Offensive post

[Anonymous]

Jeff,

At a minimum, this post is misplaced. Not to mention it is meant to be personally offensive to a group of people who frequent this board.

[jsteele]

You didn't link to the post, but I assume you mean the message opposing gay adoption.

As is my normal tendency, I am not in favor of removing the post. If I removed every offensive post, we'd have hardly any left. While I don't agree with the poster's point of view, the reality is that many people hold that view. Erasing a message does not change that fact. I think the message serves a purpose to remind everyone about the prejudice that exists out there. It presents a good opportunity for GLBT members who have or wish to adopt to explain the importance of adoption to them. Or, if this message does not deserve that level of seriousness, you can simply make fun of the poster, which was my first inclination.

Of course, if you are actually referring to a different message, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks, as they say.

[Anonymous]

I did mean the gay adoption post. Sorry for not including the link.

If you do not want to remove it, which I can understand, I would request that you consider moving it to Off-Topic or Politics.

The purpose of the Gay and Lesbian Parents Forum, as I have understood it, was to create a place for gay and lesbian parents to exchange information and for others to ask for information from gay and lesbian parents - NOT to create a place where we are subjected to this kind of hatred and bigotry. We face enough of that everywhere else.

Or, perhaps create a "Bigoted statements that I feel entitled to make to contribute to the oppression of others and/or because I simply want to troll and get people worked up for my own sick purposes" ?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

I think the message serves a purpose to remind everyone about the prejudice that exists out there.

It presents a good opportunity for GLBT members who have or wish to adopt to explain the importance of adoption to them.

[/quote

And, just to continue, in terms of the first point, again, please trust me that LGBT parents do not need reminding. If perhaps other people do, then please move it to Off-topic or Politics.

In terms of the second point, this post was clearly not an attempt to gather information. It was a statement of hatred. No more, no less. Doesn't belong in a "safe space" for LGBT parents so that every time we open the forum we will read this garbage and get the same sick feeling I got when I read it the first time.

Thanks again for you consideration.

[jsteele]

Without getting into all the related issues, I'll just address this from a practical standpoint. If I "move" the topic, a link will remain in the current forum. That link will not reflect additional messages in the thread, so it won't jump to the top each time someone posts. But, it will only drop down the list of topics as new topics are added or current topics are updated. Given the low level of traffic in the forum, it will take weeks before the link works its way off the first page.

With that in mind, I suggest this course of action:

1) you post a message to the current thread asking users to not reply so that the topic will not stay at the top of the list of topics;
2) you also create a new topic with the subject "Gay and Lesbians should be able to adopt" and ask users to post in that thread instead of the existing one.

Over time, the current thread will drop and the new thread will give a more welcoming message to forum users.

[Anonymous]

I really can't get into this anymore.

The reality is that this post was created simply as AN ACT OF HATE. It was clearly not created as an attempt to gather information or create discussion. It wasn't someone saying on a thread about adoption by LGBT people that they didn't feel comfortable with it, etc. - it was created ON ITS FACE to intimidate and oppress.

If that is not an adequate standard for removal, then I do not know what is.

The onus should not be on the people who frequent the Gay and Lesbian Forum to problem solve to work it down so we don't have to see it anymore.

Trust me: we see it every day - and so do our children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really can't get into this anymore.

The reality is that this post was created simply as AN ACT OF HATE. It was clearly not created as an attempt to gather information or create discussion. It wasn't someone saying on a thread about adoption by LGBT people that they didn't feel comfortable with it, etc. - it was created ON ITS FACE to intimidate and oppress.

If that is not an adequate standard for removal, then I do not know what is.

The onus should not be on the people who frequent the Gay and Lesbian Forum to problem solve to work it down so we don't have to see it anymore.

Trust me: we see it every day - and so do our children.

Forgot to add: so, I would really appreciate it if you would reconsider your position about removing it. Again, it was not a response to express a particular opinion about a given thread topic - it was a post created simply to be hurtful. And it has succeeded.

[Anonymous]

I'm not a gay parent, and I don't like censorship, but I have to agree.

