Can someone explain “defund” the police vs police reform?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The defund groups really do want to get rid of all police. People on here keep saying that is not what defund means, but it depends which group. The 8 can't wait group will keep some police, but a new group 8 to abdicate truly wants to get rid of the police and is where the movement is headed. You can see it at https://www.8toabolition.com or check #8toAbolition on twitter.

While money can be moved around to social programs which should help reduce crime, even if everyone's needs are met there will still be crime. Assault, murder, rape, etc... are often committed for reasons besides people making ends meet. If people really want to see ProPublica's rticle on what happens. https://features.propublica.org/local-reporting-network-alaska/alaska-sexual-violence-village-police/ If you read the article you will see how rapes and assualts go unchecked without a real police force. Hopefully the abolition people will not get their way or we are going to be Mad Max in the cities.

You can live without police now -- just move to an Alaska village! I posted a couple of articles about the rate of sexual assault in Alaska in the other thread that got locked. Surveys show that 59% of women in Alaska have been the subject of violence, and it is estimated that approaching 100% of women in remote villages have been sexually assaulted. It's not the men who suffer when there is no law enforcement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The defund groups really do want to get rid of all police. People on here keep saying that is not what defund means, but it depends which group. The 8 can't wait group will keep some police, but a new group 8 to abdicate truly wants to get rid of the police and is where the movement is headed. You can see it at https://www.8toabolition.com or check #8toAbolition on twitter.

While money can be moved around to social programs which should help reduce crime, even if everyone's needs are met there will still be crime. Assault, murder, rape, etc... are often committed for reasons besides people making ends meet. If people really want to see ProPublica's rticle on what happens. https://features.propublica.org/local-reporting-network-alaska/alaska-sexual-violence-village-police/ If you read the article you will see how rapes and assualts go unchecked without a real police force. Hopefully the abolition people will not get their way or we are going to be Mad Max in the cities.

You can live without police now -- just move to an Alaska village! I posted a couple of articles about the rate of sexual assault in Alaska in the other thread that got locked. Surveys show that 59% of women in Alaska have been the subject of violence, and it is estimated that approaching 100% of women in remote villages have been sexually assaulted. It's not the men who suffer when there is no law enforcement.

Police. Don’t. Stop. Rape.

[Anonymous]

Funny how they knew exactly what the word meant when they said Defund Planned Parenthood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Funny how they knew exactly what the word meant when they said Defund Planned Parenthood

In that context, “defund” means “strip of all government funding.” That’s the obvious meaning of “defund the police.”

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The defund groups really do want to get rid of all police. People on here keep saying that is not what defund means, but it depends which group. The 8 can't wait group will keep some police, but a new group 8 to abdicate truly wants to get rid of the police and is where the movement is headed. You can see it at https://www.8toabolition.com or check #8toAbolition on twitter.

While money can be moved around to social programs which should help reduce crime, even if everyone's needs are met there will still be crime. Assault, murder, rape, etc... are often committed for reasons besides people making ends meet. If people really want to see ProPublica's rticle on what happens. https://features.propublica.org/local-reporting-network-alaska/alaska-sexual-violence-village-police/ If you read the article you will see how rapes and assualts go unchecked without a real police force. Hopefully the abolition people will not get their way or we are going to be Mad Max in the cities.

You can live without police now -- just move to an Alaska village! I posted a couple of articles about the rate of sexual assault in Alaska in the other thread that got locked. Surveys show that 59% of women in Alaska have been the subject of violence, and it is estimated that approaching 100% of women in remote villages have been sexually assaulted. It's not the men who suffer when there is no law enforcement.

The situation with remote Alaskan villages is more complicated than lack of police, it's lack of a lot of social resources. There was an NPR program profiling a woman who is one of the non-LE community officers they rely on, and suicide was as much of the problems she was dealing with as sexual violence. And it is within the context of what has been and continues to be done to indigenous communities, so it's not just a "no police" issue.

