Is 'job-hopping' really that bad if I continue to receive promotions & raises?

[Anonymous]

You may find jobs, but are those employers worth considering? An employer who cares about investing in its employees and developing talent will be turned off by your resume because you have a history of leaving right around the time you’ve gotten up the steepest part of the learning curve and the employer can expect you to start really producing. The employer who isn’t concern about your job hopping is more likely used to short tenures because they’ve pure churn and burn shops.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about people who can’t ever get promoted at current jobs hopping?

Often at companies you see a CEO and Heads of Risk, Audit, Legal, HR report in to CEO. None are qualified to be CEO so no promotion opportunity. Plus with Reorgs, mergers, new CEOs or layoffs as they are highly paid they are in firing line.

Pretty much only way up start small company and work your way to big companies.

It is pretty common. Plus stay too long also looks bad.

In this job market I say hop as next recession no hopping to be done.

Some jobs are switch and bait. My precious job was supposed to be a business role, but every 6 month, my managers will change my goals - sometimes a project manager, later on he wanted me to be a python engineer. There is no one anyone can deliver in this environment - poor job fit, skill misalignment, and the only thing you will get at end of your “tenaure” is battered self esteem.

You will be surprised how many teams out there that does this.

Yea, but employees look for the ability to demonstrate you can power through that. Maybe one time you can leave within a year, but usually multiple occurrences point to you (or at least your ability to assess fit in the interview process). Looks like you are making blinded decisions based on money. Not a good look when competing against other candidates in a tight market.

[Anonymous]

I’m in software and about to change jobs for the third time in 3.5 years. I literally brought this up to the recruiter that I’m not excited about changing jobs because I don’t want to be seen as a job hopper. His response was, we don’t even think about that, as we pay more then everyone else, so we don’t concern ourselves with that. They are right. They only people
Complaining are companies that refuse to pay their current staff market rates or those that can’t land the high paying jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about people who can’t ever get promoted at current jobs hopping?

Often at companies you see a CEO and Heads of Risk, Audit, Legal, HR report in to CEO. None are qualified to be CEO so no promotion opportunity. Plus with Reorgs, mergers, new CEOs or layoffs as they are highly paid they are in firing line.

Pretty much only way up start small company and work your way to big companies.

It is pretty common. Plus stay too long also looks bad.

In this job market I say hop as next recession no hopping to be done.

Some jobs are switch and bait. My precious job was supposed to be a business role, but every 6 month, my managers will change my goals - sometimes a project manager, later on he wanted me to be a python engineer. There is no one anyone can deliver in this environment - poor job fit, skill misalignment, and the only thing you will get at end of your “tenaure” is battered self esteem.

You will be surprised how many teams out there that does this.

Yea, but employees look for the ability to demonstrate you can power through that. Maybe one time you can leave within a year, but usually multiple occurrences point to you (or at least your ability to assess fit in the interview process). Looks like you are making blinded decisions based on money. Not a good look when competing against other candidates in a tight market.

People with top pedigree, had good luck to land in great teams or have options will have the chance to “access job fit”, for many, we only have 1 offer. It’s not great, but still beats staying in a poor fit environment being unhappy both in and outside of work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m in software and about to change jobs for the third time in 3.5 years. I literally brought this up to the recruiter that I’m not excited about changing jobs because I don’t want to be seen as a job hopper. His response was, we don’t even think about that, as we pay more then everyone else, so we don’t concern ourselves with that. They are right. They only people
Complaining are companies that refuse to pay their current staff market rates or those that can’t land the high paying jobs.

As a recruiter, I am confirming what was said before about scarcity. It IT roles ever dry up (more qualified folks than positions), then this will change. But, ride the way for now!

[Anonymous]

It really depends. I'm assuming you started in 2018 on the Hill straight out of school? I think moving around when you're younger is more common. At some point, people will wonder if you've never spent a significant amount of time with an employer...but I'm an exec who has moved around more than traditional wisdom would say is right. If you can point to actual accomplishments and have good reasons for the changes you've made, then you will be fine.

