Is Basis really as hard as people think?

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Am I the only one who questions the value of homework? By 5th grade, I probably had some math problems most nights (it's so long ago, I may not remember correctly) but that's probably all. I was ten years old. I did not have an hour or more per night and 5 hours on the weekend. I got into an Ivy anyway. Is all of this work of actual instructional value? The Finns don't do this to their children, and they're among the top scorers in the world. Does anyone else wonder if we're beating the love of learning out of our children, instead of encouraging it?


Keep in mind that the BASIS curriculum in accelerated. A BASIS fifth grader should probably be doing the same amount of homework as a sixth or seventh grader at another school. Also, that BASIS fifth grader can usually graduate after 111th grade with up 10 APs under his belt, so he can probably skip most of freshman year at college as well.


See but this is where I think the BASIS model is out of whack, despite possessing some strong traits as a school. What is the purpose of elementary and secondary school? Is it to prepare for and then take the most amount of APs by 11th grade, and position oneself to graduate from college in 3 years? Yes perhaps from some parents point of view. Almost always no if you put yourself in the shoes of the child. APs are not without worth. They show colleges an objective score, like the SAT. But having 12 4s and 5s is not 3x better than having 4 4s and 5s. Colleges want interesting kids. Extracurriculars and community service and other growth experiences will be much more important than piling on the APs, and this is something BASIS doesn't seem to get (although perhaps it only becomes a problem in the later grades). Additionally, though the brochures don't mention it, I assure you that all classes teach to the test. In AP courses this is a given, but in lower school teachers are evaluated primarily on comp pass rates. Again, the AP is not a bad test in itself, but they are multiple choice heavy and the writing components are quite superficial exercises.


BASIS is not an elementary school, though. BASIS is a public charter prep school. The goal of the BASIS upper school is to prepare its students to be admitted to graduate from top-tier four-year colleges. The goal of the BASIS lower school is to prepare its students, many of whom come from under-performing elementary schools, for the rigorous upper school curriculum. I note also that the BASIS lower school originally started with the sixth grade. The fifth grade was added later, apparently as a remedial year, and fifth graders do not have to pass comprehensive exams to be promoted, as students in every other grade must.

One way to prepare kids for college is, well, to teach them college-level material. The AP exam serves two roles. First, it provides objective evidence that the student has mastered the material. Preparing students for the AP Chemistry exam is not "teaching to the test", it is "teaching chemistry." Second, it keeps the student from having to cover the material again in college and allows him or her to move on to move advanced classes.

As for extracurriculars, BASIS students pursue them both at school and out of school. An academically rigorous curriculum and extracurricular activities are not mutually exclusive. BASIS offers up to two hours of extracurricular activities each day after school, and many if not most BASIS students participate. Due to the rigors of the curriculum, BASIS students develop strong work ethics and time management skills that serve them well in other areas of their lives.

Oh, and BASIS students go on to top private and public colleges and universities, so BASIS seems to "get it".

If you want something done, ask a busy person to do it. The more things you do, the more you can do.
-Lucille Ball



See this is where, as a high school history teacher and Amherst grad I'd have to respectfully disagree. Yes, the AP like the SAT provides an important objective evaluation of the student. This is a good thing. And the APs are fine academic exercises. Learn some stuff, fill in some bubbles, move along. But it is a very passive and superficial experience at core. This is why private schools look down on the AP or at least certainly make it only one part of the high school experience.

Perhaps with the exception of math and maybe the sciences, it is not helpful to think of AP courses as "covering" or "replacing" college material. No top tier college accepts AP credit although state schools may because their intro classes are so often remedial rather than truly introductory. The problem with BASIS is that it seems to think that high school is about learning stuff, when in fact it should really be primarily about learning how and why to learn stuff. Basing an entire high school curriculum on APs (the more the merrier) therefore in my opinion is a mistake. Some will burn out & leave, others that stay may develop passive resigned attitude to their studies, others will simply want to know what is on the test. Absolutely most all who get through BASIS will get into colleges, including some top tier. But will their high school experience have been all that it could/should have been? This I seriously doubt.
Anonymous
"No top tier college accepts AP credit although state schools may because their intro classes are so often remedial rather than truly introductory."

