Parents getting upset about any group invitation

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

And trying to control the way other people manage their lives isn't controlling? I think the gist of this thread is that people wish they could control more than they have the power to control or influence. And they just keep trying, but it's fruitless.

Kind of like OP who is mad this other parent had the audacity to confront her. It doesn't matter if the other person is out of line or not one of OPs friends. She can't control everyone around her. She needs to just deal and move on.

Ongoing confrontations to 10 plus families and ignoring parents every few weeks is not the same as posting on an anonymous message board. You realize that right?

So call the cops for harassment? The bizarre PSAs acting like this is normal behavior we're all taking part in, aren't going to change anything. OP must have left something out here to have riled this parent up so much. What's not being said?

Why do you care? OP should move on. It sounds from the comments that OP has.

What comment suggests OP has moved on? This woman is in her head. You would think with her close knit friends like family she would have someone else to talk to about this if she's so upset about the constant confrontations.

The only reason I have any empathy and continue to deal with it is so her kid can remain friends with my child. I had a mom the same way and it sucked and was embarrassing and does impact the children. But the behavior is entitled and rude.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously you are not going to coordinate 110 families - only coordinate with the boys then. You can ask once, then make a group chat with any takers. That will winnow it down naturally to a manageable number and no one can rightfully get bent out of shape later. I know some people don’t like grade chats but I find them helpful for this kind of stuff, sharing intel on camps, doctors, blah blah. The bottom line IMO is that you can choose either to be more welcoming or deal with the blowback of being the leader of a clique. But I’m not feeling too sorry for your plight if all you want to do about is come here and complain.

With great power comes great responsibility OP.

Great power? I am talking about dropping into a gym class that’s advertised to everyone. I find the reaction entitled. She could also initiate too. If you’re going to complain about not getting invited to something, make an effort yourself to show up or say thank you for the invite to prior attempts.

Yes but there is a reason you did not send your casual text to HER when you made the effort to text 4-5 others…and she is picking up on the exclusionary piece of that.
Yes she could have initiated, but she didn’t. YOU did initiate—but your outreach to specifically coordinate and co firm attendance at the drop-in thing did not include her and was obvious that a coordinated attendance was agreeed upon and orchestrated without her.

No—she is not “entitled” to be included but it is hurtful to NOT be included if she is supposed to be considered a friend. And the issue is probably that you don’t really consider her to be a friend….but you also aren’t particularly seeking to anger her. You just don’t enjoy her and that’s fine. But you can’t both exclude her AND make her feel okay about that, OP.
That’s gaslighting.
You don’t really like her but you include her because she’s around and you don’t want to look like a mean girl mom.
But even your tactics of inclusion are “mean girl” if I’m being honest.
As another poster pointed out—she doesn’t want to be an “add on” afterthought but that’s exactly how you treat her when you say “a group of us are getting ice cream—you should come” or “some of us are going to the park, would you like to join?”
On the surface that may feel inclusive to you and you may even think you are being so gracious to extend your circle to invite her….but OP, that only conveys that initial plans have been made and agreed upon within a smaller group that she is NOT included in and then after the plan was set, you loop her in (whether or not the time or activity works for her schedule is not a consideration—as she is clearly not part of the “A” list group.)—-but aren’t you a sweetheart for inviting her? Why isn’t she showing any interest??
I just want you to acknowledge that to you, the issue is her ingratitude and entitlement.
But to her—the issue is that this group of moms is pretending to like her and include her, but in reality they don’t do either and she is hurt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Same poster as above: also obviously this lady is not being super mature. I would just let the “silent treatment” roll off your back. Sounds like you’ve got plenty of friends of the 110 families in your grade and maybe it’s just not a match with this one lady.

SUPER!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

And trying to control the way other people manage their lives isn't controlling? I think the gist of this thread is that people wish they could control more than they have the power to control or influence. And they just keep trying, but it's fruitless.

Kind of like OP who is mad this other parent had the audacity to confront her. It doesn't matter if the other person is out of line or not one of OPs friends. She can't control everyone around her. She needs to just deal and move on.

