The future of Russia. Any foreign policy experts want to weigh in?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am Russian but have lived in the US for over a decade
I still have family there so I visit regularly and have been going even after the invasion (it’s become much more expensive and cumbersome fyi)
My guess is that Russia will be Iran on steroids. A geriatric regime, extremely conservative and on the brink of dictatorship (but not to the extent of North Korea). The economy will be militarized (the so called mobilization economy), people won’t starve and will be able to move freely (finances permitting). However there will be no innovation and not much vibrancy if you know what I mean. However there is a rich legacy of kitchen cultural life from the soviet times, as well as post soviet cultural renaissance, so it not going to be all doom and gloom.
Yes there will be brain drain but also there will be a sufficient number of technically talented people who are believers and can keep the austere military economy afloat. And there is a certain taste for overcoming difficulties in the “genes” of the population.
As for the war, it will be a slow churn, one step forward and two steps back. I feel bad for the annexed regions and their population. They will suffer no matter the outcome.
Some parts of Russia might be under shelling too (some already are but I mean cities and not just Belgorod).
Basically, there will be life but no one without ties to Russia will want to live a life like that.

Interesting! Does your family have access to information or are they also blinded by the Russian propaganda machine? Do you enlighten them?
Also, do you think that the "overcoming difficulties" gene is still strong, especially after Western exposure and luxuries? Even with the youth? I'd think it'd be waning.

Family: it depends. None of them is totally blinded by the propaganda but they all think that Ukraine went too far in trying to be with the West and rejecting Russia, the Russian language, etc.
They don’t phrase it like that but that’s the essence.
None of them can face the fact that the war, the power struggle was a huge mistake. They think there is “something” to it. Even those who think Putin and his cronies are criminals etc
I tried to share my POV but while they are all respectful they clearly think I have been brainwashed
The “overcoming difficulties” gene is still there in a lot of people. One of the things that surprised me in connection with this war is how few people have actually been exposed to Western values and luxury beyond Burger King and such. And Chinese phones are preferred over Apple by and large

They don't understand and accept that Ukraine moving to the West and rejecting Russia is a direct result of Russia's continual meddling and corrupting of Ukraine, their invasion in 2014?
They don't understand that it is Russia's own belligerent behavior that is also pushing Finland and Sweden into NATO?

Why did Russia invade in 2014?

In 2014, Ukraine wanted to join the EU. But Putin didn't want this, so he had his corrupt, criminal puppet Yanukovich betray and derail them. Students began protesting, Yanukovich sent Berkut to violently beat them down, this violence made a lot of people upset causing the protests to escalate, ultimately resulting in Yanukovich's ouster. Putin invaded out of revenge for Yanukovich's ouster.

DP. I want $1K and will never get it. These were the chances that Ukraine would join EU any time soon. This is a very superficial explanation of why Russia invaded and what Ukrainian Maidan leaders wanted.

Superficial? I'd suggest some superficiality on your part to casually ignore that the Verkhovna Rada voted on the Ukraine-EU agreement and it passed with a solid majority, before Yanukovich unilaterally scuttled the deal and announced that Ukraine would instead pursue closer ties with Russia.

The EU would not have signed it without significant changes and it was heavily conditioned on a number of things
Honestly I am surprised Russia seemed so upset by it. Europe was trying to lure Ukraine in but it wasn’t going to make it easy
But of course Ukraine shouldn’t have angered the bear without any real chances of getting anything
I don’t believe they didn’t know it was all illusion and they had a long way ahead of them
There must have been something else. Like maybe politicians just using some popular gimmicks to stay in power

Well, that's quite a take. I certainly don't think everyone that was pro-Maidan was as pure as the driven snow, but I also don't think it's a real stretch to believe that the relatively young population of Ukraine wanted something different than to be a Putin puppet state. If anyone overplayed their hand here, it's Putin, time and again.

I don’t blame them, I would rather have American or any of the EU citizenships than Russian, too.
However they needed to be realistic. The West wasn’t going to welcome them with open arms. Russia wasn’t going to let go of what it considered theirs.
This whole illusion of Ukraine being Europe (or worse, a cynical lie by certain politicians) is what brought Ukraine to a sad state it is in now.
Is it fair that it can’t leave Russia’s orbit, at least without major destruction? No! But is it true? Certainly yes.

I don't know that I agree with this. We can quibble about what "open arms" means here, but the fact that the West was rooting for Ukraine to succeed/stand on its own is exactly the issue. Too bad if Putin has a different interpretation of "his" than the rest of the world.

The west didn’t and doesn’t care about Ukraine one bit. I am not talking about gullible Americans but the governments. They care about having a stable predictable neighbor and about not letting Russia or China or anyone for that matter become strong enough to threaten the US and its allies.
This was the whole reason of dangling the EU carrot in front of Ukraine and Georgia. Apparently Georgians were a little smarter to keep their mouths shut about their EU ambitions and also more lucky since they are of less value to Russia than Ukraine. So now Ukraine bears the brunt of the Russian anger.
Again, I am not defending Russia but just explaining the reasoning

The west likes stability, and it likes good trade partners. And I know of a lot of Americans who worked with Ukraine and viewed Ukraine very favorably. Ukraine has a lot of good software developers and other innovators, in addition to its more traditional economy. If they didn't truly care about Ukraine there wouldn't even have been any carrots dangled.

Maybe we just have different definitions of care

Well, we've clearly and repeatedly seen the Russian definition of "care" - it's "do what we tell you to or we will blast your town into rubble and send any survivors that were left to freeze and starve to death in the middle of nowhere." I'll take western care over Russian care, thank you.

I can't tell if you're describing Iraq or Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

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But thanks for helping me prove my original point (despite the distractors) is still valid. The claim that this very ethnically diverse area was EVER "predominantly (red) Russian" would be a false claim. You might try to argue that Russia "conquered" the region by Stalin from a nationality standpoint, but it was never ethnically Russian. Since this part of history is never taught to Russians (yet people affected may remember and pass down to generations), Russian propagandists often trip themselves up by making statements they believe are true, but the locals / natives know are not.

Stalin's deportations are common knowledge. I was in high school in the late eighties and it was part of the history curriculum.

You are a propagandist, rewriting reality and claiming things that are obviously, provably wrong.

Still laughing over your stupid claim that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian". Like who? Your moron Russian studies professor?

Hmm. Since you're Russian, you probably need to directly discuss the matter directly with Simonyan. I'm sure you two would hit it off.

But if not, maybe you could watch this in the meantime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyYqWFLqeBg

Simonyan: "The fact that I work and the way I feel, I serve Russia when my Motherland, my nation sees fit. Many thanks, I bow my head. I'm still trying to earn my first medal, much less my fourth. If they see fit to give me an award, then I see it's fit to say, "I serve Russia". I say it with pride."

Commentator: "During the press conference the following day, I heard of a new goal orientatiom which [Putin] spoke about the intrical unity of Russian people which w ehave to achieve without fail. It was voiced for the first time, that all of our activities pertaining to Ukraine are mainly or largely determined through this goal. Do you see this as an advancement in our common and governmental world view, or am I exaggerating?"
Simonyan: "To me, this is not an advancement, but a more sincere and more public acknowledgement that this was always the goal. I'm sure you have no doubt that even 20 years ago Putin wanted to gather the Russian world to defend Russians and to have this opportunity. [..] Russians must be unified, or at least under protection."

Simonyan: "I think this is exactly what [Putin] meant. If we are able to defend the interests not only of Russia withim it's geographical boundaries, not only the interests of a map, but the interests of our people, the way many other nations do it; for example, the way the Jews do it, then we should use those abilities and we should expand those abilities. What do we consider the interests of Russian people? I believe this is a UN rule on nationality and ethnicity. It is not determined by blood. Have you ever tried a DNA test?"
Commentator: "I did. I was interested to see what kind of blood is in me.
Simonyan: "It's very funny, really funny what's in there. A real windbreak."
Commentator: "I often get into arguments over my wording that I will continue to use: "multinational Russian people." This is the wording that I use. I'm being attacked from both sides about this, but I believe that this is the essence of our people."
Simonyan: "There is an internationally accepted expression, it might be a UN expression, I would have to check. You're very close to it. Ethnicity* is defined by two factors: the first one is self-determination, as to whom you consider yourself and the second characteristic is the language. What is your native language. Whoever you think you are and what is your language, that is your nationality, even if you are a [black-skinned person - I can't write what she really said here since it's offensive]."

