Solidly middle-class people, please come in!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I make 110K however the median household income in my area is 137K and cost of living is very high. As a single individual I was doing ok (able to max my retirement savings) and took home 57K last year (after deductions and taxes). Not much room for extras and I do drive a 20y.o. car but still felt comfortable. However as an expectant parent, it's actually not enough to be able to afford my rent (2650 for a 500 sqft apartment), infant daycare 2400-3000/month (not sure where I will get in off the waiting list and still looking for lower cost options), extra cost of health insurance for my child (an extra $472/month) plus pay for student loans, disability insurance, car insurance, food, etc without drastically reducing retirement savings. I'm looking at jobs in lower cost of living areas of the country. So even though my income places me in the top 20th percentile for national individual income (although only 70 percentile for household income), I guess I am middle class. Feeling a bit discouraged since I obvious can't really afford to have a kid in the area I currently l live, but I am determined to make it work somehow since it seems ridiculous to make so much more than the average person in this country and families with much lower income than me make it work somehow.

You realize plenty of us live off what you make with a family. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

My spending issue is directly related to the cost of living in my area. Happy to hear suggestions on how to reduce spending without moving to a different area of the country.

You realize you are posting in a very high cost area?

Different poster here. Not nearly as high as certain other high COL areas, PP. It makes a difference.

[Anonymous]

People are getting side-tracked. Middle class status is not defined by what you do. Its defined by what your choices are. A UMC person can choose to live a middle class lifestyle, but it's a choice. For a MC person, it's not a choice. I do think HHI is an easy proxy, but it doesn't count for things like family money, home equity, student debt (or lack thereof). But there are some good markers:

-- If you can afford private school (not parochial) without sacrificing elsewhere, you are not MC
-- Being house poor doesn't disqualify you from being MC. In fact, it's usually a sign that you are MC in your area. Yes, you could move to a lower COL area, but that's not always as feasible as people think given commutes and their costs (cars and gas and train tickets and parking are not free). The mere fact that you must choose between being house poor and living near your work, or a long commute but a more affordable home, is evidence that you are MC.
-- Large debt loads, but especially student debt, is a marker of the MC. Yes, there are UMC people with debt, but it's more likely to be asset-based debt (like a large mortgage) than student debt. And past 30 or 35, UMC people don't carry that much student debt because they have high HHI and are usually incentivized to start paying it down so that they can get better mortgage rates. But a MC person holds onto the debt because their HHI never gets high enough to start paying down principal more aggressively.
-- MC people can have expensive lifestyle habits (high rent, eating out a lot, travel) but it always comes as a trade-off. Often in the form of lots of credit card debt, but also in lack of savings, or having to sacrifice in one area to afford another (i.e. renting a cheap home to afford foreign travel). You might say "Oh, that's not being middle class, that's just poor choices." But that's the whole point -- a MC person HAS to make the choice. A UMC person doesn't. So a MC person with an expensive lifestyle and no savings might be dumb, but they are still MC.

Anyway, in the DMV, 120-150k with kids is definitely MC. In DC proper that's certainly true, but also in most close in suburbs. That HHI will mean having to make tough choices, and it's definitely not enough to afford private school or to discharge student debt rapidly UNLESS there is another source of funds (i.e. family money), in which case no, you are not MC, even if your HHI is in that category.

[Anonymous]

Many people here love to jump on the $200k HHI as being out of touch. I think that’s backwards for this area. If you are a family of 4 making under $200k in DC or close in burbs, you’re lower class. I don’t mean that pejoratively. American standards of living have been so depleted. A middle class family shout when able to afford a home within a reasonable commute of their job, send their kids to good public schools, and save for college. That is hard to do under $200k in this area without family wealth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People are getting side-tracked. Middle class status is not defined by what you do. Its defined by what your choices are. A UMC person can choose to live a middle class lifestyle, but it's a choice. For a MC person, it's not a choice. I do think HHI is an easy proxy, but it doesn't count for things like family money, home equity, student debt (or lack thereof). But there are some good markers:

-- If you can afford private school (not parochial) without sacrificing elsewhere, you are not MC
-- Being house poor doesn't disqualify you from being MC. In fact, it's usually a sign that you are MC in your area. Yes, you could move to a lower COL area, but that's not always as feasible as people think given commutes and their costs (cars and gas and train tickets and parking are not free). The mere fact that you must choose between being house poor and living near your work, or a long commute but a more affordable home, is evidence that you are MC.
-- Large debt loads, but especially student debt, is a marker of the MC. Yes, there are UMC people with debt, but it's more likely to be asset-based debt (like a large mortgage) than student debt. And past 30 or 35, UMC people don't carry that much student debt because they have high HHI and are usually incentivized to start paying it down so that they can get better mortgage rates. But a MC person holds onto the debt because their HHI never gets high enough to start paying down principal more aggressively.
-- MC people can have expensive lifestyle habits (high rent, eating out a lot, travel) but it always comes as a trade-off. Often in the form of lots of credit card debt, but also in lack of savings, or having to sacrifice in one area to afford another (i.e. renting a cheap home to afford foreign travel). You might say "Oh, that's not being middle class, that's just poor choices." But that's the whole point -- a MC person HAS to make the choice. A UMC person doesn't. So a MC person with an expensive lifestyle and no savings might be dumb, but they are still MC.

