Requirements for medical school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

Gap years are chosen, not needed. I am a physician, I co-own a premed-advising consultant group, and have three premeds in among my kids or neice/nephews currently, one at UVA, one at ivy, one at another ivy. None are taking gap years. The ivies have data showing 35-40% of med school applicants each year have zero gap years. A specific large southern public in the overall top 65 has 85% taking a gap. Their advising from what I see with applicants is terrible. The culture on campus is gaps are needed. They often do not use their first two summers for premed requirements, huge mistake.
Uva to my knowledge does not release the percent that gap, but they remain an excellent premed program which advises well and prepares well for the MCAT.
Of the 65% who chose a gap year at the ivies, most are a choice in order to spread out the coursework slightly, typically move biochem to senior year and physics to junior, to help with maximizing grades. Others are 3.9+ kids who easily have the grades but get accepted to prestigious 1-year fellowship programs such as paid-for MPH, NIH fellow, Fulbright, others. The ivy my kid attends is very clear that gap years are not necessary, as there are plenty of resources for clinical experience, research, volunteering, right on campus. Premed advising meets with students and advises planned gaps when the grades are not ideal after the first 1-2 years. No one is gatekept from applying though some are strongly encouraged to gap.

Look on the AMCAS website, read on premed advising sites at the top schools with med schools on or near campus. The non-academic requirements can easily be completed as an extra EC during the semester(5-8 hrs a week is plenty) as well as the first three summers (over 400 hours each summer available to fill with research, clinical experience, and more). As long as the courses are rigorous, MCAT studying should not take more than 6-8 weeks of part time study on the weekends and on evenings during the semester or during the summer, many can get 515+ with much less. A student suited for medicine will be able to get at least a 508+ with that diligent schedule. Those who do not want to put in evening or weekend work to study for the most important test they will take do not belong in medicine.

What non-MD parents do not understand is that the non-academic requirements were suggestions in the late 90s when my cohort applied.
There were multiple years in a row that were harder to get in (33-35% of all US med applicants got in to at least one school vs 38-41% currently). AMCAS added "requirements" because it was clear back then that top schools were strongly pushing science research, volunteering in clinical settings and more for their premeds, while students applying from lesser schools were just doing the basics listed on AMCAS. Furthermore, these schools strongly pushed the "recommended" classes (biochem, cell bio, psych, stats in addition to 2 sem calc): if you wanted a glowing letter in the 90s you had better have taken all the recommended ones, and these schools told their students that upfront. The result back then: Med admissions skewed heavily toward these in-the-know undergrad programs (ivies, Duke, WashU,+ 20-30 other usual suspects) because these programs had applicants with resumes that are like all applicants have to have today. The fair solution was to up the official requirements so anyone from any undergrad would be on an even playing field.
My peers and I, from the same ivy as my kid attends today, did the same things they recommend now. At my top med school about 3/4 were from T30 unis/top 10 SLACs which does not happen anymore.
I served on med school admissions years ago and have a premed advising consultancy now, with other docs from top schools. It is more equitable now, and based on the raw math is slightly easier to gain acceptance to a US medical school now versus the mid to late 90s.

Thank you for this....my child is pre-med at UVA now and while I don't have the statistics handy, they did share them with us and success rate after a gap year had a notable increase. Trying to wrap our head around it all because there are ample opportunities at UVA for research, clinical hours, volunteering to do in undergrad....not understanding why the gap year is so needed/recommended!

Gap year(s) when used wisely makes your kid a much stronger applicant. Simple as that. Reapplying is not a good idea so make sure your kid meets all the requirements (hard and soft) before applying

[Anonymous]

Newbie here. Where can we find these “requirements”?

Can someone also provide names of consultants. DS only a sophomore in HS so also need advice on getting into good college pre med programs. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

college wasn’t physically located close enough to a hospital

If an undergraduate is interested in premed, I would only consider large universities with an affiliated teaching hospital.

Pre-Med opportunities and offering the easiest way to be tracked, be on the most direct path to admission. And other programs are around you - PT, OC, Pharmacy, Nursing, Dentistry, all kinds of Allied Health fields if the student pivots to a different major.

Interesting comment, particularly in light of the simple fact that top SLACs have better admissions success rates than all but a few universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

These "smart" kids can always bypass the US requirements and get their degrees at a caribbean med school.

We also have a lot of Indian educated doctors practicing in the country now. I assume they may also go to India to pursue a medical degree.

It is significantly and demonstrably harder to match into a US residency as a US student who went to the Caribbean for medical school. DO school in the US is a more secure path for those that are borderline for MD program admittance. Though some DO programs have 30% scramble/unmathced rates, most are around 15%. US MD programs are still the best way into US Residency programs, with almost all having 99% match rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Newbie here. Where can we find these “requirements”?

Can someone also provide names of consultants. DS only a sophomore in HS so also need advice on getting into good college pre med programs. Thanks!

