Question About DCPS And Elementary School Ratings

[Anonymous]

9:40, I think you are right that this isn't simply an east of the park issue. I remember touring Hyde a few years ago and it was clear that the population shifted to out of boundary children starting in third grade.

The thing is, how does a steady diet 4 DC-BAS tests, a DC-CAS, and lots of DIBELS testing entice parents to stick with their neighborhood school?

I see Rhee bending over backwards to bring middle class families into Ward 6 schools. While she's done a great job filling those PS3 and PK4 classrooms with children who are likely to score well on a standardized test, I'm not sure that anyone has noticed that those same children don't stick around long enough to be tested.

If headquarters has noticed, they haven't figured out how to retain these families.

[Anonymous]

OP here:

Wow. This has to be the most informative, reasonable thread in the history of DCUM.

Thanks to everyone who participated...

[Anonymous]

I do think more middle class families are going to stay at Brent and Maury in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grades. They will lose some families. Three years ago when I was going to the open houses Maury was a good school which served African American families. There were honestly maybe 3 white kids in the whole school. PreS and PreK are now extremely diverse and there are many middle/upper middle class families- I think atleast 25-50% of these families will stay. On a similar note, maybe I'm a delusional Polly-Anna, but I think that Brent will keep half of its rising first graders through 5th. So many of these kids walk to school with their parents. Some parents are volunteering 10-15 hours a week. Brent has PTA meetings with 50-75 parents in attendance. These schools both have a lot of excellent teachers. The test scores are going to go up because essentially the schools are going to be testing completely different populations in a few years. I think Brent's will go up in school year 2010-2011; I think Maury's will go up in 2012-2013. The middle school question is really out there because Elliot Hine and Jefferson really need to improve and Jefferson is miles away from the Hill. I don't see many families trecking over there to go to a mediocre middle school.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the input 10:20. The principals at both Brent and Maury seem well-liked by parents.

A genuine question for Brent and Maury parents, will your leadership get a pass on test scores until the inboundary children are taking the tests? (Even at Brent it's still 3 more years until the testing grades are dominated by middle/upper middle class children.)

Or do you think Rhee will fire them like so many of the principals at her other schools, which are not gentrifying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing is, how does a steady diet 4 DC-BAS tests, a DC-CAS, and lots of DIBELS testing entice parents to stick with their neighborhood school?

It doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:9:40, I think you are right that this isn't simply an east of the park issue. I remember touring Hyde a few years ago and it was clear that the population shifted to out of boundary children starting in third grade.

The thing is, how does a steady diet 4 DC-BAS tests, a DC-CAS, and lots of DIBELS testing entice parents to stick with their neighborhood school?

I see Rhee bending over backwards to bring middle class families into Ward 6 schools. While she's done a great job filling those PS3 and PK4 classrooms with children who are likely to score well on a standardized test, I'm not sure that anyone has noticed that those same children don't stick around long enough to be tested.

If headquarters has noticed, they haven't figured out how to retain these families.

But here's the thing about Hyde -- My dd graduated from Hyde about 7 or 8 years ago. I perused the school directory at some point and it's true that by the time you hit 4th and 5th grade there were hardly any kids who lived in the 2007 zipcode. But the 5th grade teacher was hands down a top teacher (one of the best she ever had) and gave my daughter a wonderful year. Plus the class was about 40% white, 40% black, and the rest Latino and Asian and, while I don't have the figures to confirm this, the majority of the kids appeared to be solidly middle and upper middle class. You have to be careful about judging a school based on out-of-boundary population. The situation at Hyde when dd was there was not similar at all to what pps are saying is occurring at Maury.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't mean to pour gas on the flames but I think it also has to do with people who live in Brookland (lovely neighhborhood) vs. Capitol Hill (adults heavily invested in living in the neighborhood as part of their identity). In my experience knowing several families that lived in both places, families in Brookland were more likely to head to NW, Arlington or Silver Spring before kids were school age vs. families on the Hill really didn't want to give up a certain lifestyle and more desperately wanted to make it work. It also shows how much "reputation" has to do with boosterism vs. actual data.

