Why is it so much harder to get into a top school now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many international students at undergraduate level. Unfortunate.

They pay much higher tuition than your family.

Maybe. We should be educating our citizens. L

At private universities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many international students at undergraduate level. Unfortunate.

They pay much higher tuition than your family.

Maybe. We should be educating our citizens. L

At private universities?

Absolutely

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many international students at undergraduate level. Unfortunate.

Find a place that does not enroll many internationals and go there. Perfect match.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

I just have faith math tests. Take two kids. Have them take the same test. The one who does better is probably better with numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

I just have faith math tests. Take two kids. Have them take the same test. The one who does better is probably better with numbers.

And you think that would always be true year after year? Your faith in the SAT is in one test taken when someone is 16 and you think this carries weight until when? 21? 25? 30? Like I said, that’s some level of faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

I just have faith math tests. Take two kids. Have them take the same test. The one who does better is probably better with numbers.

And you think that would always be true year after year? Your faith in the SAT is in one test taken when someone is 16 and you think this carries weight until when? 21? 25? 30? Like I said, that’s some level of faith.

Do you think your innate facility with math really changes after you are 16? I don't. Were the kids in your fifth grade class who were the best math students different from the kids in your 12th grade class? As I recall, not at all.

[Anonymous]

Smart poor kids take the test cold and score very high. Their grades often suck, though. Ask me how I know.

That is where TO is failing them, spectacularly.
Also, the highest correlation is found between SES and the effectiveness of essays, not the SAT.
Rich families love TO because it’s another back door for their kids besides donations, rich kid sportball, and legacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many international students at undergraduate level. Unfortunate.

They pay much higher tuition than your family.

Maybe. We should be educating our citizens. L

At private universities?

Absolutely

We already are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

I just have faith math tests. Take two kids. Have them take the same test. The one who does better is probably better with numbers.

And you think that would always be true year after year? Your faith in the SAT is in one test taken when someone is 16 and you think this carries weight until when? 21? 25? 30? Like I said, that’s some level of faith.

Do you think your innate facility with math really changes after you are 16? I don't. Were the kids in your fifth grade class who were the best math students different from the kids in your 12th grade class? As I recall, not at all.

So we might as well test kids when they’re ten and be done with it? My kid scored poorly on the WPPSI when they were three. I guess I should have just given up on them.

Your level of faith grows even more. Clearly the SAT is a gift from above.

[Anonymous]

I'm tired of the PRIVATE university argument. When private universities take advantage of tax breaks designed for charitable institutions and avoid paying their fair share on multi billion dollar endowments, the public should have a say in what they do.

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Anonymous wrote:Many international students at undergraduate level. Unfortunate.

They pay much higher tuition than your family.

Maybe. We should be educating our citizens. L

At private universities?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

I just have faith math tests. Take two kids. Have them take the same test. The one who does better is probably better with numbers.

And you think that would always be true year after year? Your faith in the SAT is in one test taken when someone is 16 and you think this carries weight until when? 21? 25? 30? Like I said, that’s some level of faith.

Do you think your innate facility with math really changes after you are 16? I don't. Were the kids in your fifth grade class who were the best math students different from the kids in your 12th grade class? As I recall, not at all.

By definition, those with the highest 'innate ability' will have the highest innate ability at whatever age.

But if what you mean is will those achieving the highest in 5th grade still be achieving the highest in 12th grade, that is not a given at all. I'm one who was far ahead of most of my classmates all the way through geometry and then lost interest when things got more difficult.

[Anonymous]

Basketball analogy: Once upon a time it was very rare to have a player consistently hit the threes. Now there are many, many, many. It is a measure coaches look for and young athletes start practicing that when they are very young.

So now coaches are less impressed than they used to be because they will see a lot of candidates with good stats there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Smart poor kids take the test cold and score very high. Their grades often suck, though. Ask me how I know.

That is where TO is failing them, spectacularly.
Also, the highest correlation is found between SES and the effectiveness of essays, not the SAT.
Rich families love TO because it’s another back door for their kids besides donations, rich kid sportball, and legacy.

I agree and this is contrary to conventional wisdom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) more kids applying to colleges in general
2) more international kids applying to US schools
3) grade inflation, which has been going on for years but was exacerbated by CovID
4) test opitonal - removes some sort of baseline understanding of how competititve kids are from "lesser" schools or school districts
5) for white kids, more emphasis on applicants of color and "first gen"

All of these combine to make it harder. It is what it is, and it will take some time for the schools to figure it out, so the key is to find a wide band of schools your kid likes and not focus on the same "T10" 'T25" or whatever. There shouldn't be people who want to apply to both Dartmouth and Columbia, wildly different schools and settings, same with Columbia and Brown, for example. Decide what you like about a school and then identify 10 others that have similar qualities but different variables to gain entry.

Very smart comment, and don't miss the bolded. A lot of people (especially on these boards) are stuck in this perspective on college admissions where all good students should want to go to the same 25 schools (and that the best students will all want to attend the same 5 schools). The truth is that there are a huge number of great schools out there and that the best first for your students will depend on their academic goals, social preferences, environmental preferences, etc.