You will probably be asked, though, about your job hopping and whether you expect to make a longer term commitment to the job you are seeking. You should always turn this around into a positive statement about what you are looking for in your job...and never make it about you. Do it politely without trashing your former employer, but make it about them. For example, "They hadn't made a strong commitment to the new field I work in, and I want to go somewhere where it's a top priority."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

[Anonymous]

Keep riding the wave, you are doing it right for the current environment which is high growth.

The only risk is during a recession if you get laid off. Your resume won’t look so great and you will likely need to take a step back. I like to see at least an internal promotion or two for my senior people. It’s a big warning to me when someone has moved up over a decade a two but none of it is internal. You are only 2 years in, so no issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

You sound like my CIO, and his team has precisely 2 openings in the last decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

I actually would not be thrilled working for you. Many issues about last company are things you think are perks. I hate unlimited time off, folks setting own hours, unlimited WFH and the bullshit of full autonomy.

I had that set up and was a nightmare. Work becomes 24/7, always chasing people, boss gives autonomy so you do all it by your self no direction so boss can take credit of good or blame you if bad. And nonsense about I pay well heard it before.

My best job I loved I had 11 years. Zero WFH. No flex time, all same hours, CEO door always open. Not a meeting driven company. We also really worked no OT. We were very efficient. With entire company in office 9-5 and all vacations prebooked on a schedule we ran like clockwork. No wasted time chasing people, Zoom, waiting for responses. And folks with kids loved it. No Ot, no after hours emails. Steady. Sadly we made record money and got bought out.

I loved it. The shit show of everyone goes their own way sounds good. But in reality I got my thumb up
My ass waiting on folks wasting so much time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

Unlimited time off means nothing for most especially if they cannot take if off. Bottomline is it comes down to salary and most people will go to the highest bidder. Especially in IT. Perks like working at home are the norm now. Perks like flexible hours are the norm. The only way to get ahead in IT is to job jump both for salary and title.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Am I reading correctly that you intend for your working life to be about 13 years in total? Good luck with that.

OP here:
I moved to DC in 2018, that isn't the totality of my work.

& yes, it isn't going to be very difficult to retire in 10 years. I save roughly 75k/year between my current income and my side gigs. Thank you for your concern

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

I actually would not be thrilled working for you. Many issues about last company are things you think are perks. I hate unlimited time off, folks setting own hours, unlimited WFH and the bullshit of full autonomy.

I had that set up and was a nightmare. Work becomes 24/7, always chasing people, boss gives autonomy so you do all it by your self no direction so boss can take credit of good or blame you if bad. And nonsense about I pay well heard it before.

My best job I loved I had 11 years. Zero WFH. No flex time, all same hours, CEO door always open. Not a meeting driven company. We also really worked no OT. We were very efficient. With entire company in office 9-5 and all vacations prebooked on a schedule we ran like clockwork. No wasted time chasing people, Zoom, waiting for responses. And folks with kids loved it. No Ot, no after hours emails. Steady. Sadly we made record money and got bought out.

I loved it. The shit show of everyone goes their own way sounds good. But in reality I got my thumb up
My ass waiting on folks wasting so much time

My spouse has tons of leave. He can never use it. And, those after hours calls turn into all night and weekend work. I'd rather have less pay and not have a boss who is like that too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

I actually would not be thrilled working for you. Many issues about last company are things you think are perks. I hate unlimited time off, folks setting own hours, unlimited WFH and the bullshit of full autonomy.

I had that set up and was a nightmare. Work becomes 24/7, always chasing people, boss gives autonomy so you do all it by your self no direction so boss can take credit of good or blame you if bad. And nonsense about I pay well heard it before.

My best job I loved I had 11 years. Zero WFH. No flex time, all same hours, CEO door always open. Not a meeting driven company. We also really worked no OT. We were very efficient. With entire company in office 9-5 and all vacations prebooked on a schedule we ran like clockwork. No wasted time chasing people, Zoom, waiting for responses. And folks with kids loved it. No Ot, no after hours emails. Steady. Sadly we made record money and got bought out.