What has this poster really said -- other than "I want to offend you"??

[jsteele]

Yes, I know the topic is offensive. I'm sure there would be widespread support for removing it. But, there are about 15 threads on the board right now about which the same can be said. The Beauvoir people would like to see that thread go away. There are anti-immigrant threads and the famous threads about Jews. If I remove a thread that is anti-gay, but leave the others, what does that say about me? I firmly believe that you do not confront speech with which you disagree by removing it. You confront it with more speech.

[Anonymous]

There are distinctions here that make this post different the other examples you discuss.

This is not about a comment or comments WITHIN a thread. This is about a thread itself which was titled in such a way that the SOLE PURPOSE of the thread was to harass and create a hostile environment for a class of people WITHIN THEIR OWN SPACE. Similar to people who drive into LGBT neighborhoods to find a gay person to beat up - exact same kind of hateful action.

And, unlike a comment within a thread, it is the title of this thread which is abusive which makes it is impossible not to read the post when it is view. It is hard to imagine a thread with a similarly hateful title referencing another minority group and a complete lack of purpose other than abuse being tolerated on DCUM.

This is not someone simply expressing an opinion offensive to some - it is someone being purposefully violent with words.

[Anonymous]

21:38 here, still agreeing you. There is a difference between free speech and hate speech. I think we can tell the difference without worrying too much about that oh-so-slippery slope.

But you're wrong when you say that no one ever intentionally started another thread just to offend a minority group. If you care to do the research, you will find a thread entitled, "Simple Jew Question" which is equally offensive. There may have been others.

I think another dintinction that can be made here is that the purpose of the LGBT Forum is "discuss issues related to same sex parents and the parents of LGBT children." Initiating a thread stating that such parents should not have a right to have children is not, technically, an issue related to same sex parents and the parents of LGBT children. Rather, the statement is a categorical rejection of this group and their right to parent.

[Anonymous]

Not to put it on the same level, but you will ROUTINELY see posts in the independent school board talking about how people should be sending their kids to public schools, not to these snobby schools filled with elitists. One could argue that this is a misplaced post...after all, the independent schools board has been set up to talk about issues related to independent schools, not to bash people who use them.

Although the emotion behind the post may be different, the nature of the argument is similar. And I agree with Jeff that the best way to counteract hatred is to confront it, not to bury it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not to put it on the same level, but you will ROUTINELY see posts in the independent school board talking about how people should be sending their kids to public schools, not to these snobby schools filled with elitists. One could argue that this is a misplaced post...after all, the independent schools board has been set up to talk about issues related to independent schools, not to bash people who use them.

Although the emotion behind the post may be different, the nature of the argument is similar. And I agree with Jeff that the best way to counteract hatred is to confront it, not to bury it.

Oh for God's sake, that's a totally different scenario.

THE THREAD IN QUESTION WAS CREATED AS HATE SPEECH. Period.

LGBT parents confront this kind of hatred EVERY SINGLE DAY and don't need platitudes from others about how we should also have to deal with it here because you all think it's best.

[Anonymous]

I guess this forum perpetuates our societies general tolerance of hate and complacency with existing stereotypes and prejudices that keep certain groups in the highest tier of privilege.

I do respect the notion of having a free-speech, anonymous forum on which to post thoughts without being censored, but wonder where social responsibility comes in. When does not doing anything about something become participating in a hateful act.

It is sort of like teaching your child it is okay to stand by when someone is getting bullied at school and not say anything. Is it really okay? Do bystanders become perpetrators at that point?

I understand Jeff's position, especially given the nature of this particular forum. Maybe Jeff would consider adding a forum specifically for bigotry? This way people could feel free to write how they felt--no matter how disgusting and offensive, and at least it would be classified as that. And then Jeff would have a place to put such comments.

[Anonymous]

This is actually a clever solution. A separate forum for hateful threads. That way, hateful threads can be moved there and away from forums where they are directly hurtful and harmful. Sort of like telling the cross burners that they can burn their crosses over in that field, but not on anyone's front lawn, and telling the swastika spray painters that they can spray them on those old abandoned buildings over there, but not on synagogues.