* = initially she said "ethnicity" then later changed to "nationality", so unclear which she actually meant? The funny part is look at the reactions and expressions of the other guests at the end of the clip.

Again, proves the point.

It doesn't prove anything but your stupidity and inability to read the reality.

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian. End of story.

But then again, like your ignorant ilk, you seem unable to distinguish between citizenship and ethnicity.

Please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish, I'd love to see that.

Um. Again I think you proved my point? The analogy you used ("please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish")? Replace the word "Palestinian Israeli" with Ukrainian, and "Jewish" with the Word "Russian" and you get..

Please go ahead and tell Ukrainians they are Russian, I'd love to see that.

No one said Ukrainians are Russians, stop fighting imaginary fights. Again, for the slow ones:

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian.

Number of people who think Simonyan is an ethnic Russian = zero. Excepts DCUM dummy.

Um. Well. Actually the people in Armenia doesn't think she's Armenian, so does that count?

"Konstantin Zatulin, who has been a fierce supporter of Armenia for many years, has been banned from entering Armenia by the current leader of Armenia," Simonyan wrote on Telegram. "Me too, by the way."
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hawkish-russian-broadcaster-simonyan-says-she-has-been-banned-armenia-2022-10-26/

(BTW - not sure who you were going back and forth with, but it wasn't me, so...)

Er - are you under the impression that Armenian heritage = persona automatically grata in Armenia?

"Banned to enter Armenia" equals "definitely not an ethnic Armenian"? In which twisted logic?

This is an anonymous forum so it's hard to say who's going back and forth with who, but my original label "moron" is reserved for the person who breathlessly announced that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian and she isn't!" Since, well, hey, Simonyan.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am Russian but have lived in the US for over a decade
I still have family there so I visit regularly and have been going even after the invasion (it’s become much more expensive and cumbersome fyi)
My guess is that Russia will be Iran on steroids. A geriatric regime, extremely conservative and on the brink of dictatorship (but not to the extent of North Korea). The economy will be militarized (the so called mobilization economy), people won’t starve and will be able to move freely (finances permitting). However there will be no innovation and not much vibrancy if you know what I mean. However there is a rich legacy of kitchen cultural life from the soviet times, as well as post soviet cultural renaissance, so it not going to be all doom and gloom.
Yes there will be brain drain but also there will be a sufficient number of technically talented people who are believers and can keep the austere military economy afloat. And there is a certain taste for overcoming difficulties in the “genes” of the population.
As for the war, it will be a slow churn, one step forward and two steps back. I feel bad for the annexed regions and their population. They will suffer no matter the outcome.
Some parts of Russia might be under shelling too (some already are but I mean cities and not just Belgorod).
Basically, there will be life but no one without ties to Russia will want to live a life like that.

Interesting! Does your family have access to information or are they also blinded by the Russian propaganda machine? Do you enlighten them?
Also, do you think that the "overcoming difficulties" gene is still strong, especially after Western exposure and luxuries? Even with the youth? I'd think it'd be waning.

Family: it depends. None of them is totally blinded by the propaganda but they all think that Ukraine went too far in trying to be with the West and rejecting Russia, the Russian language, etc.
They don’t phrase it like that but that’s the essence.
None of them can face the fact that the war, the power struggle was a huge mistake. They think there is “something” to it. Even those who think Putin and his cronies are criminals etc
I tried to share my POV but while they are all respectful they clearly think I have been brainwashed
The “overcoming difficulties” gene is still there in a lot of people. One of the things that surprised me in connection with this war is how few people have actually been exposed to Western values and luxury beyond Burger King and such. And Chinese phones are preferred over Apple by and large

They don't understand and accept that Ukraine moving to the West and rejecting Russia is a direct result of Russia's continual meddling and corrupting of Ukraine, their invasion in 2014?
They don't understand that it is Russia's own belligerent behavior that is also pushing Finland and Sweden into NATO?

Why did Russia invade in 2014?

In 2014, Ukraine wanted to join the EU. But Putin didn't want this, so he had his corrupt, criminal puppet Yanukovich betray and derail them. Students began protesting, Yanukovich sent Berkut to violently beat them down, this violence made a lot of people upset causing the protests to escalate, ultimately resulting in Yanukovich's ouster. Putin invaded out of revenge for Yanukovich's ouster.

DP. I want $1K and will never get it. These were the chances that Ukraine would join EU any time soon. This is a very superficial explanation of why Russia invaded and what Ukrainian Maidan leaders wanted.

Superficial? I'd suggest some superficiality on your part to casually ignore that the Verkhovna Rada voted on the Ukraine-EU agreement and it passed with a solid majority, before Yanukovich unilaterally scuttled the deal and announced that Ukraine would instead pursue closer ties with Russia.

The EU would not have signed it without significant changes and it was heavily conditioned on a number of things
Honestly I am surprised Russia seemed so upset by it. Europe was trying to lure Ukraine in but it wasn’t going to make it easy
But of course Ukraine shouldn’t have angered the bear without any real chances of getting anything
I don’t believe they didn’t know it was all illusion and they had a long way ahead of them
There must have been something else. Like maybe politicians just using some popular gimmicks to stay in power

Well, that's quite a take. I certainly don't think everyone that was pro-Maidan was as pure as the driven snow, but I also don't think it's a real stretch to believe that the relatively young population of Ukraine wanted something different than to be a Putin puppet state. If anyone overplayed their hand here, it's Putin, time and again.

I don’t blame them, I would rather have American or any of the EU citizenships than Russian, too.
However they needed to be realistic. The West wasn’t going to welcome them with open arms. Russia wasn’t going to let go of what it considered theirs.
This whole illusion of Ukraine being Europe (or worse, a cynical lie by certain politicians) is what brought Ukraine to a sad state it is in now.
Is it fair that it can’t leave Russia’s orbit, at least without major destruction? No! But is it true? Certainly yes.

I don't know that I agree with this. We can quibble about what "open arms" means here, but the fact that the West was rooting for Ukraine to succeed/stand on its own is exactly the issue. Too bad if Putin has a different interpretation of "his" than the rest of the world.

The west didn’t and doesn’t care about Ukraine one bit. I am not talking about gullible Americans but the governments. They care about having a stable predictable neighbor and about not letting Russia or China or anyone for that matter become strong enough to threaten the US and its allies.
This was the whole reason of dangling the EU carrot in front of Ukraine and Georgia. Apparently Georgians were a little smarter to keep their mouths shut about their EU ambitions and also more lucky since they are of less value to Russia than Ukraine. So now Ukraine bears the brunt of the Russian anger.
Again, I am not defending Russia but just explaining the reasoning

The west likes stability, and it likes good trade partners. And I know of a lot of Americans who worked with Ukraine and viewed Ukraine very favorably. Ukraine has a lot of good software developers and other innovators, in addition to its more traditional economy. If they didn't truly care about Ukraine there wouldn't even have been any carrots dangled.

Maybe we just have different definitions of care

Well, we've clearly and repeatedly seen the Russian definition of "care" - it's "do what we tell you to or we will blast your town into rubble and send any survivors that were left to freeze and starve to death in the middle of nowhere." I'll take western care over Russian care, thank you.

I can't tell if you're describing Iraq or Ukraine.

Russia definitely did this to Chechens. And now they are doing it to Ukraine as well. Totally beyond me what your weird insinuatin about "Iraq" is supposed to mean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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But thanks for helping me prove my original point (despite the distractors) is still valid. The claim that this very ethnically diverse area was EVER "predominantly (red) Russian" would be a false claim. You might try to argue that Russia "conquered" the region by Stalin from a nationality standpoint, but it was never ethnically Russian. Since this part of history is never taught to Russians (yet people affected may remember and pass down to generations), Russian propagandists often trip themselves up by making statements they believe are true, but the locals / natives know are not.