Anyway, in the DMV, 120-150k with kids is definitely MC. In DC proper that's certainly true, but also in most close in suburbs. That HHI will mean having to make tough choices, and it's definitely not enough to afford private school or to discharge student debt rapidly UNLESS there is another source of funds (i.e. family money), in which case no, you are not MC, even if your HHI is in that category.

No, its not defined by lifestyle choices, its defined by your HHI. $120-150 is not middle class and we live very comfortably on it.

[Anonymous]

45, HHI $80K, $150k in ret., 2 kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Middle class income depends on the zip code

What? No it doesn’t. You can’t be “middle class” just because you’re not the wealthiest person on the upper east side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many people here love to jump on the $200k HHI as being out of touch. I think that’s backwards for this area. If you are a family of 4 making under $200k in DC or close in burbs, you’re lower class. I don’t mean that pejoratively. American standards of living have been so depleted. A middle class family shout when able to afford a home within a reasonable commute of their job, send their kids to good public schools, and save for college. That is hard to do under $200k in this area without family wealth.

You are out of touch with the real world to think $200K is middle class. If you choose to live in a million dollar house for your claim of "good" schools, you are far from middle class. You are house poor. We comfortably save for retirement and college on 2/3 or less of your income. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people here love to jump on the $200k HHI as being out of touch. I think that’s backwards for this area. If you are a family of 4 making under $200k in DC or close in burbs, you’re lower class. I don’t mean that pejoratively. American standards of living have been so depleted. A middle class family shout when able to afford a home within a reasonable commute of their job, send their kids to good public schools, and save for college. That is hard to do under $200k in this area without family wealth.

You are out of touch with the real world to think $200K is middle class. If you choose to live in a million dollar house for your claim of "good" schools, you are far from middle class. You are house poor. We comfortably save for retirement and college on 2/3 or less of your income. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

Middle class HHI varies by region. Everyone always clamors to say they are middle class, rich and poor. We love to shit on rich people that say they are middle class but many lower income folks are deluding themselves that they are middle class as well. A middle class person should be able to live in a good school district within a 30 minute commute of their job and be able to comfortably save for college. I’d even throw in a yearly family vacation to the beach. Americans love to attack each other. Those things I listed are not frivolous. A college educated couple with good jobs SHOULD be able to afford that if they are “middle class.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I make 110K however the median household income in my area is 137K and cost of living is very high. As a single individual I was doing ok (able to max my retirement savings) and took home 57K last year (after deductions and taxes). Not much room for extras and I do drive a 20y.o. car but still felt comfortable. However as an expectant parent, it's actually not enough to be able to afford my rent (2650 for a 500 sqft apartment), infant daycare 2400-3000/month (not sure where I will get in off the waiting list and still looking for lower cost options), extra cost of health insurance for my child (an extra $472/month) plus pay for student loans, disability insurance, car insurance, food, etc without drastically reducing retirement savings. I'm looking at jobs in lower cost of living areas of the country. So even though my income places me in the top 20th percentile for national individual income (although only 70 percentile for household income), I guess I am middle class. Feeling a bit discouraged since I obvious can't really afford to have a kid in the area I currently l live, but I am determined to make it work somehow since it seems ridiculous to make so much more than the average person in this country and families with much lower income than me make it work somehow.

You realize plenty of us live off what you make with a family. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

My spending issue is directly related to the cost of living in my area. Happy to hear suggestions on how to reduce spending without moving to a different area of the country.

You realize you are posting in a very high cost area?

Different poster here. Not nearly as high as certain other high COL areas, PP. It makes a difference.

PP, Yes I looked at a job in the DC area a few years ago and cost of living was definitely lower than where I currently live. I would be less stressed in the DC area even though compared to the rest of the country it is a high cost of living area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people here love to jump on the $200k HHI as being out of touch. I think that’s backwards for this area. If you are a family of 4 making under $200k in DC or close in burbs, you’re lower class. I don’t mean that pejoratively. American standards of living have been so depleted. A middle class family shout when able to afford a home within a reasonable commute of their job, send their kids to good public schools, and save for college. That is hard to do under $200k in this area without family wealth.