Similar problems apply to non-indigenous impoverished rural areas outside of Alaska.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

+ 1000

[Anonymous]

Part of the idea, I take it, is to take down the existing police union. I've been curious how that plays out from the standpoint of labor relations law--is there a potential legal fight in that arena? Any labor relations experts on here?

Also, listening to something on NPR last night I wondered about POST (police officers standards and training is what I think is means) which is the entity in charge of licensing police. How has that played out in connection with police being disciplined/fired and unions overturning department discipline when it does occur?

For the past several years I have thought that there needs to be more of a preserve life mandate in use of force standards and how to weigh threat and risk. The legal precedent always invokes them having to make split second decisions in rapidly evolving situations. Ok. ER doctors also have to make split second decisions in rapidly evolving situations when it comes to very acute medical conditions and trauma. Are they better at making correct decisions than are LE? Reading about a restraint death (white man, drunk and on meth, turned out to have an enlarged heart as well, violently resisting and broke officer's orbital bones when he punched him while attempting to restrain in a muddy ditch) in OK that went to trial (summary judgment in favor of the police). As soon as cops realize he is not breathing they ask a bystander (man's family and friends were nearby) to call 911 and 2 bystanders trained in CPR, one a nurse, are correcting the officers' CPR methods because they don't have the guy positioned correctly.

The decision, btw, is enlightening in how the cops could end up being exonerated although the video surely will help avoid that possibility, although in the cops' favor (in OK) was that they seemed to recognize fairly quickly when the man became nonresponsive. Does anyone know at what point EMTs were called in the Floyd case and what was said on the call?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Defund the police doesn't mean literally get rid of police and having no more police (a few mean that but most don't). It means that police are now responsible for areas that they didn't used to be, including mental health crises, homelessness, drug issues, school behavior issues, etc. that should be handled by other social services.

Defund the police means to shift some of the police budgets from the police to other social services, including community centers, youth leagues, social workers, home nurses and therapists, etc. Municipal funds can and should be reexamined and redistributed to invest in cities, not just tanks for police departments. What would you want to see to make your area a better place?

+1

If this is accurate (it has only recently gotten my attention) - this is good. How many undiagnosed dementia patients might it save, for example?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The defund groups really do want to get rid of all police. People on here keep saying that is not what defund means, but it depends which group. The 8 can't wait group will keep some police, but a new group 8 to abdicate truly wants to get rid of the police and is where the movement is headed. You can see it at https://www.8toabolition.com or check #8toAbolition on twitter.

While money can be moved around to social programs which should help reduce crime, even if everyone's needs are met there will still be crime. Assault, murder, rape, etc... are often committed for reasons besides people making ends meet. If people really want to see ProPublica's rticle on what happens. https://features.propublica.org/local-reporting-network-alaska/alaska-sexual-violence-village-police/ If you read the article you will see how rapes and assualts go unchecked without a real police force. Hopefully the abolition people will not get their way or we are going to be Mad Max in the cities.

You can live without police now -- just move to an Alaska village! I posted a couple of articles about the rate of sexual assault in Alaska in the other thread that got locked. Surveys show that 59% of women in Alaska have been the subject of violence, and it is estimated that approaching 100% of women in remote villages have been sexually assaulted. It's not the men who suffer when there is no law enforcement.

Police. Don’t. Stop. Rape.

The evidence in Alaska is otherwise. The threat of arrest and prosecution stops rape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The defund groups really do want to get rid of all police. People on here keep saying that is not what defund means, but it depends which group. The 8 can't wait group will keep some police, but a new group 8 to abdicate truly wants to get rid of the police and is where the movement is headed. You can see it at https://www.8toabolition.com or check #8toAbolition on twitter.

While money can be moved around to social programs which should help reduce crime, even if everyone's needs are met there will still be crime. Assault, murder, rape, etc... are often committed for reasons besides people making ends meet. If people really want to see ProPublica's rticle on what happens. https://features.propublica.org/local-reporting-network-alaska/alaska-sexual-violence-village-police/ If you read the article you will see how rapes and assualts go unchecked without a real police force. Hopefully the abolition people will not get their way or we are going to be Mad Max in the cities.