I loved it. The shit show of everyone goes their own way sounds good. But in reality I got my thumb up
My ass waiting on folks wasting so much time

I hear you. I don’t doubt that there are many companies where these perks are BS. It really comes down to the manager and how honest he or she is. It’s about setting reasonable boundaries, and about doing what you’d want for yourself for your team. Most any decision, when made through that lens, can be made “good” for people. For what k describe to work you need trust and honesty; giving autonomy without direction and leaving folks rudderless is a bait and switch, offering unlimited time off and then not letting people take it is dishonest, telling people you occasionally need help after hours and then making it 24/7 on call is dishonest. I strive for transparency and fairness, and I make sure the team sees I’m in it with them. If something happens that means we have to work late one night, I’m there doing it too. If someone on my team does good work, i invite them to the senior leadership meeting to present it. You do the work, you get the credit. If I take time off, I ask my team to as well. Etc.

Last year I spent a month and a half in Hawaii. I worked a bit but I was mostly on/off parts of the day. The time difference was a bit wonky, but the flip side was lots of free afternoons. A team member asked me if they could do the same from Miami to be near family. I said sure. They were there for four months. Another team member asked me if we could work out a plan where they could flex hours so they could ski mornings for a few hours as they had a friend with a house in Tahoe. I said sure. I think they were there for about a month. Another one told me that they didn’t feel comfortable hiring a nanny with covid and could they break off at 3pm to take care of kids? Sure.

And here’s the important critical bit: you don’t count the hours and make people make them up. Why? Cause we are all adults. It’s about performance not butt-in-seat hours. In fact, during performance evals I’ve seen people get worse reviews because they work too much (ie a task shouldn’t take that long). What I’ve seen in my years is that this dynamic works very well for those are confident and high performing, works poorly for those who are not.

But I think you raise a fair point. It does mean sometimes you have to wait a little extra for someone to get back to you. Maybe it does sort of bleed work into longer hours as people chose to work when it suits them. Personally, a 9-5pm in person, zero flexibility micromanaged job sounds nightmarishly unpleasant, and id take the breakfast on the lanai with my laptop while I watch my kids run into the ocean option. And that’s the team and vision I’ve built for myself and my staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It will bite you when it becomes excessive. Eventually, companies won’t hire you when you become a serial job hopper, or at least a lot of doors will close.

I wouldn’t give you a chance at my firm. 4 jobs in 3 years? I’d assume you got let go.

Definitely my fear. When i interviewed with my current company they didn't even bring it up as a negative in the interview. It was more like 'wow you've had a lot of really good experiences across the industry' and that was the extent of it.

I would not want to work for a close minded person who would not give a chance. Sounds old fashioned to me. I agree that all the jobs give you a wide range of experience. You see what is done with competitors, different industries and so on. I see it no differently than a business with their constant laying off of people, merges, acquisitions, retirement buyouts. Well, an employee can “lay off” an employer. Why not?

I worked for a place that laid people off in 2-3 rounds. I was round 2. Then they hired a bunch back. They fired all those people to make their reports look better to a buyer. Where is the loyalty to the humans they employed?

You’ll be fine, OP.

Those who fear a recession probably live above their means or paycheck to paycheck. Save for a rainy say. Make hay while the sun shines.

I’m the guy who said I wouldn’t give him a chance. It’s not old fashioned, I get people leave jobs for a lot of reasons but there’s really not a ton of good ones after a long string of them, so why take the risk? Maybe the guy got unlucky and picked a dud? Sure. But not 4 in a row. Its likely that he probably got pushed out of at least one, if not two. And if so, why? I can hire anyone I want because I pay top dollar, why even take the risk on someone who either is actually a low performer and can’t last at a company, or has a real attitude problem and cuts and runs the second they have to roll up their sleeves, or just doesn’t give a crap about his boss and his company and will immediately leave as soon as I’ve trained them?