Stalin's deportations are common knowledge. I was in high school in the late eighties and it was part of the history curriculum.

You are a propagandist, rewriting reality and claiming things that are obviously, provably wrong.

Still laughing over your stupid claim that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian". Like who? Your moron Russian studies professor?

Hmm. Since you're Russian, you probably need to directly discuss the matter directly with Simonyan. I'm sure you two would hit it off.

But if not, maybe you could watch this in the meantime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyYqWFLqeBg

Simonyan: "The fact that I work and the way I feel, I serve Russia when my Motherland, my nation sees fit. Many thanks, I bow my head. I'm still trying to earn my first medal, much less my fourth. If they see fit to give me an award, then I see it's fit to say, "I serve Russia". I say it with pride."

Commentator: "During the press conference the following day, I heard of a new goal orientatiom which [Putin] spoke about the intrical unity of Russian people which w ehave to achieve without fail. It was voiced for the first time, that all of our activities pertaining to Ukraine are mainly or largely determined through this goal. Do you see this as an advancement in our common and governmental world view, or am I exaggerating?"
Simonyan: "To me, this is not an advancement, but a more sincere and more public acknowledgement that this was always the goal. I'm sure you have no doubt that even 20 years ago Putin wanted to gather the Russian world to defend Russians and to have this opportunity. [..] Russians must be unified, or at least under protection."

Simonyan: "I think this is exactly what [Putin] meant. If we are able to defend the interests not only of Russia withim it's geographical boundaries, not only the interests of a map, but the interests of our people, the way many other nations do it; for example, the way the Jews do it, then we should use those abilities and we should expand those abilities. What do we consider the interests of Russian people? I believe this is a UN rule on nationality and ethnicity. It is not determined by blood. Have you ever tried a DNA test?"
Commentator: "I did. I was interested to see what kind of blood is in me.
Simonyan: "It's very funny, really funny what's in there. A real windbreak."
Commentator: "I often get into arguments over my wording that I will continue to use: "multinational Russian people." This is the wording that I use. I'm being attacked from both sides about this, but I believe that this is the essence of our people."
Simonyan: "There is an internationally accepted expression, it might be a UN expression, I would have to check. You're very close to it. Ethnicity* is defined by two factors: the first one is self-determination, as to whom you consider yourself and the second characteristic is the language. What is your native language. Whoever you think you are and what is your language, that is your nationality, even if you are a [black-skinned person - I can't write what she really said here since it's offensive]."

* = initially she said "ethnicity" then later changed to "nationality", so unclear which she actually meant? The funny part is look at the reactions and expressions of the other guests at the end of the clip.

Again, proves the point.

It doesn't prove anything but your stupidity and inability to read the reality.

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian. End of story.

But then again, like your ignorant ilk, you seem unable to distinguish between citizenship and ethnicity.

Please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish, I'd love to see that.

Um. Again I think you proved my point? The analogy you used ("please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish")? Replace the word "Palestinian Israeli" with Ukrainian, and "Jewish" with the Word "Russian" and you get..

Please go ahead and tell Ukrainians they are Russian, I'd love to see that.

No one said Ukrainians are Russians, stop fighting imaginary fights. Again, for the slow ones:

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian.

Number of people who think Simonyan is an ethnic Russian = zero. Excepts DCUM dummy.

Um. Well. Actually the people in Armenia doesn't think she's Armenian, so does that count?

"Konstantin Zatulin, who has been a fierce supporter of Armenia for many years, has been banned from entering Armenia by the current leader of Armenia," Simonyan wrote on Telegram. "Me too, by the way."
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hawkish-russian-broadcaster-simonyan-says-she-has-been-banned-armenia-2022-10-26/

(BTW - not sure who you were going back and forth with, but it wasn't me, so...)

Er - are you under the impression that Armenian heritage = persona automatically grata in Armenia?

"Banned to enter Armenia" equals "definitely not an ethnic Armenian"? In which twisted logic?

This is an anonymous forum so it's hard to say who's going back and forth with who, but my original label "moron" is reserved for the person who breathlessly announced that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian and she isn't!" Since, well, hey, Simonyan.

She's ethnically Armenian but I could totally see how some other Armenians might look upon her as a Putin sycophant and Russian boot licker.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Russian but have lived in the US for over a decade
I still have family there so I visit regularly and have been going even after the invasion (it’s become much more expensive and cumbersome fyi)
My guess is that Russia will be Iran on steroids. A geriatric regime, extremely conservative and on the brink of dictatorship (but not to the extent of North Korea). The economy will be militarized (the so called mobilization economy), people won’t starve and will be able to move freely (finances permitting). However there will be no innovation and not much vibrancy if you know what I mean. However there is a rich legacy of kitchen cultural life from the soviet times, as well as post soviet cultural renaissance, so it not going to be all doom and gloom.
Yes there will be brain drain but also there will be a sufficient number of technically talented people who are believers and can keep the austere military economy afloat. And there is a certain taste for overcoming difficulties in the “genes” of the population.
As for the war, it will be a slow churn, one step forward and two steps back. I feel bad for the annexed regions and their population. They will suffer no matter the outcome.
Some parts of Russia might be under shelling too (some already are but I mean cities and not just Belgorod).
Basically, there will be life but no one without ties to Russia will want to live a life like that.

Interesting! Does your family have access to information or are they also blinded by the Russian propaganda machine? Do you enlighten them?
Also, do you think that the "overcoming difficulties" gene is still strong, especially after Western exposure and luxuries? Even with the youth? I'd think it'd be waning.

Family: it depends. None of them is totally blinded by the propaganda but they all think that Ukraine went too far in trying to be with the West and rejecting Russia, the Russian language, etc.
They don’t phrase it like that but that’s the essence.
None of them can face the fact that the war, the power struggle was a huge mistake. They think there is “something” to it. Even those who think Putin and his cronies are criminals etc
I tried to share my POV but while they are all respectful they clearly think I have been brainwashed
The “overcoming difficulties” gene is still there in a lot of people. One of the things that surprised me in connection with this war is how few people have actually been exposed to Western values and luxury beyond Burger King and such. And Chinese phones are preferred over Apple by and large

They don't understand and accept that Ukraine moving to the West and rejecting Russia is a direct result of Russia's continual meddling and corrupting of Ukraine, their invasion in 2014?
They don't understand that it is Russia's own belligerent behavior that is also pushing Finland and Sweden into NATO?

Why did Russia invade in 2014?

In 2014, Ukraine wanted to join the EU. But Putin didn't want this, so he had his corrupt, criminal puppet Yanukovich betray and derail them. Students began protesting, Yanukovich sent Berkut to violently beat them down, this violence made a lot of people upset causing the protests to escalate, ultimately resulting in Yanukovich's ouster. Putin invaded out of revenge for Yanukovich's ouster.

DP. I want $1K and will never get it. These were the chances that Ukraine would join EU any time soon. This is a very superficial explanation of why Russia invaded and what Ukrainian Maidan leaders wanted.

Superficial? I'd suggest some superficiality on your part to casually ignore that the Verkhovna Rada voted on the Ukraine-EU agreement and it passed with a solid majority, before Yanukovich unilaterally scuttled the deal and announced that Ukraine would instead pursue closer ties with Russia.

The EU would not have signed it without significant changes and it was heavily conditioned on a number of things
Honestly I am surprised Russia seemed so upset by it. Europe was trying to lure Ukraine in but it wasn’t going to make it easy
But of course Ukraine shouldn’t have angered the bear without any real chances of getting anything
I don’t believe they didn’t know it was all illusion and they had a long way ahead of them
There must have been something else. Like maybe politicians just using some popular gimmicks to stay in power

Well, that's quite a take. I certainly don't think everyone that was pro-Maidan was as pure as the driven snow, but I also don't think it's a real stretch to believe that the relatively young population of Ukraine wanted something different than to be a Putin puppet state. If anyone overplayed their hand here, it's Putin, time and again.

