Do your coaches select the divisional events?

[Anonymous]

CSL. Coach picks events. Swimmers don’t get input even those with all star times in all events.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure that was the intent? If this is just your perspective then fine. Kids are very mercurial - I don’t pretend to always know why my own kids do what they do much less they they people’s kids.

Oops. Meant “other people’s”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um, we just had a coach call a parent on our team and ask their kid to step down so another, older, kid could swim an event. No joke.

This same kid was also told he couldn't swim his top preference because the coaches wanted to give the slot to a team rep's kid whose only faster time in the event had resulted in a DQ.....

I'll take things that didn't happen for $200, Alex.

It absolutely happened .... thank God the parent had a backbone, told the coach they need to follow the ladder for this individual event and their child wasn't going to sacrifice their earned slot to make another kid feel better, and then called the other team rep (not the parent of one who would have benefitted) and complained.

All of us are now wondering: is there an official NVSL policy about decisions on divisionals? Could a coach put a slower kid into divisionals in the name of boosting opportunities for all on the team or showing team rep kid they believe in him despite dq?

On our team the coach calls the swimmers over in groups to work down the ladder (example: 9-10 girls, 8u boys, etc).

I heard one of the other girls guilt her friend not to pick an event so that she could swim it. The girl being guilted could have chosen any event for the most part except for one and this 10 year old stood there telling her not to pick her favorite stroke because then she would be sad and couldn’t swim.

I know there’s no perfect system here, but it’s sad to see swimmers get so emotionally invested in something like this that they put themselves over their friends. If there were cut times everyone who qualified could go but yes, then the meet would run way longer!

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

It doesn't make any sense. This must be in NVSL (swimmers pick strokes). In NVSL, swimmers are only allowed 2 strokes, and there are at least two swimmers per stroke per pool. After the all-star swimmer picks her strokes, the second fastest (the one closest to the all-star's time) gets to pick hers, and both (top 2) swimmers compete in the same event.

Are you whining because your kid (#3 or #4 on the ladder) doesn't get to go to divisionals?

[Anonymous]

I think nvsl divisionals is emotionally tough for kids. The same kids who have been at a meets all summer may not get to swim. I’ve heard kids make choices so their friends could swim, and I’ve heard kids hint that they wish so and so would pick something so they could swim.

None of them are being manipulative as much as they are just kids. Every year there are disappointed swimmers (which is fine) and I think for some fast girls (in particular) that can feel like their fault. On our team, the coaches support the kids to choose what is best for themselves, but it’s still a tough process!!

[Anonymous]

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

I recently argued in the "Summer Swim Brings Out the Crazy" thread that a very large percentage of the lineup paranoia expressed in this forum comes from parents who passionately advocate for their kids but do not fully grasp how swimming lineups work. This post is a good example: here we have a parent who is willing to mind read someone else's child, assign a complex and slightly malicious motivation to that child that does not make sense on its own terms, and conjure some sort of vague unfairness out of thin air.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

I recently argued in the "Summer Swim Brings Out the Crazy" thread that a very large percentage of the lineup paranoia expressed in this forum comes from parents who passionately advocate for their kids but do not fully grasp how swimming lineups work. This post is a good example: here we have a parent who is willing to mind read someone else's child, assign a complex and slightly malicious motivation to that child that does not make sense on its own terms, and conjure some sort of vague unfairness out of thin air.


I agree this comment (not yours- but the one you quoted) is either a troll, or a very stressed parent who doesn't really get it. I think there are parents like this in every division, and they often really really think that people are out to get their children. I'm not sure how to help them see reality more clearly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

I recently argued in the "Summer Swim Brings Out the Crazy" thread that a very large percentage of the lineup paranoia expressed in this forum comes from parents who passionately advocate for their kids but do not fully grasp how swimming lineups work. This post is a good example: here we have a parent who is willing to mind read someone else's child, assign a complex and slightly malicious motivation to that child that does not make sense on its own terms, and conjure some sort of vague unfairness out of thin air.