I don't understand your analogy. Noyes elementary ES is located in the heart of Brookland. The test scores are 85% or better. All the parents are not moving to NW, Arlington and SS. Noyes is a PS-8 and the neighborhood is fighting city hall and DCPS to create a MS for the Brookland/Woodridge children. I think that if their efforts fail, eventually they will pull up stakes and move or jump to private. But for right now, the fight is on and the parents in Brookland/Woodridge also desperately want to make it work. I don't think you have lived in Brookland, otherwise you would know that we are also heavily invested in our neighborhood and our children's education.

[Anonymous]

I -think- what PP1 was saying is that quite apart from elementary education, Cap Hill parents are more incentivized to stay living on the Hill for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with teachers or test scores. Maybe they walk to work in the Hart bldg., etc. Maybe Dad is a neo-Green person who is proud to bike to work at the Supreme Ct. I've seen these kinds of forces, anyway.

Don't mean to pour gas on the flames but I think it also has to do with people who live in Brookland (lovely neighhborhood) vs. Capitol Hill (adults heavily invested in living in the neighborhood as part of their identity). In my experience knowing several families that lived in both places, families in Brookland were more likely to head to NW, Arlington or Silver Spring before kids were school age vs. families on the Hill really didn't want to give up a certain lifestyle and more desperately wanted to make it work. It also shows how much "reputation" has to do with boosterism vs. actual data.

I don't understand your analogy. Noyes elementary ES is located in the heart of Brookland. The test scores are 85% or better. All the parents are not moving to NW, Arlington and SS. Noyes is a PS-8 and the neighborhood is fighting city hall and DCPS to create a MS for the Brookland/Woodridge children. I think that if their efforts fail, eventually they will pull up stakes and move or jump to private. But for right now, the fight is on and the parents in Brookland/Woodridge also desperately want to make it work. I don't think you have lived in Brookland, otherwise you would know that we are also heavily invested in our neighborhood and our children's education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do think more middle class families are going to stay at Brent and Maury in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grades. They will lose some families. Three years ago when I was going to the open houses Maury was a good school which served African American families. There were honestly maybe 3 white kids in the whole school. PreS and PreK are now extremely diverse and there are many middle/upper middle class families- I think atleast 25-50% of these families will stay. On a similar note, maybe I'm a delusional Polly-Anna, but I think that Brent will keep half of its rising first graders through 5th. So many of these kids walk to school with their parents.

Re 11:36's post, I am a Brooklander, and I tend to agree with him/her. There is a very strong sense of community in Brookland and people with families are tending to stay, not pull up stakes. Families in Brookland not only like the strong community but also the single family homes w/ a backyard within walking distance of Red Line metro, for prices well under a $1MM. So the question is, why isn't what is happening at Maury (as quoted poster mentions) happening at Noyes (which already has good test scores), in terms of student populace? Easily 80% of the kids I see in Brookland (say within 3/4 miles of the Metro) are white. But no white (or Asian) families are "taking the leap" (so far) and sending their kids to Noyes. Is it just because recent entering preschoolers/preKers have been able to get in to Yu Ying or Stokes (as PP posits)? This will be less likely to continue as Yu Ying and Stokes are likely to increase in popularity (Yu Ying didn't have a lottery its first year, if I understand correctly).

I agree with OP that this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on DCUM! Let's keep the good conversation going.

x-posting with 11:46. What I'm saying above is that Brooklanders also have a lot of reasons beyond education to stay in Brookland. Why else would they be staying without sending their kids to the neighborhood schools?

[Anonymous]

Double posting: Sorry, meant to qualify I'm talking about the demographics of the kids in Brookland that I see who are 5 and younger. Older kids are much more likely to be African Americans (though I do know white teenagers in the neighborhood as well).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the input 10:20. The principals at both Brent and Maury seem well-liked by parents.

A genuine question for Brent and Maury parents, will your leadership get a pass on test scores until the inboundary children are taking the tests? (Even at Brent it's still 3 more years until the testing grades are dominated by middle/upper middle class children.)

Or do you think Rhee will fire them like so many of the principals at her other schools, which are not gentrifying.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Brent & Maury are already largely inboundary. The dynamic here is much more subtle than "OOB students bring down the test scores". Like the 06:43 post describes, it's a matter of the wealthier and middle-class families slowly but consistently draining away from the system.