Ongoing confrontations to 10 plus families and ignoring parents every few weeks is not the same as posting on an anonymous message board. You realize that right?

So call the cops for harassment? The bizarre PSAs acting like this is normal behavior we're all taking part in, aren't going to change anything. OP must have left something out here to have riled this parent up so much. What's not being said?

Why do you care? OP should move on. It sounds from the comments that OP has.

What comment suggests OP has moved on? This woman is in her head. You would think with her close knit friends like family she would have someone else to talk to about this if she's so upset about the constant confrontations.

The only reason I have any empathy and continue to deal with it is so her kid can remain friends with my child. I had a mom the same way and it sucked and was embarrassing and does impact the children. But the behavior is entitled and rude.

So the kids are actually friends. But it seems the adults are socially engineering a group of friends based primarily on the adult friendships. This is what many people object to.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.

Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.

So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.

Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.

This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.

You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.

You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.

So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.

NP. Isn’t it normal for block parties to only include those on the block, since they’re the ones putting up funds for it?

Nobody wants to crash the block party, what they want is for kids to be able to trick or treat together, even ones who live in the same neighborhood. But now it's a "block party" and those kids can't have their other friends come along because according to mom "they have plans" now. Since you're not aware of how these things work, often they leave the block party in their golf cart and there "isn't enough room" for other friends. It's all very exclusive and highly curated, kids don't roam in packs together without parents in tow driving them or following behind with their wine tumblers.

+1…this is exactly how Halloween goes in my neighborhood. To the parents included, it’s wonderful and Halloween is “so great!” To the parents of kids not able to trick or treat with their friends because of this exclusionary nonsense, it’s ruined a holiday. Especially, when kids come home and say that their friends want them to come too.

I'm in Chicago and it's exactly the same here. Halloween has become depressing because it's just a parade of families partying together. My kids want to join but "we already made plans together! Maybe next time!" . Where I live it's actually the bro dad's who instigate this.

Same here. My daughter can't trick or treat with her 3 friends because there are 6 in the golf cart, 3 dads and their 3 daughters. No room! What in the world. So now it's daddy/daughter trick or treating? My dad would have never and nobody wanted their parents around. This is all so weird compared to how it was a few decades ago.

How does a golf cart related to trick or tricking ok Halloween? The golf cart on golf course?

They drive it on the street, of course. There is no actual need for the golf carts. The homes aren't that far apart and the street isn't dangerous. But it's a way to make sure the parents make it about themselves and less about the kids getting together with their friends. The kids get driven from house to house and run out, then run back in.

Thanks for the answer. We live in a tight blocks of townhouses and single family homes. Every kids walk,and I have never seen or heard of using golf carts for trick or treating . Lol I only may have seen them as a parade car decorated for the festival on the street.

Yeah, I live in Brooklyn and have never seen a golf cart in the borough outside of official vehicles in the botanic garden.

Now you know how the other half lives. I have lived all over and have seen the golf cart Halloweens in Illinois, Texas, Arizona, California, Florida. Anywhere people live near golf courses.

Wild! And it's legal to drive it in the street?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would actually assume this issue is more complex than OP is letting on. Just based on my observations of similar situations at our own school. It doesn't mean it's nefarious or that OP is at fault, I would just guess that there are other factors at play that make the other mom's behavior make a little more sense.

OP saying that she and these other moms have been friends since their kids were babies and that they have their own friendship independent of the kids and the school is probably a major source of the issue. I get why this happens but it pretty much always causes problems. If it's just one or two families who know each other it's not a big thing, but when you get a to a group of moms that's like 5-10, or more, who have this pre-existing friendship, it becomes awkward. Those women will always talk to each other, and will also feel little value in making an effort with other families in the grade because they already have their friends. Their kids will often all be friends and will play together, which creates a similar dynamic among the kids. So then the kids of the other parents start coming home and talking about how there is this group of kids who all play together and dont' include others. Ideally the other kids will just start creating their own groups but the problem is that this requires the other kids not to become fixated on this existing group, whose familiarity with each other will bestow a kind of popular aura on them, and then the other kids will want to break into that group instead of creating their own. This is just a weird phenomenon of group dynamics that happens often whether you want it to or not.