Really, this is news to me unless things have changed. I went to Princeton and I tested out of freshman English with AP. Calculus (math requirement) too.

I have no problems with BASIS's focus on math and science since DC has no magnet test-in STEM program. Looks like they do a good job with the parameters they're give, taking all comers with no testing for admissions.

Thanks for the insightful discussion all and we'll consider BASIS for DC when the time comes.
Anonymous
Let's be honest here - the vast majority of DC schools and charters are NOT college-preparatory in the first place, let alone preparing students for "highly selective" universities.

Of all of DC's schools, only a handful have any meaningful college preparatory curriculum, and only a handful have Honors/AP coursework opportunities. And even among the better ones that do, like Latin, they are typically still weak on STEM.

BASIS as a new school adds to that too-small pool of college-preparatory options in DC, and bolsters it with a strong STEM focus. Yes, it's challenging, yes, it's a lot of work, but no, it's not at all about creating robotic automatons who can just spew data but are incapable of thinking.

I have been impressed with how well the individual classes connect, complement and build upon each other at BASIS, both from class to class within grade, and with logical sequencing from grade to grade to connect there as well. BASIS is not about rote memorization - it's about learning foundational elements and building upon them. It's a refreshing break from the traditional paradigm of disconnected, un-coordinated coursework where it's the luck of the draw what you might get from class to class and from grade to grade. Additionally, BASIS has put an excellent focus on the HOW and WHY - not just facts but theory and deeper, critical understanding of the content, along with a focus on organizational skills, study skills, writing skills, time management, and the lifelong skills that any professional would need to succeed in the world.

While some posters seem to be stuck in the weeds of "holy cow, that much math homework" and "holy cow, they are memorizing the periodic table in 5th grade", they may not see that as what they had in mind, maybe their background is liberal arts or other fields - but for us - who ARE actually from hard science and engineering backgrounds, and who are planning on college, and likely graduate school and a potential career in innovative tech or science for DC, the "big picture" view of BASIS is fantastic.
Anonymous
"No top tier college accepts AP credit although state schools may because their intro classes are so often remedial rather than truly introductory."

Really, this is news to me unless things have changed. I went to Princeton and I tested out of freshman English with AP. Calculus (math requirement) too.

I have no problems with BASIS's focus on math and science since DC has no magnet test-in STEM program. Looks like they do a good job with the parameters they're give, taking all comers with no testing for admissions.

Thanks for the insightful discussion all and we'll consider BASIS for DC when the time comes.


Not to derail this thread, but things have indeed changed. Many colleges no longer take AP for credit, although it still looks good on an application. Also, increasingly, more and more colleges and universities are rethinking the SAT requirement. I know this because I work in higher ed.

BASIS people can now have their thread back.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
"No top tier college accepts AP credit although state schools may because their intro classes are so often remedial rather than truly introductory."

Really, this is news to me unless things have changed. I went to Princeton and I tested out of freshman English with AP. Calculus (math requirement) too.

I have no problems with BASIS's focus on math and science since DC has no magnet test-in STEM program. Looks like they do a good job with the parameters they're give, taking all comers with no testing for admissions.

Thanks for the insightful discussion all and we'll consider BASIS for DC when the time comes.


Not to derail this thread, but things have indeed changed. Many colleges no longer take AP for credit, although it still looks good on an application. Also, increasingly, more and more colleges and universities are rethinking the SAT requirement. I know this because I work in higher ed.

BASIS people can now have their thread back.


Ok, I went to college a million yrs ago, 80ties, but I recall people talking about making the SATs optional then too. Nevertheless, people who are applying to highly competitive colleges still take them and probably will take them anyway even if they are not required. I'm sure the very top students will take the APs, credit or not, given the level of competition to the Ivies and similar schools. All this talk about not requiring SATs, APs, etc will not amount to much in the end.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
"No top tier college accepts AP credit although state schools may because their intro classes are so often remedial rather than truly introductory."

