Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
Perhaps rare at your school. It is common in wealthy district like mine. On many occasions, I've taken my kid to a Jan/Feb/Mar/Apr birthday party and then been informed "Caleb is turning SEVEN and I'm not even six yet." It's not a rare occasion and none of these kids have the kind of "profound disabilities" that would merit redshirting. If they have delays or disabilities, they are invisible to other kids or adults, and I suspect could have been handled with sped pullouts and the normal approach to helping children with delays catch up to peers.
If anything, redshirting can delay interventions for kids who need them. Our school does mandatory dyslexia screening in 1st grade, for instance. But these redshirted children get that screening a full year later than they would if they'd gone on time. There are other sped interventions that kids don't get access to until they enroll in elementary, so the idea that sped kids do better with redshirting is suspect -- there are many reasons to believe that enrolling on time would help with early intervention.
But I don't think these are sped kids. I think they are normal kids but have parents who want/need them to be "above average" so they went shopping for an average they could be above.
Maybe their delays or disabilities are not noticeable to you because they were held back a year?
My son will be 5 in March and in pre-K now. He has a genetic mutation that is linked to developmental delays, but it is not physically obvious to other people. He struggles in pre-K and is about a year behind his peers. He has always been delayed in regards to walking, talking, fine motor skills, etc.
I can either watch him continuously struggle to catch up to his peers, or I can keep in pre-K an extra year.
In either case, I don't need the judgement of other parents. Just trying to do the best for him.
Anonymous wrote:God people who redshirt their kids are such losers. Don't you remember when you were in school and there was that one weird kid that was older than everyone else in the grade? Now it's your kid.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
You sent a 4 year old to kindergarten?
Why not? My kid turned 5 last January. Her K class has had 3 birthday parties so far for kids who turned 5 in August or September. Sending a kid with a late summer/early fall birthday is expected and there’s nothing wrong with a kid finishing K at 5.
I finished k at 5. I was also skipped up to 6th at the start of 5th. I don’t recall age being an issue at any point. I was just bored as hell. Then my parents decided to send me to private school and I repeated 6th there. Still 6+ months younger than everyone else and it stayed that way until college when I met a 16 year old freshman.
Anonymous wrote:All these people complaining are pathetic
Agree. If they don’t like it they can take it up with the law. It’s all allowed.
I’ve seen so many threads complaining about redshirting on DCUM over the last several years but it never progresses to people actually reaching out to the local boards of ed and trying to make a change. What’s the point of whining about it? If you feel that strongly, petition for the rules to change just like NYC did.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
Perhaps rare at your school. It is common in wealthy district like mine. On many occasions, I've taken my kid to a Jan/Feb/Mar/Apr birthday party and then been informed "Caleb is turning SEVEN and I'm not even six yet." It's not a rare occasion and none of these kids have the kind of "profound disabilities" that would merit redshirting. If they have delays or disabilities, they are invisible to other kids or adults, and I suspect could have been handled with sped pullouts and the normal approach to helping children with delays catch up to peers.
If anything, redshirting can delay interventions for kids who need them. Our school does mandatory dyslexia screening in 1st grade, for instance. But these redshirted children get that screening a full year later than they would if they'd gone on time. There are other sped interventions that kids don't get access to until they enroll in elementary, so the idea that sped kids do better with redshirting is suspect -- there are many reasons to believe that enrolling on time would help with early intervention.
But I don't think these are sped kids. I think they are normal kids but have parents who want/need them to be "above average" so they went shopping for an average they could be above.
Maybe their delays or disabilities are not noticeable to you because they were held back a year?
My son will be 5 in March and in pre-K now. He has a genetic mutation that is linked to developmental delays, but it is not physically obvious to other people. He struggles in pre-K and is about a year behind his peers. He has always been delayed in regards to walking, talking, fine motor skills, etc.
I can either watch him continuously struggle to catch up to his peers, or I can keep in pre-K an extra year.
In either case, I don't need the judgement of other parents. Just trying to do the best for him.
My son is also in PK and turning 5 inMarch. He does not have known disabilities, but he is behind most of his peers in language, social emotional maturity, etc. he is not violent and does not cause any trouble at school. He has been seeing a S&L specialist for a few months already and will continue. I would like him to go to K next year and see how he does, but I worry that the admission people at his next school will recommend putting him in PK again.
