Thoughts about Brent Upper School from parents of kids who have gone through 5th?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The child of a family we know stayed for 5th last year and they were surprised how happy they were with it, having heard the kinds of stuff mentioned in other posts here. They didn’t think that their child was repeating work, so maybe the school resolved that by last year. They said they actually felt like the small size of fifth helped their child get more attention and differentiated work, especially in math, where they break out the fifth graders to teach them alone, and there just aren’t that many of them. They were happy with the social experience too and said their kid became really close with the other fifth graders. Obviously YMMV if your kid’s close friends all get into charters and they don’t want to make new friends. But it sounds like both the social and academic experience can have some benefits.

It sad when they’re selling families on the benefits of getting broken out to do on grade level math. Like, literally, they’re excited because they got taught 5th grade math… unlike the other grade level content that they didn’t get. Treating 5th as 4th redux while charters are treating it as year 1 of middle school just puts kids behind the 8 ball. The only kids I know who have been happy in Brent’s 5th grade are the kids who were academically average/below average for demographics.

Agree. I have a kids that went through Latin and BASIS. Kids will rise or fall to the level of expectation. The idea of leveling 5th graders down while the charters are demanding excellence is crazy.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child attended 5th grade at Brent - Upper School model. This model was extremely isolating for them. The 5th grade students are grouped into 6 ish students in a class of 18ish 4th graders. The 4th graders already have their friends and have no interest in socializing with the "left over" 5th graders. Further, it was only by luck you are with the 1-2 friends that didn't switch schools. It felt like starting new after being at the school for many, many years. The teachers or Principal also refused to have 5th-grade only focused activities. Teachers focused heavily on 4th grade learning so my child was very bored. Bored and lonely. We supplemented at home, as did most other 5th grade peers, which more likely attributed to maintained or increased test scores. My [academically advanced] child had to listen to the same math and English lessons -- even read the identical books -- and was not held to a higher standard. They were pulled into the "advanced" group in math but that was pretty dismal in terms of learning. Brent may be showing "higher" test scores but I call BS. Their model is both academically and socially damaging without outside support and intervention. The Principal doesn't give a hoot about the 5th grade experience either. Also, this past year 3 of 4 Upper School teachers left so that says a lot as well.

Thanks - PP current Brent parent here and this matches with what I've heard from 4th grade families as well. Assignments are the same, and obviously teachers have to focus on the 4th graders when the goal is to teach to the average. Sad to hear about the staff turnover, too, it must cause burnout. If you look at the astronomical 3rd grade WL offers this year, it's clear families did the math that two years at a swing space made no sense because they had no plans to return for 5th grade even in a new building. It's nuts because you see the increased buy-in to stay through 5th at LT, Maury, Payne, etc. We'd absolutely stay with a traditional 5th grade set-up. Parents with ECE/younger ES kids should make it priority 1,2,3,4 and 5 to get rid of this experiment. It's probably too late for us, but it's worth raising hell about before the school reopens on the Hill.

As long as Brent remains a Jefferson feeder, there probably isn’t much point to “raising hell.” People don’t stay for 5th not just because of the upper school model, but to use 5th to secure a better MS plan as well. Better use of resources to raise hell for a better feeder pattern although that would be a real uphill battle.

I would flip the usual framing a bit-as long as a large proportion of Brent families aren’t willing to send their kids to Jefferson, they’re undermining their own school by not having enough 5th grade students to make that experience better for those who stay. Brent has historically had the lowest MS buy-in of any Hill feeder. In contrast, Maury has been sending a growing cohort to EH and Jefferson is increasingly attracting families from the other three feeder schools, including UMC families.

By continuing on to Jefferson, they could help build a more integrated middle school, strengthen the 5th grade, and keep a stronger community feel by not having all their kids scatter in so many different directions.

Oh come on. Sending your kid to Jefferson is a very high price to pay for the *possibility* of a slightly less inadequate 5th grade experience. This "framing" doesn't work at all. It isn't worth it. Brent needs to get its act together, provide a 5th grade experience that is academically and developmentally appropriate for all its students, and then maybe things could change. Trying to talk people into accepting inadequacy is never going to work.