You can live without police now -- just move to an Alaska village! I posted a couple of articles about the rate of sexual assault in Alaska in the other thread that got locked. Surveys show that 59% of women in Alaska have been the subject of violence, and it is estimated that approaching 100% of women in remote villages have been sexually assaulted. It's not the men who suffer when there is no law enforcement.

The situation with remote Alaskan villages is more complicated than lack of police, it's lack of a lot of social resources. There was an NPR program profiling a woman who is one of the non-LE community officers they rely on, and suicide was as much of the problems she was dealing with as sexual violence. And it is within the context of what has been and continues to be done to indigenous communities, so it's not just a "no police" issue.

Similar problems apply to non-indigenous impoverished rural areas outside of Alaska.

Suicide and substance abuse are also huge problems in rural Alaska, but scope of the sexual assault problem is mind-boggling. The people who actually live in these villages are begging for the resources to provide adequate policing. What in the history of humans makes people think that letting people live without the threat of incarceration of enforcement of social norms is a good idea?

Like I said, if you really want to experience what it is to live without police, you should go live in an Alaskan village and see how you like it.

As a another data point, it took two days for armed "enforcers" to appear in the "Seattle Autonomous Zone" and start assaulting people for misbehavior.

[Anonymous]

Hours to become a cop - 840 hours.
Hours to become a barber - 1,500 hours.
WTF?
Until they become true trained professionals they don’t need a union.
Right now they’re just a bunch of paid mercenaries terrorizing and shooting and beating the shit out of mostly honest hard-working people in poor communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Part of the idea, I take it, is to take down the existing police union. I've been curious how that plays out from the standpoint of labor relations law--is there a potential legal fight in that arena? Any labor relations experts on here?

Also, listening to something on NPR last night I wondered about POST (police officers standards and training is what I think is means) which is the entity in charge of licensing police. How has that played out in connection with police being disciplined/fired and unions overturning department discipline when it does occur?

For the past several years I have thought that there needs to be more of a preserve life mandate in use of force standards and how to weigh threat and risk. The legal precedent always invokes them having to make split second decisions in rapidly evolving situations. Ok. ER doctors also have to make split second decisions in rapidly evolving situations when it comes to very acute medical conditions and trauma. Are they better at making correct decisions than are LE? Reading about a restraint death (white man, drunk and on meth, turned out to have an enlarged heart as well, violently resisting and broke officer's orbital bones when he punched him while attempting to restrain in a muddy ditch) in OK that went to trial (summary judgment in favor of the police). As soon as cops realize he is not breathing they ask a bystander (man's family and friends were nearby) to call 911 and 2 bystanders trained in CPR, one a nurse, are correcting the officers' CPR methods because they don't have the guy positioned correctly.

The decision, btw, is enlightening in how the cops could end up being exonerated although the video surely will help avoid that possibility, although in the cops' favor (in OK) was that they seemed to recognize fairly quickly when the man became nonresponsive. Does anyone know at what point EMTs were called in the Floyd case and what was said on the call?

ER doctors have 12 years of training (4 years undergrad+ 4 years med school+ 4 residency). This also means 12 years where these individuals are constantly evaluated for their fitness to be in this profession

LEOs have anywhere from 3-6 months of training. Just for comparison, dental hygenist, hair stylist, culinary school, etc all have longer training periods. It's mind-boggling that people who are legally empowered to use lethal force and are charged with public safety have such a short training and evaluative period.

Before someone thinks that I want police to have 12 year training period, that's definitively not my point. I think we should move to Norwegian model of 3 years of training- 1st and 3rd at school, 2nd year in the field.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

I hate what happened to George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray, and many other African Americans. However, I can't support the idea that it is inherent bad to want to be a police officer. Years ago, when I lived in upstate New York, and ex boyfriend of mine was acting really crazy. He broke into my apartment when I wasn't home, broke all of my dishes and two of my windows, and apparently, harmed my cat (she had two broken ribs afterwards). The police were very helpful, and due to their intervention, he left me alone.