Anonymous wrote:God people who redshirt their kids are such losers. Don't you remember when you were in school and there was that one weird kid that was older than everyone else in the grade? Now it's your kid.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
It’s only common in more wealthy schools. I have a September kid who went at 5 so if a child was held back in May it could be that big of an age spread. Then the big problem comes when kids are younger and advanced and put into higher grade classes in ms and high school and you get a huge range. My child is the youngest in several classes that range from freshman to seniors. So, beginning of the school year 13 to 18 year olds.
September-May would be 16 month age gap, not 18. 18 month age gap in a class is unheard of, and particularly don’t believe PP’s assertion there are 10 kids in her daughter’s class who are 15-18 months older. She is definitely exaggerating.
I’m in NY. The cutoff in my area is 12/31 as is one private we’re considering. Most privates are 9/1. Many people redshirt fall and some august birthdays here. So it’s actually fully possible that when my mid-September birthday child goes to kindergarten next fall (he’ll be 5 turning 6) that there will be some kids in his class only turning 5 in December. My other child has a late fall birthday but is only a toddler and idk what I’ll do.
Honestly I blame NY at this point. They’re the only state remaining with late cutoffs, which is done so more disadvantaged kids have access to higher quality “childcare” sooner, and that age it’s no longer consistent with what’s expected of kids academically in kindergarten. Kindergarten used to be mostly play based and now it’s not. Many other western countries don’t have kids beginning formal education until 6 or 7.
Bottom line is that there should be a standardized age to begin kindergarten (ie 5 when K starts). Parents should be able to choose what works best for their child. Nobody redshirts spring birthdays up here, but in general people doing that probably have a reason.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
My DD's birthday is July 2015, she was sent on time. There are kids in her class that were born in March 2014. They will turn 10 (in 3rd grade!!!) while she is still 8. That's crazy to me.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
Perhaps rare at your school. It is common in wealthy district like mine. On many occasions, I've taken my kid to a Jan/Feb/Mar/Apr birthday party and then been informed "Caleb is turning SEVEN and I'm not even six yet." It's not a rare occasion and none of these kids have the kind of "profound disabilities" that would merit redshirting. If they have delays or disabilities, they are invisible to other kids or adults, and I suspect could have been handled with sped pullouts and the normal approach to helping children with delays catch up to peers.
If anything, redshirting can delay interventions for kids who need them. Our school does mandatory dyslexia screening in 1st grade, for instance. But these redshirted children get that screening a full year later than they would if they'd gone on time. There are other sped interventions that kids don't get access to until they enroll in elementary, so the idea that sped kids do better with redshirting is suspect -- there are many reasons to believe that enrolling on time would help with early intervention.
But I don't think these are sped kids. I think they are normal kids but have parents who want/need them to be "above average" so they went shopping for an average they could be above.
Jesus Christ. Just MYOB. You sound like such a hyper-competitive busybody. And please stop pretending that you are so concerned that these kids’ possible dyslexia will not be caught or whatever other BS excuse you can come up with to justify you sticking your nose in. No one believes you give a damn about any kid but your own, because you don’t.
Anonymous wrote:God people who redshirt their kids are such losers. Don't you remember when you were in school and there was that one weird kid that was older than everyone else in the grade? Now it's your kid.
Except that’s not how it is. It is the really young ones who clearly stand out as kind of weird. You always wonder what those parents were thinking sending their kids to kindergarten so young.
Anonymous wrote:God people who redshirt their kids are such losers. Don't you remember when you were in school and there was that one weird kid that was older than everyone else in the grade? Now it's your kid.
No, I actually don't. Besides, what happened 40 yrs ago when you were in K is irrelevant.
Decades age, cutoffs in most districts were in Nov/Dec. Now majority are somewhere in Sept. Now factor in the higher educational standards that are not at all comparable to the half-day kindergarten of the 1980s.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
It’s only common in more wealthy schools. I have a September kid who went at 5 so if a child was held back in May it could be that big of an age spread. Then the big problem comes when kids are younger and advanced and put into higher grade classes in ms and high school and you get a huge range. My child is the youngest in several classes that range from freshman to seniors. So, beginning of the school year 13 to 18 year olds.