Sincerely, a long time PTO leader at a Title I elementary.

My point is that having a larger and more bought-in 5th grade would help with advocating for changes to the US model, or perhaps if there were enough kids, they wouldn’t have a need for it anymore. But it’s hard to build that larger cohort when Jefferson is a non-starter for so many families, which I don’t think it should be.

If primary driver of a good school is getting a good cohort then you need structural changes to get that at Jefferson and other low testing DCPS middle schools. You could pull back on charters, don't allow students to lottery from OOB into good WOTP schools, or create a gifted tracks/language immersion tracks students can test into (effectively competing with the charters).

[Anonymous]

Jefferson is fine. But it is also possible to return for 5th grade and then lottery for Hardy, SH, EH, go private, move, whatever. The US model has been losing lots of students to Basis and some students to options like 5th grade at Ludlow and leaving the system after 4th grade who might have under other circumstances been more willing to stay through 5th.

[Anonymous]

If you look at Edscape, from SY 23-24, out of about 69 kids 24 of the 4th grade class stayed at Brent. 19 were "Not in Audit" which means private or another state. Others went to Latins, BASIS, and Friendship online.

Of the 5th grade class, 12 Not in Audit, and less than 10 each to Brookland, CHML, Deal, SH, DCI, and Jefferson.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you look at Edscape, from SY 23-24, out of about 69 kids 24 of the 4th grade class stayed at Brent. 19 were "Not in Audit" which means private or another state. Others went to Latins, BASIS, and Friendship online.

Of the 5th grade class, 12 Not in Audit, and less than 10 each to Brookland, CHML, Deal, SH, DCI, and Jefferson.

They are only retaining ONE-THIRD of their class??? That is INSANE. How can any administrator look at that and think the US experiment is a success? 5th is not an entry year in the close-in) burbs or local privates -- in both cases, 6th is the more natural transition year. For the kids who went to BASIS or Latins, I'm sure there was nothing to be done; but for kids who moved/went private/went to any other school not starting in 6th? That's is almost certainly due to the US model and associated exodus in 95% of cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson is fine. But it is also possible to return for 5th grade and then lottery for Hardy, SH, EH, go private, move, whatever. The US model has been losing lots of students to Basis and some students to options like 5th grade at Ludlow and leaving the system after 4th grade who might have under other circumstances been more willing to stay through 5th.

This basically describes my family. SH and EH had 50-55 lottery spots each last year. And there are a decent number of students at Brent who are already IB for one of them and are at Brent via proximity preference or other in the lottery. Jefferson would be a last result for us primarily due to logistics - there's no great public transport from where we are on the Hill, parents both work in opposite directions of SW, and the bike route to there isn't something we'd let a 6th grader do. SH on the other hand would be very easy for us and has a lot of the extracurriculars that appeal to our kid. We'd strongly consider Brent -> SH, but the US model is forcing us to look at the charters that start at 5th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at Edscape, from SY 23-24, out of about 69 kids 24 of the 4th grade class stayed at Brent. 19 were "Not in Audit" which means private or another state. Others went to Latins, BASIS, and Friendship online.

Of the 5th grade class, 12 Not in Audit, and less than 10 each to Brookland, CHML, Deal, SH, DCI, and Jefferson.

They are only retaining ONE-THIRD of their class??? That is INSANE. How can any administrator look at that and think the US experiment is a success? 5th is not an entry year in the close-in) burbs or local privates -- in both cases, 6th is the more natural transition year. For the kids who went to BASIS or Latins, I'm sure there was nothing to be done; but for kids who moved/went private/went to any other school not starting in 6th? That's is almost certainly due to the US model and associated exodus in 95% of cases.

They always had an exodus before 5th because of Jefferson and kids leaving for the charters. That's why they started the US model. People panic and take whatever charter spot they can get, not because of Brent, but because of the MS/HS question. If Brent fed into SH or EH this wouldn't nearly be the same issue, though all of those families still have to deal with the HS question eventually.