So the existing friend group feels exclusionary even though it really shouldn't be a big deal that some people are already friends. It tilts the balance of power and creates all these little negative interactions for the people outside the group (both kids and adults). A kid will get upset they weren't invited to a birthday party because the group is talking about the party at school and everyone else feels left out. A mom will get the brush off at a PTA meeting when she tries to strike up a conversation with a member of the group, because that person just wants to chat with her existing friends. And these little moments build up and it becomes a thing. It's not exactly anyone's fault, it just happens. And the people in the friend group will roll their eyes and say "whatever, make your own friends, not everyone has to be invited." And this is 100% correct but it also ignores the fact that they are immune to the negative dynamics created by the existence of this groups, by virtue of being on the inside instead of the outside. A little empathy can go a long way there, but people don't always have the energy or motivation to practice it. So it all just compounds.

The good news is that this mostly goes away in middle school. Kids create their own friendships and parents are less involved in schools, so the friend group will just stop being an issue for the kids or the other parents. It's just these few years in K-5 where it can be a problem. I've seen it happen twice, once from the inside of the friend group and once from the outside, and it's annoying to people for a while and then doesn't matter anymore.

Disagree. Only people who strive to be on the inside feel negative about interactions. Most people do not care and will make their own groups alliances, and acquaintances. Very few people would feel so strongly about not being invited to a small gathering that they insert themselves and demand being invited next time. I cannot fathom getting this bent out of shape over hearing about someone else’s plans. OP has done nothing wrong at all and isn’t responsible for the other lady’s feelings, or her kid’s.

Disagree with your disagreement. The key phrase was balance of power. Theoretically the balance of power is distributed within the class but in practice these sorts of groups exert, sometimes unknowingly, extra power because they are in a sense organized.

The broader class dynamics start revolving around their interests and needs, due in part to first mover advantages, which then creates structural barriers to entry that leave the unaffiliated unable to break in.

These replies speak to our experience. My kid's friends with a group of kids whose moms are close. The moms are nice enough. And they and their kids do things that some could read as pointedly exclusionary. Like letting their kids call mine from every get together they all do. Or having conversations about ideas I've brought up individually with one of them and then deciding how to move forward together. It's like they're living by committee. And that influences how their kids sometimes interact with mine.

For us, we go when we're invited and we don't sweat it when we're not, especially since my kid says they don't care. Kiddo has a broad range of friends, so they are able to dismiss it. I know that's not true for all kids.

OP isn't responsible for another person's reaction. And the group she's in probably does do things that are strangely committee-like to people like me, exclusionary to more sensitive types.

This, and it could also be that the mom's kid is more sensitive than yours and more upset/bothered by some of the social bragging and competitiveness that the friend group's kids may engage in. She may be more annoyed by the exclusion of her kid simply because it is causing more problems for her at home, if her kid is complaining a lot about not being part of that group, not wanting to go to school, etc.

I think OP is perceiving this as being entirely about this woman wanting to break into their friend group and I think it's highly unlikely that's the case. The behavior really indicates this is creating issues with her kid and she resents the moms for creating this problem. The thing with the moms attending the gym class makes this obvious -- I guarantee this mom is not mad she didn't get to hang out at gym class with these other women. But instead, her kid came home and said "hey all the moms came to gym class today but you weren't there! why didn't you come, I felt left out," and this mom was like wtf I didn't even know this was something people were doing today.

The proper response to the last example is, “Sometimes moms go to the gym together. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes you play tag and sometimes you don’t.”

The kids are six.

The moms didn't "go to the gym together." They did a special visit to their child's gym class together. The child who sees this, notes his mom is not there, and feels embarrassed or hurt is actually correctly perceiving the social situation -- he is recognizing that there are a group of parents who know each other and are friends, and can plan special events for their kids like this which bring more attention to their kids and may improve their kids' social standing at school, and that his mom is not part of that group and cannot help his social standing at school in the same way.