I pay my team very well. I give them unlimited time off and I encourage them to take it. I let them set their own hours. I let them work remotely. They have full autonomy and trust. In return I expect two things: one, never let me get surprised by something in front of my boss. We need honesty and trust or it won’t work. Two, I expect you to do your job and do it really well. Do that, and I’ll shower you with money and praise.

I have the lowest turnover of any group at my company. No one leaves. Because I go to the matt for the team. I protect, I elevate and I reward.

But a guy who just leaves for the next thing as fast as possible? Meh. That’s not who I need on my team. I need the guy (or gal) who will accept that, hey, maybe, sometimes, I gotta call you on Sunday. And I need that person not to throw a hissy fit if I need 15 minutes of help. And the flipside is, 3 or 4 years with me and I’ll help you land a high 6 maybe even 7 figure job. But I want people who are in it with me, not those looking to get a pound of flesh, stir the pot and run for the nearest exit.

Someone who job hops has greater risk of being the latter. There’s no upside for me to taking that risk, only downside.

I actually would not be thrilled working for you. Many issues about last company are things you think are perks. I hate unlimited time off, folks setting own hours, unlimited WFH and the bullshit of full autonomy.

I had that set up and was a nightmare. Work becomes 24/7, always chasing people, boss gives autonomy so you do all it by your self no direction so boss can take credit of good or blame you if bad. And nonsense about I pay well heard it before.

My best job I loved I had 11 years. Zero WFH. No flex time, all same hours, CEO door always open. Not a meeting driven company. We also really worked no OT. We were very efficient. With entire company in office 9-5 and all vacations prebooked on a schedule we ran like clockwork. No wasted time chasing people, Zoom, waiting for responses. And folks with kids loved it. No Ot, no after hours emails. Steady. Sadly we made record money and got bought out.

I loved it. The shit show of everyone goes their own way sounds good. But in reality I got my thumb up
My ass waiting on folks wasting so much time

I hear you. I don’t doubt that there are many companies where these perks are BS. It really comes down to the manager and how honest he or she is. It’s about setting reasonable boundaries, and about doing what you’d want for yourself for your team. Most any decision, when made through that lens, can be made “good” for people. For what k describe to work you need trust and honesty; giving autonomy without direction and leaving folks rudderless is a bait and switch, offering unlimited time off and then not letting people take it is dishonest, telling people you occasionally need help after hours and then making it 24/7 on call is dishonest. I strive for transparency and fairness, and I make sure the team sees I’m in it with them. If something happens that means we have to work late one night, I’m there doing it too. If someone on my team does good work, i invite them to the senior leadership meeting to present it. You do the work, you get the credit. If I take time off, I ask my team to as well. Etc.

Last year I spent a month and a half in Hawaii. I worked a bit but I was mostly on/off parts of the day. The time difference was a bit wonky, but the flip side was lots of free afternoons. A team member asked me if they could do the same from Miami to be near family. I said sure. They were there for four months. Another team member asked me if we could work out a plan where they could flex hours so they could ski mornings for a few hours as they had a friend with a house in Tahoe. I said sure. I think they were there for about a month. Another one told me that they didn’t feel comfortable hiring a nanny with covid and could they break off at 3pm to take care of kids? Sure.

And here’s the important critical bit: you don’t count the hours and make people make them up. Why? Cause we are all adults. It’s about performance not butt-in-seat hours. In fact, during performance evals I’ve seen people get worse reviews because they work too much (ie a task shouldn’t take that long). What I’ve seen in my years is that this dynamic works very well for those are confident and high performing, works poorly for those who are not.

But I think you raise a fair point. It does mean sometimes you have to wait a little extra for someone to get back to you. Maybe it does sort of bleed work into longer hours as people chose to work when it suits them. Personally, a 9-5pm in person, zero flexibility micromanaged job sounds nightmarishly unpleasant, and id take the breakfast on the lanai with my laptop while I watch my kids run into the ocean option. And that’s the team and vision I’ve built for myself and my staff.

A good boss is not on vacation that long.