Another clearance q

[Anonymous]

Five years ago, DH began the process of getting a clearance to be an FBI analyst. He failed the poly because he couldn't get past the question "Is there anything you're not telling us?" DH is an honest, forthcoming person, follows rules to a t. He spilled his guts about every possible thing that could have been tripping him up but he failed regardless.

Fast forward five years, he is considering some defense contractor positions where he will need a clearance, though he is avoiding any job that requires a poly. How will this work? Should he disclose that he failed an FBI poly 5 years ago? Is he even still eligible for a clearance given the failed poly?

[Anonymous]

when he failed a poly, what was the letter he got from the feds? was it a clearance rejection with a statement of reasons or only a letter that said that he was 'unsuitable'.

If it was an unsuitability letter, the letter i explicity states i believe that it is NOT a rejection of clearance but stating that your husband was "unsuitable" for the job.

A clearance rejection however is something you always have to disclose on future sf-86 regardless of how long ago its been.

Poly's are shit, I commend your husband for actively avoiding jobs that need poly. I wish I did the same. They are blunt instruments that give 'cover' to lazy investigators/agencies that do not want to spend the resources to fully vet everyone/a source/hunt a leak, etc.

[Anonymous]

Fascinating story. I'm going to watch how this develops. I had high security clearance at DOJ but have never taken a poly. I thought about applying to the CIA but thought I might fail the poly, not over anything I had one incorrectly but because they usually ask about debt and we are carrying more than I would like. I'm an excruciatingly honest person and double and triplethink tests so wold assume I, too, would fail the "Is there anything you're not telling us" question because OF COURSE there must be SOMETHING out there I am forgetting about. Was there a boyfriend or address I forgot to mention? The time I didn't pay credit card on time? The girl scout camp I went to and left early due to strep throat? That my kids have "issues"? I bet those pencil arms would be whipping all over the paper on me with the "Is there anything you're not telling us?" line. I even answer the MMPI test questions like "while driving do you ever think about driving off the road?" Well of course I do - I think about it all the time so I stay ON the road. FAIL. Would love to hear of some experiences.

[Anonymous]

My husband is extremely honest and law-abiding (tried pot once, didn't drink in college) and the poly was really tough for him. He did fine, but they called him in for a second one, claiming that his answers to some of the questions were not clear. He said they definitely tried to trip him up and implied he was not telling the truth about very mundane things. He honestly had nothing to hide, so he just kept going through the questioning. I don't recall him saying they asked him much about finances, but since I handle it all, he probably just said as much and they dropped it. I guess they had ran the credit report already on him as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fascinating story. I'm going to watch how this develops. I had high security clearance at DOJ but have never taken a poly. I thought about applying to the CIA but thought I might fail the poly, not over anything I had one incorrectly but because they usually ask about debt and we are carrying more than I would like. I'm an excruciatingly honest person and double and triplethink tests so wold assume I, too, would fail the "Is there anything you're not telling us" question because OF COURSE there must be SOMETHING out there I am forgetting about. Was there a boyfriend or address I forgot to mention? The time I didn't pay credit card on time? The girl scout camp I went to and left early due to strep throat? That my kids have "issues"? I bet those pencil arms would be whipping all over the paper on me with the "Is there anything you're not telling us?" line. I even answer the MMPI test questions like "while driving do you ever think about driving off the road?" Well of course I do - I think about it all the time so I stay ON the road. FAIL. Would love to hear of some experiences.

The poly blows for overly analytical people or people who grew up with parents who made them feel guilty about anything.

Polygraphers keep stressing don't let your mind wander or overthink the question because they know their test is not overly accurate. It's a rusty old blunt axe and not a laser scalpel. I had major issues on my polys in trying to stay focussed. Especially when you on the box in a 10x10 room staring a white wall for 3-4 hours with no food in the morning (if you had to have your blood/physical done in the morning).

Poly's also suck for those who grew up with parents that made them feel guilty about everything. Poly's are not good separating specific lies from the truth, just general 'uneasyness' for whatever reason that might be. Those who compartmentalize very well (which includes psychopaths) do superbly on polys.

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone. I'll have to dig up the letter to see the exact verbiage. I agree that the poly is a horribly inaccurate measure of trustworthiness. I always tell DH that it's the government (and the nation for that matter's) loss. He would have done great work. Sigh.

