JK Rowling's gender policing finally caught up to her

Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:A laboratory test seems like the easiest way to put this to rest.

If there are any “Y” chromosomes detected, the boxer is male. If not, the boxer is female. This is a binary outcome. One or the other. And then we’ll know the answer.


I trust science.


According to science, it is possible for females to have Y chromosomes. It is not binary.


Are you a scientist? Because you are misreading this. It is binary. The only time it isn’t is when there is a mutation.


It's binary, except when it's not binary. So it's not actually binary.



You can keep saying this, but that doesn’t make it true. It is binary. There are only two options. An error in transcription or translation is just that - an error.


So you are saying that someone is a man, a woman, or an “error”? First, that’s not binary (bi meaning two, and even if “error” were an okay think to say about a human being, it’s still a third option) . Second— WTF is wrong with you?


An intersex person is 100% an error of nature. I am a scientist. It is what it is. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be here, or don’t count. But they are literal errors. Sorry that hurts your feelings.


+1
It’s hilarious that all the “trust the science!” people are all about science UNTIL science says something that disagrees with their feelz.

Then it becomes “it’s complicated” or “no one can really say for certain”.

Yeah, NO.


I think the objection is calling people with these "abnormalities" abnormal. Or a mistake. Or an error. It's mean. Unnecessary. And rude af. Would you call someone with other "abnormalities" resulting in physical or mental disabilities a mistake?

No. You wouldn't.


I wouldn’t be shocked if they do.


Scientifically I absolutely do. Why does that shock you?


You would tell parents of a child with Downs Syndrome that their kid is a mistake?


Of course not. I’m doing it here. And I would anywhere else science was being discussed with other scientists.

Having a discussion in a lab, hospital or university (or online message board) about genetic mutations is different than speaking with a parent about their child. I thought that would go without saying.

You can rest easy now.


There are parents on here with children with Downs Syndrome. It’s a parenting forum, not medical.

Again, not shocked at all that bigots don’t mind being a dick.


I’m a scientist, not a bigot.

I care more about facts than feelings.

Always have, always will.


Ooohhh, someone's social challenges slip is showing.

Wouldn't be so sad if you were actually good at science, but, you know.


Believe me what I’ve forgotten about science you’ll never know.


And you’ll always be a dick. Proudly, it seems.


Yep. That comes with having facts on my side.


For this to be a brag, you have to actually know what you are talking about. Otherwise it's just called being a dick.


Oh I am. You know, having a science degree and all. I know very well. Clearly more than the progressives on this thread.


What's your degree? I have an MD and a PhD. This is my bread and butter.


If you have an MD and a PhD and you think that sex is not binary then something went wrong somewhere. You are most certainly on the fringe with this one.


Bless your heart, arguing with a PHD in her field. Are you one of those also believe the earth is flat (you can't see), and virus does not exit (you can't see)? Maybe you should to back to school. Your personal experience does not count as science.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how any of this is an issue. There are a tiny percentage of human beings that are born intersex. Which, fine. All accommodations should be made. But - scientifically - men are stronger, faster, have more endurance etc. Sure, Sydney McLauglin is going to beat your grandpa at anything. But she is not beating the times of the best male athletes. Intersex athletes like Caster Semenya and Imane Khalif have an unfair advantage. We all know that. They should compete with the men.

And running is one thing. But using that testosterone advantage for boxing? I mean, c'mon. Not remotely fair. It is abusive.


Re: Khelif, we don't know anything.

Re: Semenya--how does higher testosterone give her a bigger advantage than other characteristics? Take height--being shorter is an advantage in women's gymnastics. The average height is 5'1". But women in general...5'4".

There only about 2800 ppl in the world over 7' tall, and 40 of them are in the NBA? Is that fair to the vast majority of players who are not in that 0.000038% and can never be?

Should men with very low testosterone participate in women's sports?

We are getting too deep in the weeds because there is no level playing field. Most of these elite athletes are elite because they have super uncommon characteristics. Michael Phelps foot size and lung capacity. Venus and Serena's extreme musculature. Joel Embiid's height.

SO what is the purpose of all this level testing of hormones?


To gatekeep who gets to be a "woman" and punish those who do not conform to societal norms. Fin.