I don’t blame them, I would rather have American or any of the EU citizenships than Russian, too.
However they needed to be realistic. The West wasn’t going to welcome them with open arms. Russia wasn’t going to let go of what it considered theirs.
This whole illusion of Ukraine being Europe (or worse, a cynical lie by certain politicians) is what brought Ukraine to a sad state it is in now.
Is it fair that it can’t leave Russia’s orbit, at least without major destruction? No! But is it true? Certainly yes.

I don't know that I agree with this. We can quibble about what "open arms" means here, but the fact that the West was rooting for Ukraine to succeed/stand on its own is exactly the issue. Too bad if Putin has a different interpretation of "his" than the rest of the world.

The west didn’t and doesn’t care about Ukraine one bit. I am not talking about gullible Americans but the governments. They care about having a stable predictable neighbor and about not letting Russia or China or anyone for that matter become strong enough to threaten the US and its allies.
This was the whole reason of dangling the EU carrot in front of Ukraine and Georgia. Apparently Georgians were a little smarter to keep their mouths shut about their EU ambitions and also more lucky since they are of less value to Russia than Ukraine. So now Ukraine bears the brunt of the Russian anger.
Again, I am not defending Russia but just explaining the reasoning

The west likes stability, and it likes good trade partners. And I know of a lot of Americans who worked with Ukraine and viewed Ukraine very favorably. Ukraine has a lot of good software developers and other innovators, in addition to its more traditional economy. If they didn't truly care about Ukraine there wouldn't even have been any carrots dangled.

Maybe we just have different definitions of care

Well, we've clearly and repeatedly seen the Russian definition of "care" - it's "do what we tell you to or we will blast your town into rubble and send any survivors that were left to freeze and starve to death in the middle of nowhere." I'll take western care over Russian care, thank you.

I can't tell if you're describing Iraq or Ukraine.

Russia definitely did this to Chechens. And now they are doing it to Ukraine as well. Totally beyond me what your weird insinuatin about "Iraq" is supposed to mean.

Just that your description of Russia's M.O. sounds suspiciously like...oh, every other country making war on another country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But thanks for helping me prove my original point (despite the distractors) is still valid. The claim that this very ethnically diverse area was EVER "predominantly (red) Russian" would be a false claim. You might try to argue that Russia "conquered" the region by Stalin from a nationality standpoint, but it was never ethnically Russian. Since this part of history is never taught to Russians (yet people affected may remember and pass down to generations), Russian propagandists often trip themselves up by making statements they believe are true, but the locals / natives know are not.

Stalin's deportations are common knowledge. I was in high school in the late eighties and it was part of the history curriculum.

You are a propagandist, rewriting reality and claiming things that are obviously, provably wrong.

Still laughing over your stupid claim that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian". Like who? Your moron Russian studies professor?

Hmm. Since you're Russian, you probably need to directly discuss the matter directly with Simonyan. I'm sure you two would hit it off.

But if not, maybe you could watch this in the meantime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyYqWFLqeBg

Simonyan: "The fact that I work and the way I feel, I serve Russia when my Motherland, my nation sees fit. Many thanks, I bow my head. I'm still trying to earn my first medal, much less my fourth. If they see fit to give me an award, then I see it's fit to say, "I serve Russia". I say it with pride."

Commentator: "During the press conference the following day, I heard of a new goal orientatiom which [Putin] spoke about the intrical unity of Russian people which w ehave to achieve without fail. It was voiced for the first time, that all of our activities pertaining to Ukraine are mainly or largely determined through this goal. Do you see this as an advancement in our common and governmental world view, or am I exaggerating?"
Simonyan: "To me, this is not an advancement, but a more sincere and more public acknowledgement that this was always the goal. I'm sure you have no doubt that even 20 years ago Putin wanted to gather the Russian world to defend Russians and to have this opportunity. [..] Russians must be unified, or at least under protection."

Simonyan: "I think this is exactly what [Putin] meant. If we are able to defend the interests not only of Russia withim it's geographical boundaries, not only the interests of a map, but the interests of our people, the way many other nations do it; for example, the way the Jews do it, then we should use those abilities and we should expand those abilities. What do we consider the interests of Russian people? I believe this is a UN rule on nationality and ethnicity. It is not determined by blood. Have you ever tried a DNA test?"
Commentator: "I did. I was interested to see what kind of blood is in me.
Simonyan: "It's very funny, really funny what's in there. A real windbreak."
Commentator: "I often get into arguments over my wording that I will continue to use: "multinational Russian people." This is the wording that I use. I'm being attacked from both sides about this, but I believe that this is the essence of our people."
Simonyan: "There is an internationally accepted expression, it might be a UN expression, I would have to check. You're very close to it. Ethnicity* is defined by two factors: the first one is self-determination, as to whom you consider yourself and the second characteristic is the language. What is your native language. Whoever you think you are and what is your language, that is your nationality, even if you are a [black-skinned person - I can't write what she really said here since it's offensive]."

* = initially she said "ethnicity" then later changed to "nationality", so unclear which she actually meant? The funny part is look at the reactions and expressions of the other guests at the end of the clip.

Again, proves the point.

It doesn't prove anything but your stupidity and inability to read the reality.

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian. End of story.

But then again, like your ignorant ilk, you seem unable to distinguish between citizenship and ethnicity.

Please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish, I'd love to see that.

Um. Again I think you proved my point? The analogy you used ("please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish")? Replace the word "Palestinian Israeli" with Ukrainian, and "Jewish" with the Word "Russian" and you get..

Please go ahead and tell Ukrainians they are Russian, I'd love to see that.

No one said Ukrainians are Russians, stop fighting imaginary fights. Again, for the slow ones:

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian.

Number of people who think Simonyan is an ethnic Russian = zero. Excepts DCUM dummy.

Um. Well. Actually the people in Armenia doesn't think she's Armenian, so does that count?

"Konstantin Zatulin, who has been a fierce supporter of Armenia for many years, has been banned from entering Armenia by the current leader of Armenia," Simonyan wrote on Telegram. "Me too, by the way."
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hawkish-russian-broadcaster-simonyan-says-she-has-been-banned-armenia-2022-10-26/

(BTW - not sure who you were going back and forth with, but it wasn't me, so...)

Er - are you under the impression that Armenian heritage = persona automatically grata in Armenia?

"Banned to enter Armenia" equals "definitely not an ethnic Armenian"? In which twisted logic?

This is an anonymous forum so it's hard to say who's going back and forth with who, but my original label "moron" is reserved for the person who breathlessly announced that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian and she isn't!" Since, well, hey, Simonyan.

She's ethnically Armenian but I could totally see how some other Armenians might look upon her as a Putin sycophant and Russian boot licker.

"Armenian" is a description of ethnic makeup, not of moral qualities.

But I see that four pages later, we are FINALLY in agreement that she is, in fact, not an ethnic Russian, and it is not at all a secret a moron PP claimed it was. Encouraging!

[Anonymous]

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But thanks for helping me prove my original point (despite the distractors) is still valid. The claim that this very ethnically diverse area was EVER "predominantly (red) Russian" would be a false claim. You might try to argue that Russia "conquered" the region by Stalin from a nationality standpoint, but it was never ethnically Russian. Since this part of history is never taught to Russians (yet people affected may remember and pass down to generations), Russian propagandists often trip themselves up by making statements they believe are true, but the locals / natives know are not.

Stalin's deportations are common knowledge. I was in high school in the late eighties and it was part of the history curriculum.

You are a propagandist, rewriting reality and claiming things that are obviously, provably wrong.

Still laughing over your stupid claim that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian". Like who? Your moron Russian studies professor?

Hmm. Since you're Russian, you probably need to directly discuss the matter directly with Simonyan. I'm sure you two would hit it off.