[Anonymous]

Sadly, the most honest, trustworthy people often have the most trouble with the poly. Polygraphs don't work that well, but they do intimidate those who have something serious to hide into not taking the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Five years ago, DH began the process of getting a clearance to be an FBI analyst. He failed the poly because he couldn't get past the question "Is there anything you're not telling us?" DH is an honest, forthcoming person, follows rules to a t. He spilled his guts about every possible thing that could have been tripping him up but he failed regardless.

Fast forward five years, he is considering some defense contractor positions where he will need a clearance, though he is avoiding any job that requires a poly. How will this work? Should he disclose that he failed an FBI poly 5 years ago? Is he even still eligible for a clearance given the failed poly?

There's more to this story. Polys ask yes or no questions. I've been through multiple. They talk with you in advance, you know the questions, you have a chance to clarify where your answers might cause problems. It isn't like the movies where they interrogate you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Five years ago, DH began the process of getting a clearance to be an FBI analyst. He failed the poly because he couldn't get past the question "Is there anything you're not telling us?" DH is an honest, forthcoming person, follows rules to a t. He spilled his guts about every possible thing that could have been tripping him up but he failed regardless.

Fast forward five years, he is considering some defense contractor positions where he will need a clearance, though he is avoiding any job that requires a poly. How will this work? Should he disclose that he failed an FBI poly 5 years ago? Is he even still eligible for a clearance given the failed poly?

There's more to this story. Polys ask yes or no questions. I've been through multiple. They talk with you in advance, you know the questions, you have a chance to clarify where your answers might cause problems. It isn't like the movies where they interrogate you.

Really, pp, there isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sadly, the most honest, trustworthy people often have the most trouble with the poly. Polygraphs don't work that well, but they do intimidate those who have something serious to hide into not taking the test.

yep, it really intimidated ames and hanssen.

Poly is the default 'cover all' for lazy investigators and the IC in general. Ronnie Raygun especially loved the cult of the polygraph, he wanted to expand all throughout the fed government as well as his cabinet.

A year or two ago when lot of leaks were coming out of the IC in relation to those in the IC talking to the press...what was Clapper/DNI's reaction?

MOAR POLY'S! and adding an extra question or two regarding have u ever disseminated classified material blah blah blah.

[Anonymous]

I am not an advocate for polygraphs, but in my line of work I know quite a bit about them. No accredited federal polygraph examiner would score a subject as failing based on the question "Is there anything you are not telling me?" In fact, I'm pretty sure that no question like that would be asked while a subject was attached to the machine. What more likely happened if there was a significant response to a question such as "Have you committed any serious crimes?" Then, AFTER being removed from the machine, the examiner asked about all of the reasons why there may have been a response to that question. After the subject and examiner discussed any and all reasons why the subject may have had difficulty with that question (Have you committed any serious crimes?), he would go back on the box and ask the same question again. If there is still a response, the subject fails.

You may want to have a discussion with your husband about what question he really responded to that led to the failed poly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not an advocate for polygraphs, but in my line of work I know quite a bit about them. No accredited federal polygraph examiner would score a subject as failing based on the question "Is there anything you are not telling me?" In fact, I'm pretty sure that no question like that would be asked while a subject was attached to the machine. What more likely happened if there was a significant response to a question such as "Have you committed any serious crimes?" Then, AFTER being removed from the machine, the examiner asked about all of the reasons why there may have been a response to that question. After the subject and examiner discussed any and all reasons why the subject may have had difficulty with that question (Have you committed any serious crimes?), he would go back on the box and ask the same question again. If there is still a response, the subject fails.

You may want to have a discussion with your husband about what question he really responded to that led to the failed poly.

The issue is that poly's are not accurate in pinpointing a particular issue no matter what the polygrapher's guild says. They are good in measuring general uneasiness, which can be somewhat trained away or with people who compartmentalize very well, useless. I've taken 3 of them and kept getting hit on 'have you ever been in contact with a foreign intelligence service' and/or questions related to foreign national contact even though I've been out of the country only twice in my entire life for a family vacation.

furthermore if poly's are so accurate, why do they redact and keep your own session classified from you when you foia your file? So sure, the polygrapher says 'this question is what you are showing a reaction on' but you'll never get a printed/written account of that so you never know if you really are buzzing on that question or not.

I might be taking one or two next year and I know now it's a dice game and the best way to go with it is not really not give a fuck, which is tough for type-a analytical types but its something you just have to accept unfortunately.