AMCAS website lists requirements as well as recommendations, for each US MD program. In addition, AMCAS has data broken down by GPA and MCAT on %of applicants who land acceptance to at least one MD program. Much like top colleges, recommended means required unless you are from a significantly disadvantaged group, and rigor of undergrad coursework matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

college wasn’t physically located close enough to a hospital

If an undergraduate is interested in premed, I would only consider large universities with an affiliated teaching hospital.

Pre-Med opportunities and offering the easiest way to be tracked, be on the most direct path to admission. And other programs are around you - PT, OC, Pharmacy, Nursing, Dentistry, all kinds of Allied Health fields if the student pivots to a different major.

Interesting comment, particularly in light of the simple fact that top SLACs have better admissions success rates than all but a few universities.

No such thing as “simple fact”. You can make numbers show what they want you to see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are there so many requirements for getting into medical school now? So many hours of extra stuff?? Why spend 4 yrs on undergrad classes but still need a gap year to do all the requirements and apply?

On the other end, there is a growing shortage of every doctor specialty, even in urban areas.

Smart kids who are qualified and interested are turned off by all the stupid requirements and the immense time it takes to do them.

The system should make it easier for these kids to pursue medicine, not harder. It’s already a long grueling expensive road as it is. Why is the system making it even that much more difficult and more expensive?? As a society, this makes no sense at all.

Thoughts?

Gap years are chosen, not needed. I am a physician, I co-own a premed-advising consultant group, and have three premeds in among my kids or neice/nephews currently, one at UVA, one at ivy, one at another ivy. None are taking gap years. The ivies have data showing 35-40% of med school applicants each year have zero gap years. A specific large southern public in the overall top 65 has 85% taking a gap. Their advising from what I see with applicants is terrible. The culture on campus is gaps are needed. They often do not use their first two summers for premed requirements, huge mistake.
Uva to my knowledge does not release the percent that gap, but they remain an excellent premed program which advises well and prepares well for the MCAT.
Of the 65% who chose a gap year at the ivies, most are a choice in order to spread out the coursework slightly, typically move biochem to senior year and physics to junior, to help with maximizing grades. Others are 3.9+ kids who easily have the grades but get accepted to prestigious 1-year fellowship programs such as paid-for MPH, NIH fellow, Fulbright, others. The ivy my kid attends is very clear that gap years are not necessary, as there are plenty of resources for clinical experience, research, volunteering, right on campus. Premed advising meets with students and advises planned gaps when the grades are not ideal after the first 1-2 years. No one is gatekept from applying though some are strongly encouraged to gap.

Look on the AMCAS website, read on premed advising sites at the top schools with med schools on or near campus. The non-academic requirements can easily be completed as an extra EC during the semester(5-8 hrs a week is plenty) as well as the first three summers (over 400 hours each summer available to fill with research, clinical experience, and more). As long as the courses are rigorous, MCAT studying should not take more than 6-8 weeks of part time study on the weekends and on evenings during the semester or during the summer, many can get 515+ with much less. A student suited for medicine will be able to get at least a 508+ with that diligent schedule. Those who do not want to put in evening or weekend work to study for the most important test they will take do not belong in medicine.

What non-MD parents do not understand is that the non-academic requirements were suggestions in the late 90s when my cohort applied.
There were multiple years in a row that were harder to get in (33-35% of all US med applicants got in to at least one school vs 38-41% currently). AMCAS added "requirements" because it was clear back then that top schools were strongly pushing science research, volunteering in clinical settings and more for their premeds, while students applying from lesser schools were just doing the basics listed on AMCAS. Furthermore, these schools strongly pushed the "recommended" classes (biochem, cell bio, psych, stats in addition to 2 sem calc): if you wanted a glowing letter in the 90s you had better have taken all the recommended ones, and these schools told their students that upfront. The result back then: Med admissions skewed heavily toward these in-the-know undergrad programs (ivies, Duke, WashU,+ 20-30 other usual suspects) because these programs had applicants with resumes that are like all applicants have to have today. The fair solution was to up the official requirements so anyone from any undergrad would be on an even playing field.
My peers and I, from the same ivy as my kid attends today, did the same things they recommend now. At my top med school about 3/4 were from T30 unis/top 10 SLACs which does not happen anymore.
I served on med school admissions years ago and have a premed advising consultancy now, with other docs from top schools. It is more equitable now, and based on the raw math is slightly easier to gain acceptance to a US medical school now versus the mid to late 90s.

Thank you for this....my child is pre-med at UVA now and while I don't have the statistics handy, they did share them with us and success rate after a gap year had a notable increase. Trying to wrap our head around it all because there are ample opportunities at UVA for research, clinical hours, volunteering to do in undergrad....not understanding why the gap year is so needed/recommended!