But if not, maybe you could watch this in the meantime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyYqWFLqeBg

Simonyan: "The fact that I work and the way I feel, I serve Russia when my Motherland, my nation sees fit. Many thanks, I bow my head. I'm still trying to earn my first medal, much less my fourth. If they see fit to give me an award, then I see it's fit to say, "I serve Russia". I say it with pride."

Commentator: "During the press conference the following day, I heard of a new goal orientatiom which [Putin] spoke about the intrical unity of Russian people which w ehave to achieve without fail. It was voiced for the first time, that all of our activities pertaining to Ukraine are mainly or largely determined through this goal. Do you see this as an advancement in our common and governmental world view, or am I exaggerating?"
Simonyan: "To me, this is not an advancement, but a more sincere and more public acknowledgement that this was always the goal. I'm sure you have no doubt that even 20 years ago Putin wanted to gather the Russian world to defend Russians and to have this opportunity. [..] Russians must be unified, or at least under protection."

Simonyan: "I think this is exactly what [Putin] meant. If we are able to defend the interests not only of Russia withim it's geographical boundaries, not only the interests of a map, but the interests of our people, the way many other nations do it; for example, the way the Jews do it, then we should use those abilities and we should expand those abilities. What do we consider the interests of Russian people? I believe this is a UN rule on nationality and ethnicity. It is not determined by blood. Have you ever tried a DNA test?"
Commentator: "I did. I was interested to see what kind of blood is in me.
Simonyan: "It's very funny, really funny what's in there. A real windbreak."
Commentator: "I often get into arguments over my wording that I will continue to use: "multinational Russian people." This is the wording that I use. I'm being attacked from both sides about this, but I believe that this is the essence of our people."
Simonyan: "There is an internationally accepted expression, it might be a UN expression, I would have to check. You're very close to it. Ethnicity* is defined by two factors: the first one is self-determination, as to whom you consider yourself and the second characteristic is the language. What is your native language. Whoever you think you are and what is your language, that is your nationality, even if you are a [black-skinned person - I can't write what she really said here since it's offensive]."

* = initially she said "ethnicity" then later changed to "nationality", so unclear which she actually meant? The funny part is look at the reactions and expressions of the other guests at the end of the clip.

Again, proves the point.

It doesn't prove anything but your stupidity and inability to read the reality.

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian. End of story.

But then again, like your ignorant ilk, you seem unable to distinguish between citizenship and ethnicity.

Please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish, I'd love to see that.

Um. Again I think you proved my point? The analogy you used ("please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish")? Replace the word "Palestinian Israeli" with Ukrainian, and "Jewish" with the Word "Russian" and you get..

Please go ahead and tell Ukrainians they are Russian, I'd love to see that.

No one said Ukrainians are Russians, stop fighting imaginary fights. Again, for the slow ones:

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian.

Number of people who think Simonyan is an ethnic Russian = zero. Excepts DCUM dummy.

DP.... i'd consider her to be a Russified Armenian, one who'd probably be too cowardly to say anything if Putin went after Armenians and would continue to cheer Russia on if Armenians were genocided. Similar to how Ramzan Kadyrov is still a Z fanboy despite all of the horrible things Russia did to the Chechen people.

Russia did horrible things to Chechens?! LOL. How about Chechens becoming full of themselves after the USSR fell apart and doing horrible things to ethnic Russians who lived there. Also wanting independence that was absolutely impossible. I can’t think of a single country who would grant them independence in place of Russia.

"LOL" says someone about repeated Russian genocides against Chechens.

During the Russian conquest of the Caucasus in the 1800s, hundreds of thousands were killed or displaced. There were as many as 1.5 million Chechens in the Caucasus in 1847, but as a result of war and expulsions, their number dropped to 140,000 in 1861, and then further to 116,000 by 1867.

And again in 1944, Russia committed genocide against Chechens, accusing them of being "Nazis" even though the Nazis were unsuccessful in recruiting Chechens. NKVD and thousands of Russian troops arrived and forced nearly 400,000 Chechens onto rail cars. 700 Chechens who resisted were locked in a barn and burned to death. Those who moved to slowly were shot. A quarter of them died as they were displaced, from freezing to death in uninsulated rail cars in extreme cold to starvation.

But "LOL genocide ha ha" says the PP. Astounding.
"They weren't treated horribly." Astounding.
No clue why some Chechens might harbor some resentment, distrust and animosity toward Russians. Astounding.

Chechens have never been independent, and outside of subsistence societies, have never been self-sufficient, either.

The brief time in history when they were kinda sorta independent produced thousands of salafi fighters, beheaded aid workers by the side of the road, and rank lawlessness of the kind that even the locals rebelled against. And let's not forget the world's most famous Chechen, Mr. Dzhohar Tsarnaev.

You and your posts are undeniably, unquestionably, disgustingly, horrifyingly racist. At least Trump hedged it with “and some I assume are very fine people”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am Russian but have lived in the US for over a decade
I still have family there so I visit regularly and have been going even after the invasion (it’s become much more expensive and cumbersome fyi)
My guess is that Russia will be Iran on steroids. A geriatric regime, extremely conservative and on the brink of dictatorship (but not to the extent of North Korea). The economy will be militarized (the so called mobilization economy), people won’t starve and will be able to move freely (finances permitting). However there will be no innovation and not much vibrancy if you know what I mean. However there is a rich legacy of kitchen cultural life from the soviet times, as well as post soviet cultural renaissance, so it not going to be all doom and gloom.
Yes there will be brain drain but also there will be a sufficient number of technically talented people who are believers and can keep the austere military economy afloat. And there is a certain taste for overcoming difficulties in the “genes” of the population.
As for the war, it will be a slow churn, one step forward and two steps back. I feel bad for the annexed regions and their population. They will suffer no matter the outcome.
Some parts of Russia might be under shelling too (some already are but I mean cities and not just Belgorod).
Basically, there will be life but no one without ties to Russia will want to live a life like that.

Interesting! Does your family have access to information or are they also blinded by the Russian propaganda machine? Do you enlighten them?
Also, do you think that the "overcoming difficulties" gene is still strong, especially after Western exposure and luxuries? Even with the youth? I'd think it'd be waning.

Family: it depends. None of them is totally blinded by the propaganda but they all think that Ukraine went too far in trying to be with the West and rejecting Russia, the Russian language, etc.
They don’t phrase it like that but that’s the essence.
None of them can face the fact that the war, the power struggle was a huge mistake. They think there is “something” to it. Even those who think Putin and his cronies are criminals etc
I tried to share my POV but while they are all respectful they clearly think I have been brainwashed
The “overcoming difficulties” gene is still there in a lot of people. One of the things that surprised me in connection with this war is how few people have actually been exposed to Western values and luxury beyond Burger King and such. And Chinese phones are preferred over Apple by and large

They don't understand and accept that Ukraine moving to the West and rejecting Russia is a direct result of Russia's continual meddling and corrupting of Ukraine, their invasion in 2014?
They don't understand that it is Russia's own belligerent behavior that is also pushing Finland and Sweden into NATO?

Why did Russia invade in 2014?

In 2014, Ukraine wanted to join the EU. But Putin didn't want this, so he had his corrupt, criminal puppet Yanukovich betray and derail them. Students began protesting, Yanukovich sent Berkut to violently beat them down, this violence made a lot of people upset causing the protests to escalate, ultimately resulting in Yanukovich's ouster. Putin invaded out of revenge for Yanukovich's ouster.

DP. I want $1K and will never get it. These were the chances that Ukraine would join EU any time soon. This is a very superficial explanation of why Russia invaded and what Ukrainian Maidan leaders wanted.

Superficial? I'd suggest some superficiality on your part to casually ignore that the Verkhovna Rada voted on the Ukraine-EU agreement and it passed with a solid majority, before Yanukovich unilaterally scuttled the deal and announced that Ukraine would instead pursue closer ties with Russia.