Do you think women’s sports should be separate from men’s? How do you propose we divide them?


Yes, the most acceptable way is the "natural" way - by genitals.
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:A laboratory test seems like the easiest way to put this to rest.

If there are any “Y” chromosomes detected, the boxer is male. If not, the boxer is female. This is a binary outcome. One or the other. And then we’ll know the answer.


I trust science.


According to science, it is possible for females to have Y chromosomes. It is not binary.


Are you a scientist? Because you are misreading this. It is binary. The only time it isn’t is when there is a mutation.


It's binary, except when it's not binary. So it's not actually binary.



You can keep saying this, but that doesn’t make it true. It is binary. There are only two options. An error in transcription or translation is just that - an error.


So you are saying that someone is a man, a woman, or an “error”? First, that’s not binary (bi meaning two, and even if “error” were an okay think to say about a human being, it’s still a third option) . Second— WTF is wrong with you?


An intersex person is 100% an error of nature. I am a scientist. It is what it is. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be here, or don’t count. But they are literal errors. Sorry that hurts your feelings.


+1
It’s hilarious that all the “trust the science!” people are all about science UNTIL science says something that disagrees with their feelz.

Then it becomes “it’s complicated” or “no one can really say for certain”.

Yeah, NO.


I think the objection is calling people with these "abnormalities" abnormal. Or a mistake. Or an error. It's mean. Unnecessary. And rude af. Would you call someone with other "abnormalities" resulting in physical or mental disabilities a mistake?

No. You wouldn't.


I wouldn’t be shocked if they do.


Scientifically I absolutely do. Why does that shock you?


You would tell parents of a child with Downs Syndrome that their kid is a mistake?


Of course not. I’m doing it here. And I would anywhere else science was being discussed with other scientists.

Having a discussion in a lab, hospital or university (or online message board) about genetic mutations is different than speaking with a parent about their child. I thought that would go without saying.

You can rest easy now.


There are parents on here with children with Downs Syndrome. It’s a parenting forum, not medical.

Again, not shocked at all that bigots don’t mind being a dick.


I’m a scientist, not a bigot.

I care more about facts than feelings.

Always have, always will.


Ooohhh, someone's social challenges slip is showing.

Wouldn't be so sad if you were actually good at science, but, you know.


Believe me what I’ve forgotten about science you’ll never know.


And you’ll always be a dick. Proudly, it seems.


Yep. That comes with having facts on my side.


For this to be a brag, you have to actually know what you are talking about. Otherwise it's just called being a dick.


Oh I am. You know, having a science degree and all. I know very well. Clearly more than the progressives on this thread.


What's your degree? I have an MD and a PhD. This is my bread and butter.


If you have an MD and a PhD and you think that sex is not binary then something went wrong somewhere. You are most certainly on the fringe with this one.


Bless your heart, arguing with a PHD in her field. Are you one of those also believe the earth is flat (you can't see), and virus does not exit (you can't see)? Maybe you should to back to school. Your personal experience does not count as science.


I’m a scientist. Love me some viruses. Love a nice round earth. Love love love vaccines. Aced gross anatomy and histology. Anything science is my bag. So what particular personal experience are you talking about?
Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:Look, I do feel its complex to allow trans women into women's sports. But that's not the issue with Imane. A lot of people misunderstood what was going on and apologized once they realized they were wrong. Has Rowling apologized for mischaracterizing the situation? Has Musk?


What did Rowling get wrong? Be specific.


Troll.


Sounds like you can’t find anything incorrect about her statements. You just hate her because she supports women. Typical.


Regardless if Khelif actually is a genetic anomaly, she was raised as a woman in a country where women have limited options. She had to fight tooth and nail to be a woman in boxing. She experienced gender discrimination.

She has lived the life of a woman with all the parts and baggage. And YET..Rowling dismissed all that, all the struggles she supposedly cares about, because Khelif MAY have a DSD, which is nowhere near the same as being a man.

So she only seems to care about certain kinds of women, which is ERFish (not TERFish).


Depending the DSD, Khelif would still be male even if his parents call him she and put him in dresses. Having a DSD does not make one non male necessarily.