You are out of touch with the real world to think $200K is middle class. If you choose to live in a million dollar house for your claim of "good" schools, you are far from middle class. You are house poor. We comfortably save for retirement and college on 2/3 or less of your income. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

Are you the same PP who has said "we live comfortably," "you have a spending issue," and "your mortgage must be large," multiple times? Why do you think that if someone lives comfortably, they can't be middle class? (I live in a $300k house and have a 2 hour commute, if that gives me cred here.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people here love to jump on the $200k HHI as being out of touch. I think that’s backwards for this area. If you are a family of 4 making under $200k in DC or close in burbs, you’re lower class. I don’t mean that pejoratively. American standards of living have been so depleted. A middle class family shout when able to afford a home within a reasonable commute of their job, send their kids to good public schools, and save for college. That is hard to do under $200k in this area without family wealth.

You are out of touch with the real world to think $200K is middle class. If you choose to live in a million dollar house for your claim of "good" schools, you are far from middle class. You are house poor. We comfortably save for retirement and college on 2/3 or less of your income. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

Middle class HHI varies by region. Everyone always clamors to say they are middle class, rich and poor. We love to shit on rich people that say they are middle class but many lower income folks are deluding themselves that they are middle class as well. A middle class person should be able to live in a good school district within a 30 minute commute of their job and be able to comfortably save for college. I’d even throw in a yearly family vacation to the beach. Americans love to attack each other. Those things I listed are not frivolous. A college educated couple with good jobs SHOULD be able to afford that if they are “middle class.”

PP, I think that 30 minute commute with good schools criterion really warps it to make MC status pretty unachievable in a lot of larger cities where people use public transit. I moved to DC a few years ago with one kid and an HHI of about $100k, but we tried to make sure we could pay our rent on the higher income of about $60k, which gave me a 35 minute bike or 1 hour metro commute. When we looked for a place to buy at about a $140k HHI last year, the best commute I could hope for was just over an hour by metro, and "good schools" were questionable.

Also, my brother tried to argue with me that he was "working class" despite being a manager at a nonprofit because in NYC he couldn't afford a house in a good school district IN NEW YORK CITY. I mean, join the club, dude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people here love to jump on the $200k HHI as being out of touch. I think that’s backwards for this area. If you are a family of 4 making under $200k in DC or close in burbs, you’re lower class. I don’t mean that pejoratively. American standards of living have been so depleted. A middle class family shout when able to afford a home within a reasonable commute of their job, send their kids to good public schools, and save for college. That is hard to do under $200k in this area without family wealth.

You are out of touch with the real world to think $200K is middle class. If you choose to live in a million dollar house for your claim of "good" schools, you are far from middle class. You are house poor. We comfortably save for retirement and college on 2/3 or less of your income. You have a spending issue, not income issue.

Are you the same PP who has said "we live comfortably," "you have a spending issue," and "your mortgage must be large," multiple times? Why do you think that if someone lives comfortably, they can't be middle class? (I live in a $300k house and have a 2 hour commute, if that gives me cred here.)

I'm not the poster you're replying to, but I will pile on to say that 200K and 300K incomes have no place on this thread, unless you have special circumstances like caring for 10 relatives, some of whom have expensive special needs. Nowhere in the US does a 200K income for a "normal" family of 4 qualify you as middle class. Even in much higher COL areas than DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you consider yourself middle class, please come in and talk to me! What do you worry about? What do you make? How do you feel about it? This board stresses me out sometimes. People are so wealthy!!

I think we are middle class with HHI ca $140k in NW. We live in a huge 1-bedroom condo which we can afford on one salary. Don't really worry about anything. Kids go to public schools and are doing well. We are not huge travelers (Europe every 3 years, FL once a year) or spenders. Kids are not in any activities requiring money and rarely ask for money. I have been able to take 3-4 months off a year to spend summers with my kids. Life is good.
College? I think we might have enough cash when the time comes or they can go to a European one for nearly free.
We are not really house people. A bigger condo would be nice in couple of years.

[Anonymous]

110K HHI, 3 kids (second was twins). I’m currently a SAHM but will go back to work once the younger kids are in school. We have about 50K in student loan debt, 1 car (paid off), and mortgage for our house in EOTP NW DC. It’s VERY tight at times but I’d consider us middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:None of these posters are middle class. Except maybe the $120k poster who I thought had reasonable reasons for considering middle class. And I say this as a family with a $180k combined income in Arlington with two kids so I’m similar to many who have posted but it is beyond me how people could think that makes them middle class. Yes I understand we make less than many nearby us but that doesn’t make us middle class.

Of course they are middle class.

You need to think about it differently. You know all the people who you think are *actually* middle class? They are scraping by. And that is NOT middle class. In fact, in the old days we’d call them working class or poor. Middle class isn’t a number so don’t get hung up on it. It’s a feeling, a job, and purchasing power. If you’re in a small home or in a modest neighborhood and send your kids to public school and shop at Aldi and drive an old car, then you are middle class. ☺️