The EU would not have signed it without significant changes and it was heavily conditioned on a number of things
Honestly I am surprised Russia seemed so upset by it. Europe was trying to lure Ukraine in but it wasn’t going to make it easy
But of course Ukraine shouldn’t have angered the bear without any real chances of getting anything
I don’t believe they didn’t know it was all illusion and they had a long way ahead of them
There must have been something else. Like maybe politicians just using some popular gimmicks to stay in power

Well, that's quite a take. I certainly don't think everyone that was pro-Maidan was as pure as the driven snow, but I also don't think it's a real stretch to believe that the relatively young population of Ukraine wanted something different than to be a Putin puppet state. If anyone overplayed their hand here, it's Putin, time and again.

I don’t blame them, I would rather have American or any of the EU citizenships than Russian, too.
However they needed to be realistic. The West wasn’t going to welcome them with open arms. Russia wasn’t going to let go of what it considered theirs.
This whole illusion of Ukraine being Europe (or worse, a cynical lie by certain politicians) is what brought Ukraine to a sad state it is in now.
Is it fair that it can’t leave Russia’s orbit, at least without major destruction? No! But is it true? Certainly yes.

I don't know that I agree with this. We can quibble about what "open arms" means here, but the fact that the West was rooting for Ukraine to succeed/stand on its own is exactly the issue. Too bad if Putin has a different interpretation of "his" than the rest of the world.

The west didn’t and doesn’t care about Ukraine one bit. I am not talking about gullible Americans but the governments. They care about having a stable predictable neighbor and about not letting Russia or China or anyone for that matter become strong enough to threaten the US and its allies.
This was the whole reason of dangling the EU carrot in front of Ukraine and Georgia. Apparently Georgians were a little smarter to keep their mouths shut about their EU ambitions and also more lucky since they are of less value to Russia than Ukraine. So now Ukraine bears the brunt of the Russian anger.
Again, I am not defending Russia but just explaining the reasoning

The west likes stability, and it likes good trade partners. And I know of a lot of Americans who worked with Ukraine and viewed Ukraine very favorably. Ukraine has a lot of good software developers and other innovators, in addition to its more traditional economy. If they didn't truly care about Ukraine there wouldn't even have been any carrots dangled.

Maybe we just have different definitions of care

Well, we've clearly and repeatedly seen the Russian definition of "care" - it's "do what we tell you to or we will blast your town into rubble and send any survivors that were left to freeze and starve to death in the middle of nowhere." I'll take western care over Russian care, thank you.

I can't tell if you're describing Iraq or Ukraine.

Russia definitely did this to Chechens. And now they are doing it to Ukraine as well. Totally beyond me what your weird insinuatin about "Iraq" is supposed to mean.

Just that your description of Russia's M.O. sounds suspiciously like...oh, every other country making war on another country.

I must have missed the part where the American troops in Iraq rounded up most of the Iraqis and loaded them into cattle cars with no food and water and sent them off to some wasteland in the frozen north. And burned the ones who resisted alive.

[Anonymous]

I know a Chechen American family who lives in the area. Great, upstanding people. US citizens and as American as anyone. One kid serving in the military. And registered Democrats which surprised me because I would assume they would be conservative, but one of the kids is even what you would call “woke.” I know another Chechen family who are doctors, business owners, real estate agents. There is nothing in the DNA of Chechens or anyone else that says they can’t be good people and contributing members of society. It’s about having and creating a society worth contributing to, and I don’t think the Russian government has provided that.

Some of you are shamefully bigoted, it’s astonishing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Russian but have lived in the US for over a decade
I still have family there so I visit regularly and have been going even after the invasion (it’s become much more expensive and cumbersome fyi)
My guess is that Russia will be Iran on steroids. A geriatric regime, extremely conservative and on the brink of dictatorship (but not to the extent of North Korea). The economy will be militarized (the so called mobilization economy), people won’t starve and will be able to move freely (finances permitting). However there will be no innovation and not much vibrancy if you know what I mean. However there is a rich legacy of kitchen cultural life from the soviet times, as well as post soviet cultural renaissance, so it not going to be all doom and gloom.
Yes there will be brain drain but also there will be a sufficient number of technically talented people who are believers and can keep the austere military economy afloat. And there is a certain taste for overcoming difficulties in the “genes” of the population.
As for the war, it will be a slow churn, one step forward and two steps back. I feel bad for the annexed regions and their population. They will suffer no matter the outcome.
Some parts of Russia might be under shelling too (some already are but I mean cities and not just Belgorod).
Basically, there will be life but no one without ties to Russia will want to live a life like that.

Interesting! Does your family have access to information or are they also blinded by the Russian propaganda machine? Do you enlighten them?
Also, do you think that the "overcoming difficulties" gene is still strong, especially after Western exposure and luxuries? Even with the youth? I'd think it'd be waning.

Family: it depends. None of them is totally blinded by the propaganda but they all think that Ukraine went too far in trying to be with the West and rejecting Russia, the Russian language, etc.
They don’t phrase it like that but that’s the essence.
None of them can face the fact that the war, the power struggle was a huge mistake. They think there is “something” to it. Even those who think Putin and his cronies are criminals etc
I tried to share my POV but while they are all respectful they clearly think I have been brainwashed
The “overcoming difficulties” gene is still there in a lot of people. One of the things that surprised me in connection with this war is how few people have actually been exposed to Western values and luxury beyond Burger King and such. And Chinese phones are preferred over Apple by and large

They don't understand and accept that Ukraine moving to the West and rejecting Russia is a direct result of Russia's continual meddling and corrupting of Ukraine, their invasion in 2014?
They don't understand that it is Russia's own belligerent behavior that is also pushing Finland and Sweden into NATO?

Why did Russia invade in 2014?

In 2014, Ukraine wanted to join the EU. But Putin didn't want this, so he had his corrupt, criminal puppet Yanukovich betray and derail them. Students began protesting, Yanukovich sent Berkut to violently beat them down, this violence made a lot of people upset causing the protests to escalate, ultimately resulting in Yanukovich's ouster. Putin invaded out of revenge for Yanukovich's ouster.

DP. I want $1K and will never get it. These were the chances that Ukraine would join EU any time soon. This is a very superficial explanation of why Russia invaded and what Ukrainian Maidan leaders wanted.

Superficial? I'd suggest some superficiality on your part to casually ignore that the Verkhovna Rada voted on the Ukraine-EU agreement and it passed with a solid majority, before Yanukovich unilaterally scuttled the deal and announced that Ukraine would instead pursue closer ties with Russia.

The EU would not have signed it without significant changes and it was heavily conditioned on a number of things
Honestly I am surprised Russia seemed so upset by it. Europe was trying to lure Ukraine in but it wasn’t going to make it easy
But of course Ukraine shouldn’t have angered the bear without any real chances of getting anything
I don’t believe they didn’t know it was all illusion and they had a long way ahead of them
There must have been something else. Like maybe politicians just using some popular gimmicks to stay in power

Well, that's quite a take. I certainly don't think everyone that was pro-Maidan was as pure as the driven snow, but I also don't think it's a real stretch to believe that the relatively young population of Ukraine wanted something different than to be a Putin puppet state. If anyone overplayed their hand here, it's Putin, time and again.

I don’t blame them, I would rather have American or any of the EU citizenships than Russian, too.
However they needed to be realistic. The West wasn’t going to welcome them with open arms. Russia wasn’t going to let go of what it considered theirs.
This whole illusion of Ukraine being Europe (or worse, a cynical lie by certain politicians) is what brought Ukraine to a sad state it is in now.
Is it fair that it can’t leave Russia’s orbit, at least without major destruction? No! But is it true? Certainly yes.

I don't know that I agree with this. We can quibble about what "open arms" means here, but the fact that the West was rooting for Ukraine to succeed/stand on its own is exactly the issue. Too bad if Putin has a different interpretation of "his" than the rest of the world.