I agree this comment (not yours- but the one you quoted) is either a troll, or a very stressed parent who doesn't really get it. I think there are parents like this in every division, and they often really really think that people are out to get their children. I'm not sure how to help them see reality more clearly.

I think for people new to swimming the objectivity of the results can be difficult. Unlike most team sports where the coach's opinion, who works the hardest, being a team player, etc may come into play for being picked for a special team of some kind, the times are the times. All of the final freestyles in my DD's age group's times are within .2 seconds of each other. That sucks for the third kid who will not swim in divisionals, was there at every practice, swam every A meet, and was "edged out" by the other girl at the last second.. but there is no arguing with the times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um, we just had a coach call a parent on our team and ask their kid to step down so another, older, kid could swim an event. No joke.

This same kid was also told he couldn't swim his top preference because the coaches wanted to give the slot to a team rep's kid whose only faster time in the event had resulted in a DQ.....

I'll take things that didn't happen for $200, Alex.

It absolutely happened .... thank God the parent had a backbone, told the coach they need to follow the ladder for this individual event and their child wasn't going to sacrifice their earned slot to make another kid feel better, and then called the other team rep (not the parent of one who would have benefitted) and complained.

All of us are now wondering: is there an official NVSL policy about decisions on divisionals? Could a coach put a slower kid into divisionals in the name of boosting opportunities for all on the team or showing team rep kid they believe in him despite dq?

On our team the coach calls the swimmers over in groups to work down the ladder (example: 9-10 girls, 8u boys, etc).

I heard one of the other girls guilt her friend not to pick an event so that she could swim it. The girl being guilted could have chosen any event for the most part except for one and this 10 year old stood there telling her not to pick her favorite stroke because then she would be sad and couldn’t swim.

I know there’s no perfect system here, but it’s sad to see swimmers get so emotionally invested in something like this that they put themselves over their friends. If there were cut times everyone who qualified could go but yes, then the meet would run way longer!

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

It doesn't make any sense. This must be in NVSL (swimmers pick strokes). In NVSL, swimmers are only allowed 2 strokes, and there are at least two swimmers per stroke per pool. After the all-star swimmer picks her strokes, the second fastest (the one closest to the all-star's time) gets to pick hers, and both (top 2) swimmers compete in the same event.

Are you whining because your kid (#3 or #4 on the ladder) doesn't get to go to divisionals?

Top team. The top 2-4 all have all star times. They will all go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure that was the intent? If this is just your perspective then fine. Kids are very mercurial - I don’t pretend to always know why my own kids do what they do much less they they people’s kids.

Pretty sure. They picked an event that would not put them on the podium at all stars (they have other events that they definitely would be) but by picking the events they did they can defend the record.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ladder. Fair. Done.

Of course, but when kids are top of ladder in more than the two event max (NVSL), decisions are required. On our team, it’s swimmer’s choice.

Also NVSL and similar. Although sometimes the coach will talk kids, more common with younger kids, into picking something that may not be their first choice but that they are good at and have a better chance of making all stars. For example, top 8U not swimming free because it tends to be very competitive and they have a batter chance of making all stars or placing higher in something else at divisionals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure that was the intent? If this is just your perspective then fine. Kids are very mercurial - I don’t pretend to always know why my own kids do what they do much less they they people’s kids.

Pretty sure. They picked an event that would not put them on the podium at all stars (they have other events that they definitely would be) but by picking the events they did they can defend the record.

That still sounds like an assumption to me. Assuming you're right, why begrudge someone who wants to defend their records?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

I recently argued in the "Summer Swim Brings Out the Crazy" thread that a very large percentage of the lineup paranoia expressed in this forum comes from parents who passionately advocate for their kids but do not fully grasp how swimming lineups work. This post is a good example: here we have a parent who is willing to mind read someone else's child, assign a complex and slightly malicious motivation to that child that does not make sense on its own terms, and conjure some sort of vague unfairness out of thin air.