September-May would be 16 month age gap, not 18. 18 month age gap in a class is unheard of, and particularly don’t believe PP’s assertion there are 10 kids in her daughter’s class who are 15-18 months older. She is definitely exaggerating.
I’m in NY. The cutoff in my area is 12/31 as is one private we’re considering. Most privates are 9/1. Many people redshirt fall and some august birthdays here. So it’s actually fully possible that when my mid-September birthday child goes to kindergarten next fall (he’ll be 5 turning 6) that there will be some kids in his class only turning 5 in December. My other child has a late fall birthday but is only a toddler and idk what I’ll do.
Honestly I blame NY at this point. They’re the only state remaining with late cutoffs, which is done so more disadvantaged kids have access to higher quality “childcare” sooner, and that age it’s no longer consistent with what’s expected of kids academically in kindergarten. Kindergarten used to be mostly play based and now it’s not. Many other western countries don’t have kids beginning formal education until 6 or 7.
Bottom line is that there should be a standardized age to begin kindergarten (ie 5 when K starts). Parents should be able to choose what works best for their child. Nobody redshirts spring birthdays up here, but in general people doing that probably have a reason.
This. And there’s very little suggestion American children do better globally because they start so early.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
It’s only common in more wealthy schools. I have a September kid who went at 5 so if a child was held back in May it could be that big of an age spread. Then the big problem comes when kids are younger and advanced and put into higher grade classes in ms and high school and you get a huge range. My child is the youngest in several classes that range from freshman to seniors. So, beginning of the school year 13 to 18 year olds.
If your September kid goes on time and a May kid was redshirted it would be 16 month difference not 18 month. I have heard of a very few cases of 15-16 month age gap in a class. Never heard of 18 month. That was the math I was disputing.
I think a 16 month age gap is pretty big, and problematic if there's not a reason for it. Generally speaking, a kid who is 6 years, 4 months old is a lot more mature than one who just turned 5 yesterday. And a class with a number of kids who are 16 mo older than the youngest kid could definitely have issues accommodating both of their needs.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
It’s only common in more wealthy schools. I have a September kid who went at 5 so if a child was held back in May it could be that big of an age spread. Then the big problem comes when kids are younger and advanced and put into higher grade classes in ms and high school and you get a huge range. My child is the youngest in several classes that range from freshman to seniors. So, beginning of the school year 13 to 18 year olds.
If your September kid goes on time and a May kid was redshirted it would be 16 month difference not 18 month. I have heard of a very few cases of 15-16 month age gap in a class. Never heard of 18 month. That was the math I was disputing.
I think a 16 month age gap is pretty big, and problematic if there's not a reason for it. Generally speaking, a kid who is 6 years, 4 months old is a lot more mature than one who just turned 5 yesterday. And a class with a number of kids who are 16 mo older than the youngest kid could definitely have issues accommodating both of their needs.
You "think" it's a problem? There are 25 other kids in class. The two ends of the spectrum aren't really that big of a deal in the grand scheme. They probably won't be best friends but they will find their place. Stop worry so much about kids that aren't yours.
Anonymous wrote:I get it op. My late-August birthday girl was called a baby and told she belonged in pre-k because she was still 5 in the late spring of her kindergarten year, by the 7 year olds in the class. Blatant red-shirting skews the dynamics.
I hate this. Redshirt a summer birthday if you feel they aren't ready, but kids with a birthday during the year should not be redshirted at parent discretion (it should be the school's call) and if you do hold a kid like this back, teachers should be proactive about shutting down this kind of teasing/bullying. It happened to my kid too (early August birthday and a full 2 months before the cutoff of September 30th) and it was really frustrating because the attitude of some parents seems to be "if you don't like it, you should redshirt." But that's nuts. You should be able to send a child who is prepared on time and not assume they will get harassed by redshirted kids for being too small.
I have a late summer birthday who was sent ahead, despite being a month younger than the cutoff date. She passed the readiness interview and the school took her early (private school). She is small for her age and was called a baby in K by some of the kids. Luckily the other kids’ parents and the teachers shut that down pretty quickly. Everyone thought she was ready, despite being very young and small for her age. Fast forward a few years - she’s a straight A student and socially well adjusted. I debated if I made the right call not to hold her with her age. Turns out the other kids come from good families that don’t put up with child antics and neither do the teachers. I am grateful for this. Redshirting should be a decision for the school and parents; it is very unique to the children involved. (I send her to a competitive private that normally recommends to redshirt - but not always).
