24%
Black 8%
Asian 27%
Hispanic 18%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy?

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century. We don't need racism in the academic fields.

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it doesn't even matter if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.

Jews are 20-25% of Harvard but 2% of the population

So let’s not get into the “over representation” sweepstakes as a cudgel against Asians

10% of Harvard's undergraduate population is Jewish.

Source? I've seen higher numbers.

Even at 10% that's a massive overrepresentation don't you think?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Johns Hopkins is only 19% white (under-represented); 19% Hispanic; 15% Black; 29% Asian…

Curious.

No wonder they have been going up in the rankings..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Johns Hopkins is only 19% white (under-represented); 19% Hispanic; 15% Black; 29% Asian…

Curious.

I worked at JHU and there is no way the Black population of undergrads is 15%. Your numbers are off according to several sources, including JHU's CDS: https://oir.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/CDS_2021-2022.pdf

White 24%
Black 8%
Asian 27%
Hispanic 18%

I could give you the flier my kid received on his tour. It’s the numbers they have in their current pamphlet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Johns Hopkins is only 19% white (under-represented); 19% Hispanic; 15% Black; 29% Asian…

Curious.

I worked at JHU and there is no way the Black population of undergrads is 15%. Your numbers are off according to several sources, including JHU's CDS: https://oir.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/CDS_2021-2022.pdf

White 24%
Black 8%
Asian 27%
Hispanic 18%

I could give you the flier my kid received on his tour. It’s the numbers they have in their current pamphlet.

My daughter did a tour too. This is true:

STUDENT EXPERIENCE
AT HOPKINS, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE WHO SHARE SIMILAR VALUES AND INTERESTS, AND MEET PEOPLE WITH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON THE WORLD. Discussions spill out of classrooms, and novel ideas often find their spark on the way to grab lunch.
Students represent 50 states & 80 countries
15% African American/Black
2% Native American/Pacific Islander
29% Asian American
19% Hispanic/Latinx
1% Unknown
19% White/Caucasian
15% International

[Anonymous]

^^ caucasians are 65% of the US population and only 19% at Hopkins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Johns Hopkins is only 19% white (under-represented); 19% Hispanic; 15% Black; 29% Asian…

Curious.

I worked at JHU and there is no way the Black population of undergrads is 15%. Your numbers are off according to several sources, including JHU's CDS: https://oir.jhu.edu/wp-content/uploads/CDS_2021-2022.pdf

White 24%
Black 8%
Asian 27%
Hispanic 18%

I could give you the flier my kid received on his tour. It’s the numbers they have in their current pamphlet.

My daughter did a tour too. This is true:

STUDENT EXPERIENCE
AT HOPKINS, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE WHO SHARE SIMILAR VALUES AND INTERESTS, AND MEET PEOPLE WITH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON THE WORLD. Discussions spill out of classrooms, and novel ideas often find their spark on the way to grab lunch.
Students represent 50 states & 80 countries
15% African American/Black
2% Native American/Pacific Islander
29% Asian American
19% Hispanic/Latinx
1% Unknown
19% White/Caucasian
15% International

That’s interesting. I think they are lying/ stretching the truth on the tour because the numbers JHU files with the government and publish on the CDS don’t match. Maybe they are include grad students to increase the diversity numbers?