The west didn’t and doesn’t care about Ukraine one bit. I am not talking about gullible Americans but the governments. They care about having a stable predictable neighbor and about not letting Russia or China or anyone for that matter become strong enough to threaten the US and its allies.
This was the whole reason of dangling the EU carrot in front of Ukraine and Georgia. Apparently Georgians were a little smarter to keep their mouths shut about their EU ambitions and also more lucky since they are of less value to Russia than Ukraine. So now Ukraine bears the brunt of the Russian anger.
Again, I am not defending Russia but just explaining the reasoning

The west likes stability, and it likes good trade partners. And I know of a lot of Americans who worked with Ukraine and viewed Ukraine very favorably. Ukraine has a lot of good software developers and other innovators, in addition to its more traditional economy. If they didn't truly care about Ukraine there wouldn't even have been any carrots dangled.

Maybe we just have different definitions of care

Well, we've clearly and repeatedly seen the Russian definition of "care" - it's "do what we tell you to or we will blast your town into rubble and send any survivors that were left to freeze and starve to death in the middle of nowhere." I'll take western care over Russian care, thank you.

I can't tell if you're describing Iraq or Ukraine.

Russia definitely did this to Chechens. And now they are doing it to Ukraine as well. Totally beyond me what your weird insinuatin about "Iraq" is supposed to mean.

Just that your description of Russia's M.O. sounds suspiciously like...oh, every other country making war on another country.

I must have missed the part where the American troops in Iraq rounded up most of the Iraqis and loaded them into cattle cars with no food and water and sent them off to some wasteland in the frozen north. And burned the ones who resisted alive.

Did you miss half a million dead Iraqis too? Or are you only counting the dead who are white?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a Chechen American family who lives in the area. Great, upstanding people. US citizens and as American as anyone. One kid serving in the military. And registered Democrats which surprised me because I would assume they would be conservative, but one of the kids is even what you would call “woke.” I know another Chechen family who are doctors, business owners, real estate agents. There is nothing in the DNA of Chechens or anyone else that says they can’t be good people and contributing members of society. It’s about having and creating a society worth contributing to, and I don’t think the Russian government has provided that.

Some of you are shamefully bigoted, it’s astonishing.

No one said they can't be good people but people who grew up in Chechnya understand the Chechens better than you.

[Anonymous]

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But thanks for helping me prove my original point (despite the distractors) is still valid. The claim that this very ethnically diverse area was EVER "predominantly (red) Russian" would be a false claim. You might try to argue that Russia "conquered" the region by Stalin from a nationality standpoint, but it was never ethnically Russian. Since this part of history is never taught to Russians (yet people affected may remember and pass down to generations), Russian propagandists often trip themselves up by making statements they believe are true, but the locals / natives know are not.

Stalin's deportations are common knowledge. I was in high school in the late eighties and it was part of the history curriculum.

You are a propagandist, rewriting reality and claiming things that are obviously, provably wrong.

Still laughing over your stupid claim that "everyone thinks Simonyan is Russian". Like who? Your moron Russian studies professor?

Hmm. Since you're Russian, you probably need to directly discuss the matter directly with Simonyan. I'm sure you two would hit it off.

But if not, maybe you could watch this in the meantime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyYqWFLqeBg

Simonyan: "The fact that I work and the way I feel, I serve Russia when my Motherland, my nation sees fit. Many thanks, I bow my head. I'm still trying to earn my first medal, much less my fourth. If they see fit to give me an award, then I see it's fit to say, "I serve Russia". I say it with pride."

Commentator: "During the press conference the following day, I heard of a new goal orientatiom which [Putin] spoke about the intrical unity of Russian people which w ehave to achieve without fail. It was voiced for the first time, that all of our activities pertaining to Ukraine are mainly or largely determined through this goal. Do you see this as an advancement in our common and governmental world view, or am I exaggerating?"
Simonyan: "To me, this is not an advancement, but a more sincere and more public acknowledgement that this was always the goal. I'm sure you have no doubt that even 20 years ago Putin wanted to gather the Russian world to defend Russians and to have this opportunity. [..] Russians must be unified, or at least under protection."

Simonyan: "I think this is exactly what [Putin] meant. If we are able to defend the interests not only of Russia withim it's geographical boundaries, not only the interests of a map, but the interests of our people, the way many other nations do it; for example, the way the Jews do it, then we should use those abilities and we should expand those abilities. What do we consider the interests of Russian people? I believe this is a UN rule on nationality and ethnicity. It is not determined by blood. Have you ever tried a DNA test?"
Commentator: "I did. I was interested to see what kind of blood is in me.
Simonyan: "It's very funny, really funny what's in there. A real windbreak."
Commentator: "I often get into arguments over my wording that I will continue to use: "multinational Russian people." This is the wording that I use. I'm being attacked from both sides about this, but I believe that this is the essence of our people."
Simonyan: "There is an internationally accepted expression, it might be a UN expression, I would have to check. You're very close to it. Ethnicity* is defined by two factors: the first one is self-determination, as to whom you consider yourself and the second characteristic is the language. What is your native language. Whoever you think you are and what is your language, that is your nationality, even if you are a [black-skinned person - I can't write what she really said here since it's offensive]."

* = initially she said "ethnicity" then later changed to "nationality", so unclear which she actually meant? The funny part is look at the reactions and expressions of the other guests at the end of the clip.

Again, proves the point.

It doesn't prove anything but your stupidity and inability to read the reality.

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian. End of story.

But then again, like your ignorant ilk, you seem unable to distinguish between citizenship and ethnicity.

Please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish, I'd love to see that.

Um. Again I think you proved my point? The analogy you used ("please go ahead and tell Palestinian Israelis they are Jewish")? Replace the word "Palestinian Israeli" with Ukrainian, and "Jewish" with the Word "Russian" and you get..

Please go ahead and tell Ukrainians they are Russian, I'd love to see that.

No one said Ukrainians are Russians, stop fighting imaginary fights. Again, for the slow ones:

Simonyan=ethnic Armenian.

Number of people who think Simonyan is an ethnic Russian = zero. Excepts DCUM dummy.

DP.... i'd consider her to be a Russified Armenian, one who'd probably be too cowardly to say anything if Putin went after Armenians and would continue to cheer Russia on if Armenians were genocided. Similar to how Ramzan Kadyrov is still a Z fanboy despite all of the horrible things Russia did to the Chechen people.

Russia did horrible things to Chechens?! LOL. How about Chechens becoming full of themselves after the USSR fell apart and doing horrible things to ethnic Russians who lived there. Also wanting independence that was absolutely impossible. I can’t think of a single country who would grant them independence in place of Russia.

"LOL" says someone about repeated Russian genocides against Chechens.

During the Russian conquest of the Caucasus in the 1800s, hundreds of thousands were killed or displaced. There were as many as 1.5 million Chechens in the Caucasus in 1847, but as a result of war and expulsions, their number dropped to 140,000 in 1861, and then further to 116,000 by 1867.

And again in 1944, Russia committed genocide against Chechens, accusing them of being "Nazis" even though the Nazis were unsuccessful in recruiting Chechens. NKVD and thousands of Russian troops arrived and forced nearly 400,000 Chechens onto rail cars. 700 Chechens who resisted were locked in a barn and burned to death. Those who moved to slowly were shot. A quarter of them died as they were displaced, from freezing to death in uninsulated rail cars in extreme cold to starvation.

But "LOL genocide ha ha" says the PP. Astounding.
"They weren't treated horribly." Astounding.
No clue why some Chechens might harbor some resentment, distrust and animosity toward Russians. Astounding.

Chechens have never been independent, and outside of subsistence societies, have never been self-sufficient, either.

The brief time in history when they were kinda sorta independent produced thousands of salafi fighters, beheaded aid workers by the side of the road, and rank lawlessness of the kind that even the locals rebelled against. And let's not forget the world's most famous Chechen, Mr. Dzhohar Tsarnaev.