Yeah well, it is all speculation. And intersex indicates that sex is really more bimodal than binary. If we accept that ANY presence of an X or Y makes someone male or female, than we ignore that XY gonadal dysgenesis (with Y chromosome, but dysfunctional SRY group) exists, which presents externally as female. 46,XX/46,XY chimerism also exists, which can result in either indeterminate sex characteristics or just entirely male or female presentation.

To add: an XY-female who has an Y-chromosome but either suffers from androgen insensitivity or a damaged SRY-gene is not a "male" as we know it, no more than an XX-male with a translocated SRY-gene to one of the other chromosomes is a “female."

It is just too complicated, so why not keep it simple. Birth certificates. Otherwise, we have to also account for other anomalies like height and lung capacity and musculature.



Boxing already has strict weight classes and (supposedly) strict sex classes. Other sport governing bodies have rules for intersex athletes. For example, running allows intersex women to compete in the women's races if they take testosterone lowering medication. When Caster Semenya started taking testosterone lowering medication, she lost races and then retired.

The problem is that the IOC got into a tiff with the boxing governing body, that had rules for intersex athletes, but the IOC disqualified the boxing governing body and didn't bother to come up with rules for boxing. They are requiring a new boxing governing body for the next Olympics. And at that time, these two women may or may not be eligible.
Anonymous
So many ppl threatened by those different than themselves. It’s sad. Maybe they need therapy.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:So many ppl threatened by those different than themselves. It’s sad. Maybe they need therapy.


That’s your takeaway?
Anonymous
The reason we have separate mens and women's competitions is for a good reason, as a reminder. It is inclusive, giving more people a chance to win. Combining sexes and making sports open means fewer opportunities (for women) to win.

That means that the question of who is a woman needs to be addressed rather than merely hand waved away. And there are a number of people who do not want to address the question and write down an answer.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:So many ppl threatened by those different than themselves. It’s sad. Maybe they need therapy.


It’s sad that people cannot simply acknowledge and accept that there is occasionally scientific reality and fact that goes against their personal feelings and beliefs.

There are two sexes among Homo sapiens: male and female. Sex in humans is determined by the presence of XX or XY chromosomes. That’s it. That’s all that matters. Not anatomy, not opinion, not hairstyle, not feelings, not clothing, not surgery, not hormone therapy, not gender reassignment, nothing EXCEPT chromosomes dictate sex.


It’s really frustrating and frankly - weird - like Trumpian weird - that so many people who profess to trust the science in other areas (climate, pandemic safety, vaccines, etc) so stubbornly deny the science when it comes to this subject. Then it all goes back to personal feelings.

It’s disappointing. Many of you are so much less intelligent than you think you are. It’s sad.
Anonymous

This whole take reads like an awkward ChatGPT.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A laboratory test seems like the easiest way to put this to rest.

If there are any “Y” chromosomes detected, the boxer is male. If not, the boxer is female. This is a binary outcome. One or the other. And then we’ll know the answer.


I trust science.


Then they (whoever “they” might be) should routinely test EVERY Olympic athlete — not just the ones that some random people decide don’t meet their personal Eurocentric standards for “femininity”.


Dp- But it wasn’t some “random people”. It was another athletic organization that disqualified her for being intersex/male/?
We don’t have the details, and it is sketchy.
But it’s not like Musk and Rowling were retweeting Catturd or libs of TikTok.
The boxer doesn’t have a strong case.


It was a Russian organization. That disqualified her after she won. Without specifying why. That same organization was decertified by the IOC, which allowed her (and a Taiwanese Boxer the Russian also DQ’d who won) to compete in this Olympics. And unless boxing can pull together a legit governing body, the IOC has said will not be a sport competing in the 2028 Olympics.


https://www.nbcolympics.com/news/boxings-inclusion-la-2028-games-be-decided-next-year

Now, you may be willing to take the word a Russian back organization decertified by the IOC (without knowing how they reached their decision). But some of us don’t fall for Russian propaganda and “people are saying”.

But here’s the larger point. JK Rowling called her a trans woman. This is 100% false. That would mean she had changed her gender. Again, that is 100% false. She was born a woman, it was on her birth certificate. She has lived her entire life as a woman and has a lengthy boxing career— competing as a woman. She has never identified as, been identified as or presented as a male. Now, maybe testing shows that despite female sex organs and being raised and socialized as a woman, and believing herself to be a woman, she is intersex (XXY). Or maybe not. You are putting a lot more faith in Russian than I do.