I agree this comment (not yours- but the one you quoted) is either a troll, or a very stressed parent who doesn't really get it. I think there are parents like this in every division, and they often really really think that people are out to get their children. I'm not sure how to help them see reality more clearly.

I think for people new to swimming the objectivity of the results can be difficult. Unlike most team sports where the coach's opinion, who works the hardest, being a team player, etc may come into play for being picked for a special team of some kind, the times are the times. All of the final freestyles in my DD's age group's times are within .2 seconds of each other. That sucks for the third kid who will not swim in divisionals, was there at every practice, swam every A meet, and was "edged out" by the other girl at the last second.. but there is no arguing with the times.

Totally agree with your last part. My oldest does travel soccer and swims. One of the kids in their swim age group is apparently having a hard time with the fact that another swimmer bumped them out of their spot by having a great race, a couple weeks ago, but hasn’t been able to match that time since then. Our coaches go strictly by the ladder and take the faster time, even if a swimmer is wildly inconsistent. Whereas in team sports evaluation feels a lot more subjective. A kid who plays one great game isn’t necessarily going to win a spot in the starting lineup over a player who is more consistent. Some prefer the black and white nature of swimming, and others prefer team sports where it feels like you get more chances to prove yourself in different ways. I see pros and cons to both and I am glad my child is getting these two different kinds of experiences because I think you learn different things from them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Swimmer's choice (in ladder order) for our team. It takes longer to get done but it is the most fair approach.

We do this too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure that was the intent? If this is just your perspective then fine. Kids are very mercurial - I don’t pretend to always know why my own kids do what they do much less they they people’s kids.

Pretty sure. They picked an event that would not put them on the podium at all stars (they have other events that they definitely would be) but by picking the events they did they can defend the record.

That still sounds like an assumption to me. Assuming you're right, why begrudge someone who wants to defend their records?

My question too. Why is wanting to keep your name on the record board a worse motivation to swim a stroke than wanting to make it to IAS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um, we just had a coach call a parent on our team and ask their kid to step down so another, older, kid could swim an event. No joke.

This same kid was also told he couldn't swim his top preference because the coaches wanted to give the slot to a team rep's kid whose only faster time in the event had resulted in a DQ.....

I'll take things that didn't happen for $200, Alex.

It absolutely happened .... thank God the parent had a backbone, told the coach they need to follow the ladder for this individual event and their child wasn't going to sacrifice their earned slot to make another kid feel better, and then called the other team rep (not the parent of one who would have benefitted) and complained.

All of us are now wondering: is there an official NVSL policy about decisions on divisionals? Could a coach put a slower kid into divisionals in the name of boosting opportunities for all on the team or showing team rep kid they believe in him despite dq?

On our team the coach calls the swimmers over in groups to work down the ladder (example: 9-10 girls, 8u boys, etc).

I heard one of the other girls guilt her friend not to pick an event so that she could swim it. The girl being guilted could have chosen any event for the most part except for one and this 10 year old stood there telling her not to pick her favorite stroke because then she would be sad and couldn’t swim.

I know there’s no perfect system here, but it’s sad to see swimmers get so emotionally invested in something like this that they put themselves over their friends. If there were cut times everyone who qualified could go but yes, then the meet would run way longer!

On the flip side of that coin we have a swimmer who is all star in almost all strokes but picked events to knock out the kids that were closest in her times and most likely to break her records.

It doesn't make any sense. This must be in NVSL (swimmers pick strokes). In NVSL, swimmers are only allowed 2 strokes, and there are at least two swimmers per stroke per pool. After the all-star swimmer picks her strokes, the second fastest (the one closest to the all-star's time) gets to pick hers, and both (top 2) swimmers compete in the same event.

Are you whining because your kid (#3 or #4 on the ladder) doesn't get to go to divisionals?

Top team. The top 2-4 all have all star times. They will all go.

Is it the reason there were 15 entries (instead of regular 12) in 2024 Division 1 Girls 15-18 IM, with 4 from OKM and 4 from Tuckahoe?
The extra slots due to their all-star times?