Really, this is news to me unless things have changed. I went to Princeton and I tested out of freshman English with AP. Calculus (math requirement) too.

I have no problems with BASIS's focus on math and science since DC has no magnet test-in STEM program. Looks like they do a good job with the parameters they're give, taking all comers with no testing for admissions.

Thanks for the insightful discussion all and we'll consider BASIS for DC when the time comes.


Not to derail this thread, but things have indeed changed. Many colleges no longer take AP for credit, although it still looks good on an application. Also, increasingly, more and more colleges and universities are rethinking the SAT requirement. I know this because I work in higher ed.

BASIS people can now have their thread back.


Ok, I went to college a million yrs ago, 80ties, but I recall people talking about making the SATs optional then too. Nevertheless, people who are applying to highly competitive colleges still take them and probably will take them anyway even if they are not required. I'm sure the very top students will take the APs, credit or not, given the level of competition to the Ivies and similar schools. All this talk about not requiring SATs, APs, etc will not amount to much in the end.


Agree, but I think the question about the BASIS model is not whether APs are bad, but whether they should constitute the great bulk of the entire high school curriculum (also including AP history in 8th grade). Too much of a good thing, I think, is the concern. You can't write a college application essay talking about all the AP study sessions you attended. I also agree with a PP that BASIS may be much better suited to engineering / math types, but still believe as a matter of developmental psychology that even for this small subset of kids there are other things that need to be focused on in high school. BASIS will turn out college-ready kids to be sure, and continue to attract kids of highly motivated parents, but will underserve all but the most unusually focused and gifted kids. As I have said before, even with this serious shortcoming, BASIS may well still be among the least worst free school options out there. (No drug dealing in the bathrooms, for example, - although having to deal with that environment would make a great college app essay!)
Anonymous
AP study sessions? What is that? Does Basis run these in addition to AP courses? I never had study sessions for AP other than the course itself which was very enjoyable and taught at the college level.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:While some posters seem to be stuck in the weeds of "holy cow, that much math homework" and "holy cow, they are memorizing the periodic table in 5th grade", they may not see that as what they had in mind, maybe their background is liberal arts or other fields - but for us - who ARE actually from hard science and engineering backgrounds, and who are planning on college, and likely graduate school and a potential career in innovative tech or science for DC, the "big picture" view of BASIS is fantastic.


What about the big picture view of DC charters being geared toward serving low-income and lower-middle-class AA students? My 4th grader is Asian and upper-middle-class. I'm not sure I want to enroll DC in the BASIS middle school because that may well put me on a path to having to pay for an independent HS to stay in the District, making life tough for my kid socially. Almost seems better to bail for MoCo for 6th so that my kid learns what he has to in order to keep up there for HS, preferably in a test-in academic magnet like Blair math and science, or an IB program up there.

I know I'l have a strong HS in MoCo whereas in DC, I may just have what Latin has, a HS that's around 80% AA and poor. Not what I'm looking for my kid socially since I had that myself in HS and didn't enjoy it much. From where I sit, a fantastic big picture view of BASIS would include a HS population that's at least half non AA, in other words truly diverse, are we going to get that? Doesn't sound like it when Latin is far from a good HS mix after a decade. I too hava a STEM background and nearly half the class at my alma mater was Asian.









Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While some posters seem to be stuck in the weeds of "holy cow, that much math homework" and "holy cow, they are memorizing the periodic table in 5th grade", they may not see that as what they had in mind, maybe their background is liberal arts or other fields - but for us - who ARE actually from hard science and engineering backgrounds, and who are planning on college, and likely graduate school and a potential career in innovative tech or science for DC, the "big picture" view of BASIS is fantastic.