Though part of this hangup is driven by parents who work in fields where that "T25" preference remains -- BigLaw, the top banks and consulting firms, politics. They work in fields where having certain academic credentials are, if not required, a huge advantage. And they don't understand that these same schools are not preferred for all fields. Your really have to understand your child's goals and think more expansively about what a "good school" is in that context.

Given that so many top students are going outside of these schools, I think these trends may change. They have already changed my colleagues' views on recruiting.

WAs with a recruiter from a major investment bank recently and they said that they are moving theirlist down from just Top 25 to more emphasis on Top 26-75. The same kids who a decade ago were always T25 are now 26 to 75.

All of this will have consequences in recruiting as you say. The whole shift will seem like it's happening in slomo but it's ver much happening.

Need to find the genuinely high brain power kids who used to exist mainly at top 25 but have been crammed down by DEI, FGIL, TO

Your view is so narrow. Kids with good test scores do not necessarily have “higher brain power” than kids with slightly lower that went TO. The TO kid may have chosen to spend their time doing other intellectual and interesting things rather than prepping and retesting for a 1600 super score. Also, people manifest intelligence in several ways, of which test taking is only one. Don’t be fooled by high test scores, especially with super scoring. IME, super intelligent kids are curious and studying for the SAT is very boring for them and they may not drill down to prep (which they probably need because many intelligent kids will overthink the questions and get them wrong).

A top Goldman Sachs guy once told a very prominent business school professor I know that the single best predictor of success there was Math SAT. Kinda makes sense huh? Ability to quickly solve relatively complicated math problems... A super bright kid who can't bring himself to prepare for the most important exam in his or her life that will position him for all kinds of great intellectual growth opportunities--that is not a kid who is especially likely to succeed in the real world.

Your limited and narrow view is funny to see!

My husband works at Goldman and there are plenty of Kenyon, Michigan, Emory, and even schools you haven’t heard of if you’re not from there. Your friend may be speaking about a tiny subset at Goldman, say the IBD freshman class, but certainly not everyone.

Are you saying Michigan, Emory, and Kenyon don't have high math scores? Because I'm not understanding the reference.

Most recent CDS data for 75th percentile math SAT
Michigan: 780
Emory: 790
Kenyon: 760

I thought it was obvious. I’m saying they are not top schools in the same way HYP, Stanford, MIT, Williams, and Amherst are. Do you understand now? (I’m sure going TO has helped these scores significantly too).

But were you saying IBD department still only had kids from those historically top schools?

Only, no. Are you more likely to be in the IBD freshman class coming from a school like that (+ Penn and a few others) than a school like Kenyon? A decade ago the answer was yes and I assume it probably still holds.

My point was that there are plenty of people at Goldman who didn’t do well on their Math SAT (if you go by undergrad alma mater 50 percentile) who ended up at Goldman. I know that the last few years with TO and super scoring every college has amazing stats, but if you got into college in the last 2-3 years you aren’t working at Goldman Sachs. You are still in college.

Students today know that Goldman is no longer the place to be precisely because the skills required to succeed at Goldman have never been top math scores. My son and his friends who are very good in math want quant or HFT jobs where strong math skills (way beyond SAT math) are required. Recently a friend who works at Golman told me that when they went for an info session at Penn, they had few students show up because another Fintech company had their session at the same time. Quant shops will take top math kids from Georgia Tech versus the kid at Harvard if the GT kid is great at math. This has happened to out friend's son. He was hired by Citadel from Georgia Tech, while another friend's son from Penn did not get into Citadel.

True math geniuses today have a range of options in finance that are unavailable to the average “top student.” Corporate finance jobs like at GS are for smart kids but not for kids who have the ability to get a math or physics PHD for example. The point is not that you have to be a math genius to excel at Goldman or on Wall Street generally, you just have to have a strong (and fast) mathematical mind and a quantitative orientation

+1. This is the point I was trump to make. And no one is conflating Goldman with Jane street. What PP said is on the $, if you can get a a PhD in Physics from Caltech you are way more marketable than a Columbia or Duke MBA - and no way are you waisting your time at Goldman.

Right. But perhaps the banker who got 780 tends to do better than the banker who got 700.

You have some faith in the all knowing power of the SAT.

I just have faith math tests. Take two kids. Have them take the same test. The one who does better is probably better with numbers.

And you think that would always be true year after year? Your faith in the SAT is in one test taken when someone is 16 and you think this carries weight until when? 21? 25? 30? Like I said, that’s some level of faith.

Do you think your innate facility with math really changes after you are 16? I don't. Were the kids in your fifth grade class who were the best math students different from the kids in your 12th grade class? As I recall, not at all.

So we might as well test kids when they’re ten and be done with it? My kid scored poorly on the WPPSI when they were three. I guess I should have just given up on them.

Your level of faith grows even more. Clearly the SAT is a gift from above.

It’s not even the SAT per se. It’s just that it’s a challenging but straightforward math test that everyone has to take. The ones who do better at math tests are generally better at math.