But, she is not, and never has been trans. In fact, the bizarre thing is that JK Rowling and our (fake AF) esteemed scientist want to force her to be trans. To take someone born a woman, who has always been a woman and say— you don’t look “female enough,” so you have to change your gender identity to male because you look more like a stereotypical male.

I mean, WTAF? Why are people like JK Rowling who hate trans people trying to force this woman to identify as male?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A laboratory test seems like the easiest way to put this to rest.

If there are any “Y” chromosomes detected, the boxer is male. If not, the boxer is female. This is a binary outcome. One or the other. And then we’ll know the answer.


I trust science.


According to science, it is possible for females to have Y chromosomes. It is not binary.


Are you a scientist? Because you are misreading this. It is binary. The only time it isn’t is when there is a mutation.


It's binary, except when it's not binary. So it's not actually binary.



You can keep saying this, but that doesn’t make it true. It is binary. There are only two options. An error in transcription or translation is just that - an error.


So you are saying that someone is a man, a woman, or an “error”? First, that’s not binary (bi meaning two, and even if “error” were an okay think to say about a human being, it’s still a third option) . Second— WTF is wrong with you?


An intersex person is 100% an error of nature. I am a scientist. It is what it is. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be here, or don’t count. But they are literal errors. Sorry that hurts your feelings.


+1
It’s hilarious that all the “trust the science!” people are all about science UNTIL science says something that disagrees with their feelz.

Then it becomes “it’s complicated” or “no one can really say for certain”.

Yeah, NO.


I think the objection is calling people with these "abnormalities" abnormal. Or a mistake. Or an error. It's mean. Unnecessary. And rude af. Would you call someone with other "abnormalities" resulting in physical or mental disabilities a mistake?

No. You wouldn't.


I wouldn’t be shocked if they do.


Scientifically I absolutely do. Why does that shock you?


You would tell parents of a child with Downs Syndrome that their kid is a mistake?


Also gay kids? Mistakes
Kids with any genetic disorder? Mistakes

But, this same crew wants to make sure you can’t abort that mistake, even if the genetic “mistake” is incompatible with life.

Like— you are carrying an “error”. And must carry that error to term and them raise that kid while we make their life a living he11 because they
are ”mistakes”.

How very Nazi of you.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how any of this is an issue. There are a tiny percentage of human beings that are born intersex. Which, fine. All accommodations should be made. But - scientifically - men are stronger, faster, have more endurance etc. Sure, Sydney McLauglin is going to beat your grandpa at anything. But she is not beating the times of the best male athletes. Intersex athletes like Caster Semenya and Imane Khalif have an unfair advantage. We all know that. They should compete with the men.

And running is one thing. But using that testosterone advantage for boxing? I mean, c'mon. Not remotely fair. It is abusive.


It's not actually that rare. It's like 2% of the population. And to the extent it provides an athletic advantage, they likely show up disproportionately among female athletes. Many elite female athletes have "manly" looks to them. I would not be surprised if a good number of female weightlifters, wrestlers, judo/taekwando, throwers, runners, etc. are intersex. For that matter, how do you know that Sydney McLaughlin is not intersex? Do you have her genetic tests? She's obviously pretty hot, but she's got a pretty square jawline.


It is actually much more rare than 2%. The study actually claims 1.7% so you are already misleading by rounding up that much. Also:

“Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, and late-onset adrenal hyperplasia.”
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A laboratory test seems like the easiest way to put this to rest.

If there are any “Y” chromosomes detected, the boxer is male. If not, the boxer is female. This is a binary outcome. One or the other. And then we’ll know the answer.


I trust science.


According to science, it is possible for females to have Y chromosomes. It is not binary.


Are you a scientist? Because you are misreading this. It is binary. The only time it isn’t is when there is a mutation.


It's binary, except when it's not binary. So it's not actually binary.



You can keep saying this, but that doesn’t make it true. It is binary. There are only two options. An error in transcription or translation is just that - an error.