What about the big picture view of DC charters being geared toward serving low-income and lower-middle-class AA students? My 4th grader is Asian and upper-middle-class. I'm not sure I want to enroll DC in the BASIS middle school because that may well put me on a path to having to pay for an independent HS to stay in the District, making life tough for my kid socially. Almost seems better to bail for MoCo for 6th so that my kid learns what he has to in order to keep up there for HS, preferably in a test-in academic magnet like Blair math and science, or an IB program up there.

I know I'l have a strong HS in MoCo whereas in DC, I may just have what Latin has, a HS that's around 80% AA and poor. Not what I'm looking for my kid socially since I had that myself in HS and didn't enjoy it much. From where I sit, a fantastic big picture view of BASIS would include a HS population that's at least half non AA, in other words truly diverse, are we going to get that? Doesn't sound like it when Latin is far from a good HS mix after a decade. I too hava a STEM background and nearly half the class at my alma mater was Asian.


You won't need to seek out another HS because BASIS is building out high school with the current flight of students. We are planning on having our current BASIS 5th grader stay at BASIS straight through to college. And as for demographic and diversity, I'm good with BASIS on that score. Sure, there are some low-income AA students there, but there are also kids who get dropped off by limo, there are white, latino, and a fair number of european and international students, as well as other demographics represented there as well.
Anonymous
Are there really limo kids? I haven't seen them and have seen a whole lot of MD plates, as per usual in at any decent DC public/charter school.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While some posters seem to be stuck in the weeds of "holy cow, that much math homework" and "holy cow, they are memorizing the periodic table in 5th grade", they may not see that as what they had in mind, maybe their background is liberal arts or other fields - but for us - who ARE actually from hard science and engineering backgrounds, and who are planning on college, and likely graduate school and a potential career in innovative tech or science for DC, the "big picture" view of BASIS is fantastic.


What about the big picture view of DC charters being geared toward serving low-income and lower-middle-class AA students? My 4th grader is Asian and upper-middle-class. I'm not sure I want to enroll DC in the BASIS middle school because that may well put me on a path to having to pay for an independent HS to stay in the District, making life tough for my kid socially. Almost seems better to bail for MoCo for 6th so that my kid learns what he has to in order to keep up there for HS, preferably in a test-in academic magnet like Blair math and science, or an IB program up there.

I know I'l have a strong HS in MoCo whereas in DC, I may just have what Latin has, a HS that's around 80% AA and poor. Not what I'm looking for my kid socially since I had that myself in HS and didn't enjoy it much. From where I sit, a fantastic big picture view of BASIS would include a HS population that's at least half non AA, in other words truly diverse, are we going to get that? Doesn't sound like it when Latin is far from a good HS mix after a decade. I too hava a STEM background and nearly half the class at my alma mater was Asian.


You won't need to seek out another HS because BASIS is building out high school with the current flight of students. We are planning on having our current BASIS 5th grader stay at BASIS straight through to college. And as for demographic and diversity, I'm good with BASIS on that score. Sure, there are some low-income AA students there, but there are also kids who get dropped off by limo, there are white, latino, and a fair number of european and international students, as well as other demographics represented there as well.


One difference which may prove to be a major differentiator between BASIS and Latin is that unlike Latin, BASIS does not do social promotion. Students have to pass comprehensive exams in order to advance - and as I hear it, they have no intention of watering down the acceleration, curriculum and expectations simply because it is DC. There will no doubt be attrition as a result, separating the students who are motivated and hard working from the ones who are just coasting along, or who aren't really cut out for an intense program. Additionally, they will ultimately only be accepting incoming students at 5th grade, unless incoming students in the upper grades can demonstrate that they are coming from a similarly accelerated program, so that they won't be coming in several grades behind.