Agree it should be a joint decision by the school and the parents. I think it should be at a parents discretion for a child near the cut off (within 2 months or so) but otherwise it should be a consultation with the school.
One element at play is that unless you have older children, I think parents don't always understand what it means to be ready for kindergarten. It can be hard to look at your 4 year old or just-turned 5 year old and imagine them in elementary school in a few months. But the vast majority of 5 yr olds are totally fine starting kindergarten on time. It's also common for children to have stuff they need to work on, and that doesn't make them unready. I had a kid who started reading on her own the summer before K, but who was very young for her grade and maybe even a little socially immature for her age. To be perfectly honest, there was no "right" answer for her, because sending on time made sense academically but was more of a challenge socially, but holding her back might have eased some of the social stuff but potentially also been a mess because her preschool classroom definitely couldn't support where she was at academically. I think situations like this are more common than we are willing to admit.
Which is why I think it's important that these decisions be made with the school in all cases except kids truly on the cusp in terms of birthday. And yes, I guess that means I don't totally trust other parents to do what's right. I don't! People make mistakes all the time with parenting and since this is a decision that will impact the overall make up of grade cohorts, I don't think it should just be at the parents discretion. There was a PP flipping out about this and the idea that you might need an assessment or consultation with the school in order to be allowed to redshirt, and I just don't understand why that would be an issue. I think it would be clarifying. My kids have taken all kind of placement screenings in life -- I find it useful because usually the school or activity is much better positioned to make sure my kid is in the appropriate level in terms of both readiness and challenge.
ITA.
I'm skeptical of anyone who balks at the idea of involving the ES in the decision to redshirt. If you are doing it because you are concerned about child's readiness -- not to confer a competitive advantage by being older and bigger -- then you should welcome school's input. I agree that so many parents really don't know what Kindergarten readiness looks like -- Kindergarten is in very large part for working on SEL.
What you're missing is that with private schools it's often at the suggestion of the school. You all need to make up your minds about who you're mad at here. The schools love kids ready to hit the ground running and learning even if that means fewer 4 year olds and more kids about to turn 6.
I can only speak for myself, but I was talking about public school...I know private school is very different on this front.
Ok. I haven't read a single legitimate complaint here about how any child was truly affected by another kid being a few months older. So far its parents don't like other parents bragging. And not getting enough play time as a starter in basketball for a kid who never had any basketball promise anyway. What am I missing? Anything else?
Then you either haven't been reading or you've just decided to define "legitimate" as only posts you agree with. A number of posters have talked about having kids who have been bullied or teased, either by redshirted kids or in general for being young, even though they were on time for the class (having a significant number of older kids in a K class is going to make the younger kids seem younger).
Please bump those because I haven't seen any.
Do you think there should be grades at all? Should I be able to send my child to school at 2 if I think they're ready? Should I be able to hold them back 4 years because I want to travel first and can't be bothered? If you agree that there are some limits, then the question is what the limits should be. You may think there's no negative effect to sending a kid a few years early, but you obviously draw the line somewhere and are therefore making some kind of judgment that it matters if kids in a single class are about the same age.
In any case, having much older kids in a class can absolutely make it harder for the teacher to teach because it makes kids more dissimilar and it is easier to teach more similar kids. The teacher's job being harder makes it more likely that my kid's classroom experience won't be as good. There's also the bullying, boredom, sports domination, etc aspects. I don't begrudge parents who redshirted their kid because they and the school decided it was the appropriate decision in light of all facts (including the effects on the class s/he would go into) nor deny that it is an appropriate decision for some kids (and I have no trouble with a +/- 1 month judgment zone where we leave it entirely to parents). But given the number of parents I know who redshirted their boy so that he would have a competitive advantage particularly at sports (not actually so that they would be a superstar, but more for the social cache/confidence boosting reason), I absolutely do not trust that most parents are only doing this because their kid is legitimately behind in some way. There's a reason that non-school-based sports leagues use age cutoffs; it absolutely does matter and parents absolutely try to game the system. Why is it that for baseball we're like of course it's a problem have a kid play down even if they weren't great at baseball as a kid so started late... but in school it's super controversial to say that kids shouldn't typically redshirt?