So you are saying that someone is a man, a woman, or an “error”? First, that’s not binary (bi meaning two, and even if “error” were an okay think to say about a human being, it’s still a third option) . Second— WTF is wrong with you?


An intersex person is 100% an error of nature. I am a scientist. It is what it is. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be here, or don’t count. But they are literal errors. Sorry that hurts your feelings.


+1
It’s hilarious that all the “trust the science!” people are all about science UNTIL science says something that disagrees with their feelz.

Then it becomes “it’s complicated” or “no one can really say for certain”.

Yeah, NO.


I think the objection is calling people with these "abnormalities" abnormal. Or a mistake. Or an error. It's mean. Unnecessary. And rude af. Would you call someone with other "abnormalities" resulting in physical or mental disabilities a mistake?

No. You wouldn't.


I wouldn’t be shocked if they do.


Scientifically I absolutely do. Why does that shock you?


You would tell parents of a child with Downs Syndrome that their kid is a mistake?


Also gay kids? Mistakes
Kids with any genetic disorder? Mistakes

But, this same crew wants to make sure you can’t abort that mistake, even if the genetic “mistake” is incompatible with life.

Like— you are carrying an “error”. And must carry that error to term and them raise that kid while we make their life a living he11 because they
are ”mistakes”.

How very Nazi of you.


I am who you are replying to. I am pro choice.
Anything else you’d like to assume?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:And 83% of female athletes want sex testing, but the IOC doesn’t care.


Cite?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Look, I do feel its complex to allow trans women into women's sports. But that's not the issue with Imane. A lot of people misunderstood what was going on and apologized once they realized they were wrong. Has Rowling apologized for mischaracterizing the situation? Has Musk?


What did Rowling get wrong? Be specific.


Troll.


Sounds like you can’t find anything incorrect about her statements. You just hate her because she supports women. Typical.


Regardless if Khelif actually is a genetic anomaly, she was raised as a woman in a country where women have limited options. She had to fight tooth and nail to be a woman in boxing. She experienced gender discrimination.

She has lived the life of a woman with all the parts and baggage. And YET..Rowling dismissed all that, all the struggles she supposedly cares about, because Khelif MAY have a DSD, which is nowhere near the same as being a man.

So she only seems to care about certain kinds of women, which is ERFish (not TERFish).


Depending the DSD, Khelif would still be male even if his parents call him she and put him in dresses. Having a DSD does not make one non male necessarily.



Yeah well, it is all speculation. And intersex indicates that sex is really more bimodal than binary. If we accept that ANY presence of an X or Y makes someone male or female, than we ignore that XY gonadal dysgenesis (with Y chromosome, but dysfunctional SRY group) exists, which presents externally as female. 46,XX/46,XY chimerism also exists, which can result in either indeterminate sex characteristics or just entirely male or female presentation.

To add: an XY-female who has an Y-chromosome but either suffers from androgen insensitivity or a damaged SRY-gene is not a "male" as we know it, no more than an XX-male with a translocated SRY-gene to one of the other chromosomes is a “female."

It is just too complicated, so why not keep it simple. Birth certificates. Otherwise, we have to also account for other anomalies like height and lung capacity and musculature.



Boxing already has strict weight classes and (supposedly) strict sex classes. Other sport governing bodies have rules for intersex athletes. For example, running allows intersex women to compete in the women's races if they take testosterone lowering medication. When Caster Semenya started taking testosterone lowering medication, she lost races and then retired.

The problem is that the IOC got into a tiff with the boxing governing body, that had rules for intersex athletes, but the IOC disqualified the boxing governing body and didn't bother to come up with rules for boxing. They are requiring a new boxing governing body for the next Olympics. And at that time, these two women may or may not be eligible.


Caster never should be allowed to compete with women, as he is a male who has fathered children. No woman fathers children. [/quote]

You keep saying this, but I do not think this is true. Her children with her wife were conceived via AI, but as Semenyes said herself: "On the outside, I am female. I have a vagina, but I do not have a uterus. I do not menstruate and my body produces an elevated amount of testosterone, which gives me more typically masculine characteristics than other women, such as a deeper voice and fewer curves. I cannot carry a child because I don't have a womb. But contrary to what many people think, I do not produce sperm. I can't biologically contribute to making new life""
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