I think there's a vicious cycle element too to the testing. I believe that Rhee's directive is to raise the DC-CAS scores with the hope that it will keep these families in the system. And the goal certainly has merit, I don't think she's entirely wrong here. The irony is that in order to raise those scores, there's a negative culture of stress around drilling for the test. It eliminate spontaneous and creative opportunities in the classroom. It eliminates art and language and other enrichment. Most of these families are not actually worried that their own children can't pass the test. They're worried that the fact that so many of their children's peers can't score well, means that the curriculum is lifeless and school isn't the exciting and expansive opportunity that they want for their children.

It's not enough to raise DC-CAS scores, there needs to be a compelling educational reason to stay in school beyond simple test numbers. Drilling & killing is the exact opposite of what entices parents who want that.

[Anonymous]

I believe Brent and Maury are inboundary at the lower grades, but the upper grades, 3rd-5th, are the ones that take the DC-CAS. Hence the very low reading scores at Brent and the very low math scores at Maury.

"Inboundary" of course being a euphemism for affluent children of highly-educated parents who are invested in education and have the means to support their goals AND will leave the system if they believe their child's education is not up to snuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the input 10:20. The principals at both Brent and Maury seem well-liked by parents.

A genuine question for Brent and Maury parents, will your leadership get a pass on test scores until the inboundary children are taking the tests? (Even at Brent it's still 3 more years until the testing grades are dominated by middle/upper middle class children.)

Or do you think Rhee will fire them like so many of the principals at her other schools, which are not gentrifying.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Brent & Maury are already largely inboundary. The dynamic here is much more subtle than "OOB students bring down the test scores". Like the 06:43 post describes, it's a matter of the wealthier and middle-class families slowly but consistently draining away from the system.

I think there's a vicious cycle element too to the testing. I believe that Rhee's directive is to raise the DC-CAS scores with the hope that it will keep these families in the system. And the goal certainly has merit, I don't think she's entirely wrong here. The irony is that in order to raise those scores, there's a negative culture of stress around drilling for the test. It eliminate spontaneous and creative opportunities in the classroom. It eliminates art and language and other enrichment. Most of these families are not actually worried that their own children can't pass the test. They're worried that the fact that so many of their children's peers can't score well, means that the curriculum is lifeless and school isn't the exciting and expansive opportunity that they want for their children.

It's not enough to raise DC-CAS scores, there needs to be a compelling educational reason to stay in school beyond simple test numbers. Drilling & killing is the exact opposite of what entices parents who want that.

Re Brent and OOB vs. in, I think it depends on the grade-level. Incoming PS and rising PKers are almost all in-boundary. Older grades have significant OOB (which is not an proxy for "disadvantaged"!).

Agree with what you say about the viscous cycle re test scores and Rhee missing the boat in terms of what is important to middle class parents. My kid will likely pass the test no matter what kind of education he receives, by virtue of being from a two-parent, middle class home (parents with master's degrees) and being read to every day since he was a baby (statistics show this kind of thing is what is most importance in determining a student's success in school). So I would like my kid to be actively challenged and learning at school, not just meeting some test's minimum standard.

[Anonymous]

Thank you 12:34. Although my point is still the same. Maury & Brent parents, what do you think? Is raising the test scores enough for you? Or if drill & kill is required to raise the scores, then isn't it counter-productive if this comes at the expense of a creative, enriching classroom experience?

My guess is that you're not worried that your own child can't pass the test. You're worried that if too many of your children's peers can't pass the test, the ramifications of this will eventually provoke you to withdraw. Is that a fair statement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the input 10:20. The principals at both Brent and Maury seem well-liked by parents.

A genuine question for Brent and Maury parents, will your leadership get a pass on test scores until the inboundary children are taking the tests? (Even at Brent it's still 3 more years until the testing grades are dominated by middle/upper middle class children.)

Or do you think Rhee will fire them like so many of the principals at her other schools, which are not gentrifying.

The Brent Principal, Dr. Wilhoyte, is very popular with both the Brent parents and Rhee. I don't think Wilhoyte is in danger of losing her job, but she's old and her husband just won the lottery so I think she'll retire soon. I'm not worried for Brent- I think the school can find someone else just as good or better. I think Brent's strength is from great teachers- both veteran teachers and young energized grads from liberal arts colleges, and from the community. I think the rising 3rd grade class has a good amount of in boundary and other middle class kids. 2nd grade has more. By preK and preS, its 95% in boundary, 85% middle class. These are my guesses. I don't know how secure Maury's principal is. She seems to be both experienced and popular.