[Anonymous]

Agree. If Brent fed into SH, a significantly larger number of 5th graders would be retained year to year and US would be off the table. US is primarily the result of fluctuating 5th grade numbers and the need for staffing consistency. Lotterying into SH is by no means a sure thing at this point, and Jefferson is a non starter for most Brent parents for a variety of reasons - with an undesirable commute being a real (but not the only) consideration.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at Edscape, from SY 23-24, out of about 69 kids 24 of the 4th grade class stayed at Brent. 19 were "Not in Audit" which means private or another state. Others went to Latins, BASIS, and Friendship online.

Of the 5th grade class, 12 Not in Audit, and less than 10 each to Brookland, CHML, Deal, SH, DCI, and Jefferson.

They are only retaining ONE-THIRD of their class??? That is INSANE. How can any administrator look at that and think the US experiment is a success? 5th is not an entry year in the close-in) burbs or local privates -- in both cases, 6th is the more natural transition year. For the kids who went to BASIS or Latins, I'm sure there was nothing to be done; but for kids who moved/went private/went to any other school not starting in 6th? That's is almost certainly due to the US model and associated exodus in 95% of cases.

They always had an exodus before 5th because of Jefferson and kids leaving for the charters. That's why they started the US model. People panic and take whatever charter spot they can get, not because of Brent, but because of the MS/HS question. If Brent fed into SH or EH this wouldn't nearly be the same issue, though all of those families still have to deal with the HS question eventually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Agree. If Brent fed into SH, a significantly larger number of 5th graders would be retained year to year and US would be off the table. US is primarily the result of fluctuating 5th grade numbers and the need for staffing consistency. Lotterying into SH is by no means a sure thing at this point, and Jefferson is a non starter for most Brent parents for a variety of reasons - with an undesirable commute being a real (but not the only) consideration.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at Edscape, from SY 23-24, out of about 69 kids 24 of the 4th grade class stayed at Brent. 19 were "Not in Audit" which means private or another state. Others went to Latins, BASIS, and Friendship online.

Of the 5th grade class, 12 Not in Audit, and less than 10 each to Brookland, CHML, Deal, SH, DCI, and Jefferson.

They are only retaining ONE-THIRD of their class??? That is INSANE. How can any administrator look at that and think the US experiment is a success? 5th is not an entry year in the close-in) burbs or local privates -- in both cases, 6th is the more natural transition year. For the kids who went to BASIS or Latins, I'm sure there was nothing to be done; but for kids who moved/went private/went to any other school not starting in 6th? That's is almost certainly due to the US model and associated exodus in 95% of cases.

They always had an exodus before 5th because of Jefferson and kids leaving for the charters. That's why they started the US model. People panic and take whatever charter spot they can get, not because of Brent, but because of the MS/HS question. If Brent fed into SH or EH this wouldn't nearly be the same issue, though all of those families still have to deal with the HS question eventually.

I also agree that SH is an easier sell for Brent families, but it doesn’t feed into SH and nor is it likely to anytime soon, so I think if Brent families want to see change, some portion of them need to be part of the change.

One structural change that is occurring is that DCPS announced a dual language Spanish strand program beginning at Jefferson in SY27-28. That should bring more Chisholm families in. As has been mentioned here and on several threads, there is increasing buy-in to Jefferson from the other feeder schools. A lot of those families seem happy. The transportation isn’t insurmountable (hop on the Metro at Cap South or Eastern Market and off at L’Enfant for example). There are some positive headwinds for the school—it may never be enough for a subset of families, but progress is possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at Edscape, from SY 23-24, out of about 69 kids 24 of the 4th grade class stayed at Brent. 19 were "Not in Audit" which means private or another state. Others went to Latins, BASIS, and Friendship online.

Of the 5th grade class, 12 Not in Audit, and less than 10 each to Brookland, CHML, Deal, SH, DCI, and Jefferson.

They are only retaining ONE-THIRD of their class??? That is INSANE. How can any administrator look at that and think the US experiment is a success? 5th is not an entry year in the close-in) burbs or local privates -- in both cases, 6th is the more natural transition year. For the kids who went to BASIS or Latins, I'm sure there was nothing to be done; but for kids who moved/went private/went to any other school not starting in 6th? That's is almost certainly due to the US model and associated exodus in 95% of cases.