Depends on the undergrad program and where the student tracks within it. In general gap year(s) needed when the GPA or MCAT or both are not in line with high chance of acceptance at the student's home-state medical school(s). In-state public med schools typically have the highest % acceptance rate for residents. If the stats are not in line with admission to what is likely to be the student's easiest admission, they need a gap. A good premed advising program, which UVA has, will advise students if they need a gap year or two. The best premed advising programs will meet with students as early as freshman year and begin the advice of gap years to spread out coursework as soon as the GPA makes it clear that the student is not on track. Keep in mind that at some schools with grade inflation(most), a 3.7 is not on track to avoid a gap, and one C in a core premed course puts you in the recommended gap year track.

[Anonymous]

Agree with others that gap year is optional -not required- to enhance application portfolio. As opposed to other competitive professional fields (law and business in particular), the prestige level of a particular medical school is a lot less important than the ability to get a spot in an allopathic or osteopathic medical school, preferably in the U.S. Chances in getting into a good residency after graduation can be significantly enhanced with excellent USMLE 2 CK score and good clinical LORs, regardless of the ranking of the medical school. Even without a gap year, there is a decent (~50%) chance for a reasonably well-prepared candidate to be accepted at one of the 200+ medical schools in the U.S. One can argue that there will be a place (at the right selectivity level) for a well-prepared candidate who has a decent GPA and MCAT scores and have fulfilled the course requirements. Hence, applying to medical school with goal to practice medicine is mostly a matter of finding the right 'match' based on the stats (GPA + MCAT), fit, state residency (tuition related). Prestige should be less of a criteria/goal, instead it is a byproduct of what one can get.

[Anonymous]

So many posters saying Bs/Cs not good enough and may need to spread out coursework if GPA not great. Are these kids cut out for med school?

Hundreds of hours shadowing, clinical volunteering, community service- hundreds of hours- what is the purpose of so many hours as an undergrad?

Then in med school- kids routine staying up until 2-3am studying… how is this good? Why are they cramming in so much information in 1-1.5 years? Wouldn’t the gap year be better spent learning some of this? Seems better to space out med school over an extra year instead of spacing out premed/gap over so many years. Sure, it’s great learn everything but is it really better to learn multi variable calculus/linear algebra or advanced physics topics instead of taking more time to learn anatomy/physiology/pathophysiology?
Most vast majority of physicians use algebra 1 at the most. And if you need other advanced topics, you get that in residency.

[Anonymous]

PP. A good list to start the search for the 'right' medical schoo.
https://med.admit.org/school-rankings

[Anonymous]

To the previous poster with the advising company, can you give us the name of your company?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many posters saying Bs/Cs not good enough and may need to spread out coursework if GPA not great. Are these kids cut out for med school?

Hundreds of hours shadowing, clinical volunteering, community service- hundreds of hours- what is the purpose of so many hours as an undergrad?

Then in med school- kids routine staying up until 2-3am studying… how is this good? Why are they cramming in so much information in 1-1.5 years? Wouldn’t the gap year be better spent learning some of this? Seems better to space out med school over an extra year instead of spacing out premed/gap over so many years. Sure, it’s great learn everything but is it really better to learn multi variable calculus/linear algebra or advanced physics topics instead of taking more time to learn anatomy/physiology/pathophysiology?
Most vast majority of physicians use algebra 1 at the most. And if you need other advanced topics, you get that in residency.

I believe Carle UIUC is the only med school in the U.S. (in the world?) that requires MV Calc / Lin Alg due to its engineering focus
https://medicine.illinois.edu/admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Newbie here. Where can we find these “requirements”?

Can someone also provide names of consultants. DS only a sophomore in HS so also need advice on getting into good college pre med programs. Thanks!

Back off, mommy. It is way too early for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

college wasn’t physically located close enough to a hospital

If an undergraduate is interested in premed, I would only consider large universities with an affiliated teaching hospital.

Pre-Med opportunities and offering the easiest way to be tracked, be on the most direct path to admission. And other programs are around you - PT, OC, Pharmacy, Nursing, Dentistry, all kinds of Allied Health fields if the student pivots to a different major.

Interesting comment, particularly in light of the simple fact that top SLACs have better admissions success rates than all but a few universities.

I had the same thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many posters saying Bs/Cs not good enough and may need to spread out coursework if GPA not great. Are these kids cut out for med school?

Hundreds of hours shadowing, clinical volunteering, community service- hundreds of hours- what is the purpose of so many hours as an undergrad?

Then in med school- kids routine staying up until 2-3am studying… how is this good? Why are they cramming in so much information in 1-1.5 years? Wouldn’t the gap year be better spent learning some of this? Seems better to space out med school over an extra year instead of spacing out premed/gap over so many years. Sure, it’s great learn everything but is it really better to learn multi variable calculus/linear algebra or advanced physics topics instead of taking more time to learn anatomy/physiology/pathophysiology?
Most vast majority of physicians use algebra 1 at the most. And if you need other advanced topics, you get that in residency.

tell me you are not a physician without telling me ....