All of this. No one is saying that redshirting should be banned or that there aren't legitimate reasons to do it, but of course there should be limits and some of us feel the trend towards more redshirting, including redshirting of kids born in the spring, is really widening the window on what is acceptable to a degree that ultimately does a disservice to other children and the classroom environment as a whole.
I find the argument that I'm supposed to just trust other parents to do the right thing so weird. While I know plenty of parents who I feel reasonably confident wouldn't abuse redshirting in order to get their kid an advantage, I also know plenty who would. Not everyone is interested in "playing socially" and lots of people are just out for their own or their kid's interest and could not care at all who else it impacts. Which is why I start giving side eye when I see it normalized for a not-insignificant number of March or April birthdays to be redshirted. I'm sorry, but when a cohort has 10 spring birthdays and 5 of them are redshirted kids, we are not longer in the realm of people redshirting out of necessity. In no world are half of these kids unready for kindergarten.
I do think one thing that happens a lot is that one family will redshirt for totally legitimate reasons that might not be obvious to others, and this freaks out other competitive parents who then redshirt out of fear of being left behind. Literally for no other reason than because they heard some other kid with a May birthday is delaying kindergarten. Parents can be huge lemmings. Which is why having stricter cut offs and requiring some kind of justification that is approved by the school makes sense.
So why don't schools do this (stricter cut offs)? It seems as if they may have a better sense about what's going on than all the hand wringing over hypothetical and baseless fears other parents have. Where is the data to back up your concerns as legitimate? If you don't trust your school, or the teachers who might get confused over what is appropriate kindergarten behavior, you also don't trust the other parents who might be out to screw you over, I'm not sure what to tell you other than you sound extremely paranoid and anxious. It's not the other parents job to manage your issues around this.
Some schools are strict about cut-offs, and then you encounter parents trying to make an endrun around it. We're in DCPS and I've known a number of parents who have tried to finagle their way into redshirting, and generally failed because there was no compelling reason why their kids needed to be held back.
You're still talking in hypotheticals and what ifs. I don't think you have any skin in this game whatsoever.
I have a child in elementary school with a summer birthday who started on time, and I think the classroom dynamics in a classroom with about 10 kids who are 15-18 months older than she is are highly problematic. Already I see a lot of "mature" behaviors that I think are inappropriate in a K or 1st grade classroom (she's in 1st now), and I am very concerned about how puberty is going to impact this situation in a few years. Academically, she's on grade level in math and reading several grades ahead, so it's not about academics.
What is your "skin in the game?"
Is this actually true? I find people on DCUM frequently exaggerate how much older redshirted kids really are. Your kid has a summer bday and is now in 1st grade so let’s do a little math. If your kid’s bday is June-August 2017, you’re saying there are kids in her class who were born in December 2015-February 2016 and will turn 8 half way through 1st grade? That’s an 18 month difference. Sorry but I don’t believe that. I’m a teacher and have never heard of a kid (barring profound disabilities) who turned 8 in winter of 1st grade. Never. Have seen a few kids who are redshirted with spring (March-May) bdays but even that’s quite rare.
Perhaps rare at your school. It is common in wealthy district like mine. On many occasions, I've taken my kid to a Jan/Feb/Mar/Apr birthday party and then been informed "Caleb is turning SEVEN and I'm not even six yet." It's not a rare occasion and none of these kids have the kind of "profound disabilities" that would merit redshirting. If they have delays or disabilities, they are invisible to other kids or adults, and I suspect could have been handled with sped pullouts and the normal approach to helping children with delays catch up to peers.
If anything, redshirting can delay interventions for kids who need them. Our school does mandatory dyslexia screening in 1st grade, for instance. But these redshirted children get that screening a full year later than they would if they'd gone on time. There are other sped interventions that kids don't get access to until they enroll in elementary, so the idea that sped kids do better with redshirting is suspect -- there are many reasons to believe that enrolling on time would help with early intervention.
But I don't think these are sped kids. I think they are normal kids but have parents who want/need them to be "above average" so they went shopping for an average they could be above.
All this angst over a freaking birthday party? You really need some real problems in life. Throw the biggest baddest party for your kid to make him feel better.
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