They always had an exodus before 5th because of Jefferson and kids leaving for the charters. That's why they started the US model. People panic and take whatever charter spot they can get, not because of Brent, but because of the MS/HS question. If Brent fed into SH or EH this wouldn't nearly be the same issue, though all of those families still have to deal with the HS question eventually.

Guessing you have a kid in ECE or just beyond. It isn't "eventually". MS is 3 years and you are making a decision about application HS or private early in 8th grade. The moment you begin 6th grade the HS elephant in the room is a constant presence. Even if you buy that Eastern is improving, it isn't going to change dramatically enough for most Hill families in 2 years time. Which is why people peel off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson is fine. But it is also possible to return for 5th grade and then lottery for Hardy, SH, EH, go private, move, whatever. The US model has been losing lots of students to Basis and some students to options like 5th grade at Ludlow and leaving the system after 4th grade who might have under other circumstances been more willing to stay through 5th.

Fine for whom? For my ethnically East Asian kid, who would have been the only Asian in 6th grade? Seriously, I asked. Fine for the Brent families in my kids cohort who tried Jefferson and bailed mid-year in 6th grade because they were unhappy in the program? Come on, not an easy switch to go from Brent demographics to Jefferson demographics and there still aren't definite honors classes at Jefferson in most core subjects.

We were at Brent for a long time, for 3 kids, so I know that Jefferson was much more popular with Brent families pre-Covid than it is now. The biggest cohort of UMC families going from Brent to Jefferson in 2019 was more than double than it was last year. What's happening these days is that Brent families jump on a Stuart Hobson spot, or even go to Eliot Hine, if they strike out in the lotteries for the Latins and Hobson rather than head to Jefferson. Some of the kids who go to Hobson now are the younger sibs of students who went to Jefferson 5 or 6 years ago. It's very hard to lottery into Hardy from Ward 6 now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson is fine. But it is also possible to return for 5th grade and then lottery for Hardy, SH, EH, go private, move, whatever. The US model has been losing lots of students to Basis and some students to options like 5th grade at Ludlow and leaving the system after 4th grade who might have under other circumstances been more willing to stay through 5th.

Fine for whom? For my ethnically East Asian kid, who would have been the only Asian in 6th grade? Seriously, I asked. Fine for the Brent families in my kids cohort who tried Jefferson and bailed mid-year in 6th grade because they were unhappy in the program? Come on, not an easy switch to go from Brent demographics to Jefferson demographics and there still aren't definite honors classes at Jefferson in most core subjects.

We were at Brent for a long time, for 3 kids, so I know that Jefferson was much more popular with Brent families pre-Covid than it is now. The biggest cohort of UMC families going from Brent to Jefferson in 2019 was more than double than it was last year. What's happening these days is that Brent families jump on a Stuart Hobson spot, or even go to Eliot Hine, if they strike out in the lotteries for the Latins and Hobson rather than head to Jefferson. Some of the kids who go to Hobson now are the younger sibs of students who went to Jefferson 5 or 6 years ago. It's very hard to lottery into Hardy from Ward 6 now.

+1. Agree there was a time when Jefferson was considered a real option. But enough people tried it and it didn’t work for them. I don’t think this is about upper school, really, but about what it represents for many people, which is that their kid lost out on the lottery, they don’t have a plan for MS or HS, and lots of their kid’s friends have moved on to something new.

[Anonymous]

the principal presumably doesnt like the uncertainty of how many kids are returning for 5th. the basis waitlist for example moves a lot in august. suddenly after planning for two 5th grade classes, there are only 20-25 returning.

[Anonymous]

Hardy went through half its waitlist this past summer. If a family is open to not just SH but also EH, you are almost guaranteed the later. The families who are in 6th grade at Jefferson this fall mostly affirmatively chose it. No other school has the level of 4th grade attrition that Brent does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the principal presumably doesnt like the uncertainty of how many kids are returning for 5th. the basis waitlist for example moves a lot in august. suddenly after planning for two 5th grade classes, there are only 20-25 returning.

It’s not that the principal “doesn’t like” it - it’s that teaching positions need to be funded and teachers need some degree of job security year to year. It’s kind of a lose-lose situation.