You and your posts are undeniably, unquestionably, disgustingly, horrifyingly racist. At least Trump hedged it with “and some I assume are very fine people”

Chechens are white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a Chechen American family who lives in the area. Great, upstanding people. US citizens and as American as anyone. One kid serving in the military. And registered Democrats which surprised me because I would assume they would be conservative, but one of the kids is even what you would call “woke.” I know another Chechen family who are doctors, business owners, real estate agents. There is nothing in the DNA of Chechens or anyone else that says they can’t be good people and contributing members of society. It’s about having and creating a society worth contributing to, and I don’t think the Russian government has provided that.

Some of you are shamefully bigoted, it’s astonishing.

No one said they can't be good people but people who grew up in Chechnya understand the Chechens better than you.

So you agree, nurture vs nature? Maybe people regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion… who are welcomed as refugees and immigrants by choice to a place with opportunity like the United States succeed better than people who, I don’t know, grew up with Russians bombing their schools and opening fire on their neighbors? And then forced back into the country that doesn’t even like them?

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Anonymous wrote:I am Russian but have lived in the US for over a decade
I still have family there so I visit regularly and have been going even after the invasion (it’s become much more expensive and cumbersome fyi)
My guess is that Russia will be Iran on steroids. A geriatric regime, extremely conservative and on the brink of dictatorship (but not to the extent of North Korea). The economy will be militarized (the so called mobilization economy), people won’t starve and will be able to move freely (finances permitting). However there will be no innovation and not much vibrancy if you know what I mean. However there is a rich legacy of kitchen cultural life from the soviet times, as well as post soviet cultural renaissance, so it not going to be all doom and gloom.
Yes there will be brain drain but also there will be a sufficient number of technically talented people who are believers and can keep the austere military economy afloat. And there is a certain taste for overcoming difficulties in the “genes” of the population.
As for the war, it will be a slow churn, one step forward and two steps back. I feel bad for the annexed regions and their population. They will suffer no matter the outcome.
Some parts of Russia might be under shelling too (some already are but I mean cities and not just Belgorod).
Basically, there will be life but no one without ties to Russia will want to live a life like that.

Interesting! Does your family have access to information or are they also blinded by the Russian propaganda machine? Do you enlighten them?
Also, do you think that the "overcoming difficulties" gene is still strong, especially after Western exposure and luxuries? Even with the youth? I'd think it'd be waning.

Family: it depends. None of them is totally blinded by the propaganda but they all think that Ukraine went too far in trying to be with the West and rejecting Russia, the Russian language, etc.
They don’t phrase it like that but that’s the essence.
None of them can face the fact that the war, the power struggle was a huge mistake. They think there is “something” to it. Even those who think Putin and his cronies are criminals etc
I tried to share my POV but while they are all respectful they clearly think I have been brainwashed
The “overcoming difficulties” gene is still there in a lot of people. One of the things that surprised me in connection with this war is how few people have actually been exposed to Western values and luxury beyond Burger King and such. And Chinese phones are preferred over Apple by and large

They don't understand and accept that Ukraine moving to the West and rejecting Russia is a direct result of Russia's continual meddling and corrupting of Ukraine, their invasion in 2014?
They don't understand that it is Russia's own belligerent behavior that is also pushing Finland and Sweden into NATO?

Why did Russia invade in 2014?

In 2014, Ukraine wanted to join the EU. But Putin didn't want this, so he had his corrupt, criminal puppet Yanukovich betray and derail them. Students began protesting, Yanukovich sent Berkut to violently beat them down, this violence made a lot of people upset causing the protests to escalate, ultimately resulting in Yanukovich's ouster. Putin invaded out of revenge for Yanukovich's ouster.

DP. I want $1K and will never get it. These were the chances that Ukraine would join EU any time soon. This is a very superficial explanation of why Russia invaded and what Ukrainian Maidan leaders wanted.

Superficial? I'd suggest some superficiality on your part to casually ignore that the Verkhovna Rada voted on the Ukraine-EU agreement and it passed with a solid majority, before Yanukovich unilaterally scuttled the deal and announced that Ukraine would instead pursue closer ties with Russia.

The EU would not have signed it without significant changes and it was heavily conditioned on a number of things
Honestly I am surprised Russia seemed so upset by it. Europe was trying to lure Ukraine in but it wasn’t going to make it easy
But of course Ukraine shouldn’t have angered the bear without any real chances of getting anything
I don’t believe they didn’t know it was all illusion and they had a long way ahead of them
There must have been something else. Like maybe politicians just using some popular gimmicks to stay in power

Well, that's quite a take. I certainly don't think everyone that was pro-Maidan was as pure as the driven snow, but I also don't think it's a real stretch to believe that the relatively young population of Ukraine wanted something different than to be a Putin puppet state. If anyone overplayed their hand here, it's Putin, time and again.

I don’t blame them, I would rather have American or any of the EU citizenships than Russian, too.
However they needed to be realistic. The West wasn’t going to welcome them with open arms. Russia wasn’t going to let go of what it considered theirs.
This whole illusion of Ukraine being Europe (or worse, a cynical lie by certain politicians) is what brought Ukraine to a sad state it is in now.
Is it fair that it can’t leave Russia’s orbit, at least without major destruction? No! But is it true? Certainly yes.

I don't know that I agree with this. We can quibble about what "open arms" means here, but the fact that the West was rooting for Ukraine to succeed/stand on its own is exactly the issue. Too bad if Putin has a different interpretation of "his" than the rest of the world.

The west didn’t and doesn’t care about Ukraine one bit. I am not talking about gullible Americans but the governments. They care about having a stable predictable neighbor and about not letting Russia or China or anyone for that matter become strong enough to threaten the US and its allies.
This was the whole reason of dangling the EU carrot in front of Ukraine and Georgia. Apparently Georgians were a little smarter to keep their mouths shut about their EU ambitions and also more lucky since they are of less value to Russia than Ukraine. So now Ukraine bears the brunt of the Russian anger.
Again, I am not defending Russia but just explaining the reasoning

The west likes stability, and it likes good trade partners. And I know of a lot of Americans who worked with Ukraine and viewed Ukraine very favorably. Ukraine has a lot of good software developers and other innovators, in addition to its more traditional economy. If they didn't truly care about Ukraine there wouldn't even have been any carrots dangled.

Maybe we just have different definitions of care

Well, we've clearly and repeatedly seen the Russian definition of "care" - it's "do what we tell you to or we will blast your town into rubble and send any survivors that were left to freeze and starve to death in the middle of nowhere." I'll take western care over Russian care, thank you.

I can't tell if you're describing Iraq or Ukraine.

Russia definitely did this to Chechens. And now they are doing it to Ukraine as well. Totally beyond me what your weird insinuatin about "Iraq" is supposed to mean.

Just that your description of Russia's M.O. sounds suspiciously like...oh, every other country making war on another country.

I must have missed the part where the American troops in Iraq rounded up most of the Iraqis and loaded them into cattle cars with no food and water and sent them off to some wasteland in the frozen north. And burned the ones who resisted alive.

Did you miss half a million dead Iraqis too? Or are you only counting the dead who are white?

Are you missing the part where American soldiers didn't kill those Iraqis? Most of them were killed by insurgents, ISIS, sectarian groups et cetera. And how disgusting of you to suggest "only counting the dead who are white."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a Chechen American family who lives in the area. Great, upstanding people. US citizens and as American as anyone. One kid serving in the military. And registered Democrats which surprised me because I would assume they would be conservative, but one of the kids is even what you would call “woke.” I know another Chechen family who are doctors, business owners, real estate agents. There is nothing in the DNA of Chechens or anyone else that says they can’t be good people and contributing members of society. It’s about having and creating a society worth contributing to, and I don’t think the Russian government has provided that.

Some of you are shamefully bigoted, it’s astonishing.

No one said they can't be good people but people who grew up in Chechnya understand the Chechens better than you.

So you agree, nurture vs nature? Maybe people regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion… who are welcomed as refugees and immigrants by choice to a place with opportunity like the United States succeed better than people who, I don’t know, grew up with Russians bombing their schools and opening fire on their neighbors? And then forced back into the country that doesn’t even like them?

Russia to Chechens: "The beatings will continue until morale improves."