That approach is currently not the case with Latin, where they have social promotion, and where they have to deal with a fair number of kids coming in at all grade levels who are far behind where they should be.
Anonymous
Thought this was relevant to topics raised on this particular thread. The following is a recent article about Dartmouth no longer accepting AP credit (starting with the class of 2018) and the institution's reasons behind the decision:

http://wtop.com/209/3196571/Dartmouth-College-ending-Advanced-Placement-credit
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While some posters seem to be stuck in the weeds of "holy cow, that much math homework" and "holy cow, they are memorizing the periodic table in 5th grade", they may not see that as what they had in mind, maybe their background is liberal arts or other fields - but for us - who ARE actually from hard science and engineering backgrounds, and who are planning on college, and likely graduate school and a potential career in innovative tech or science for DC, the "big picture" view of BASIS is fantastic.


What about the big picture view of DC charters being geared toward serving low-income and lower-middle-class AA students? My 4th grader is Asian and upper-middle-class. I'm not sure I want to enroll DC in the BASIS middle school because that may well put me on a path to having to pay for an independent HS to stay in the District, making life tough for my kid socially. Almost seems better to bail for MoCo for 6th so that my kid learns what he has to in order to keep up there for HS, preferably in a test-in academic magnet like Blair math and science, or an IB program up there.

I know I'l have a strong HS in MoCo whereas in DC, I may just have what Latin has, a HS that's around 80% AA and poor. Not what I'm looking for my kid socially since I had that myself in HS and didn't enjoy it much. From where I sit, a fantastic big picture view of BASIS would include a HS population that's at least half non AA, in other words truly diverse, are we going to get that? Doesn't sound like it when Latin is far from a good HS mix after a decade. I too hava a STEM background and nearly half the class at my alma mater was Asian.


You won't need to seek out another HS because BASIS is building out high school with the current flight of students. We are planning on having our current BASIS 5th grader stay at BASIS straight through to college. And as for demographic and diversity, I'm good with BASIS on that score. Sure, there are some low-income AA students there, but there are also kids who get dropped off by limo, there are white, latino, and a fair number of european and international students, as well as other demographics represented there as well.


One difference which may prove to be a major differentiator between BASIS and Latin is that unlike Latin, BASIS does not do social promotion. Students have to pass comprehensive exams in order to advance - and as I hear it, they have no intention of watering down the acceleration, curriculum and expectations simply because it is DC. There will no doubt be attrition as a result, separating the students who are motivated and hard working from the ones who are just coasting along, or who aren't really cut out for an intense program. Additionally, they will ultimately only be accepting incoming students at 5th grade, unless incoming students in the upper grades can demonstrate that they are coming from a similarly accelerated program, so that they won't be coming in several grades behind.

That approach is currently not the case with Latin, where they have social promotion, and where they have to deal with a fair number of kids coming in at all grade levels who are far behind where they should be.


Regarding incoming students that are far behind, they may end up getting placed in a lower grade. But one of the other great things about BASIS is that they offer a lot of support to the students who may be struggling, with STARS tutoring, math lab, reading lab - and also, regarding the comps, if a student fails comps, they will have an opportunity to study over the summer and retake the comps. While they set high expectations, they also offer a lot of support and opportunities to make it work for those willing to put in the effort.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Thought this was relevant to topics raised on this particular thread. The following is a recent article about Dartmouth no longer accepting AP credit (starting with the class of 2018) and the institution's reasons behind the decision:

http://wtop.com/209/3196571/Dartmouth-College-ending-Advanced-Placement-credit


I'm sure that some of that sentiment relates to how even nationally the high school curriculum has been watered down.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Thought this was relevant to topics raised on this particular thread. The following is a recent article about Dartmouth no longer accepting AP credit (starting with the class of 2018) and the institution's reasons behind the decision:

http://wtop.com/209/3196571/Dartmouth-College-ending-Advanced-Placement-credit


I'm sure that some of that sentiment relates to how even nationally the high school curriculum has been watered down.


Regarding AP course, I am not too concerned since they are still a step up from regular high school courses and honors high school courses. This article from an education blog has an interesting article and comments:

[url]http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2013/01/dartmouth-strikes-blow-against-ap.html
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