Like I guarantee the day those moms all showed up to gym class that day, all the kids noticed and talked about it and it conferred a special status on the kids whose moms were there. Maybe those kids got to do something special in class with their moms that the other kids didn't get to do, maybe the gym teacher gave the moms special jobs or made a big deal about it. The kid can tell this group of families has a kind of special status at the school by virtue of being a cohesive group, and he can tell that it helps those kids socially and that he doesn't have the same advantages. Telling him "oh this is like when you decide not to play tag" is gaslighting him. He understands the situation better than you do.

This was an open event advertised in a newsletter. No one received an engraved invitation. This mom could easily have reached out to OP or another mother asking if they planned on going. Sometimes you have to make shit happen.

I read OP as saying there is a standing invitation for parents to come to gym class, not that this was a specific event on a certain day.

Also it's bizarre to argue that the mom should be checking in with OP or this group to see if they are planning on doing a coordinated visit. Can you imagine what this would actually look like IRL? A mom who is not a part of this friend group texting to ask what their plans are so she could invite herself to join? They would talk so much $hit about her behind her back if she did that, even more than they currently do.

Right? My second grader is currently insisting that he is invited to trick or treat with a group. These moms are all friends. Am I supposed to text them like "hey ladies, what are we doing for Halloween?"
I had these boys over last weekend and the moms just dropped them off. So I'm doing my part hosting. But it doesn't mean im in on all the plans.

Ugh, situations like that are frustrating. I do actually think you have to reach out and say "hey sounds like the boys were talking about trick or treating together -- can we coordinate?" But I understand why it's awkward when they are all friends because it will 100% feel like trying to invade their plans even though the boys were making plans on their own.

The one consolation is that this problem gets better in a few years when the kids can more competently coordinate their own plans and don't need rides everywhere.

I think part of the problem here is making a kid-focused activity (like visiting a gym class or kids trick-or-treating) into an adult social event. It's easier if you keep this separate. If you want to do something with your mom friends, go out for drinks or coffee. If you want to go to your kids gym class, message the class chat and let everyone know you're going. If you just keep this stuff separate, it's waaaaaay less awkward and doesn't create as much weirdness with the kids.

Adults turn Halloween trick or treating in my neighborhood into an adult focused social event. This is not something I remember as a kid. It’s moms and dads all walking in groups with drinks and doing shots in driveways. It’s all pre-trick or treat parties for selected families and honestly, it’s ruined the whole holiday for me.

Yep, it’s a parent block party now so you have to know the parents to get invited. My DD is new at school and wanted to trick or treat with her new friends but we’re not invited to the party. But God forbid we express any disappointment by the exclusions because nobody owes us anything according to some. The kids guest list would look very different from the adult list if they were given a say.

So ask invite her friends to come trick or treating. How is this so hard? We were invited to nothing one year, so we had our own haunted house. Guess what? I didn’t want to invite the aggressive kid, the one who’s mean to my youngest, and I invited a few adult friends.

Do you really think these parents are going to have their kids miss their block party? Think.

This. The parents have set it up just how they want. They get to spend Halloween with their friends on their block, the kids will trick or treat and play with their friends' kids who are also their friends. Easy. The other families will say "oh sorry we can't make it we already have plans, but have fun!" and move on with their lives. But they also won't invite PP's daughter because she doesn't live on their block and isn't one of the group.

You obviously get it. The people giving out weird advice seem to have no clue about how these social groups actually work. Is it because they have no experience with them but feel compelled to give worthless advice? “Just invite them anyway to your house! It will all work out!” What a joke.

You call it weird advice, but my each of my kids have great groups of friends that they've nurtured over the years.

So you don’t know what the neighborhood cliques are like that have the block parties and tell everyone their kids “has plans” are like. We know. The adults run the show, you obviously don’t get it.

NP. Isn’t it normal for block parties to only include those on the block, since they’re the ones putting up funds for it?

Nobody wants to crash the block party, what they want is for kids to be able to trick or treat together, even ones who live in the same neighborhood. But now it's a "block party" and those kids can't have their other friends come along because according to mom "they have plans" now. Since you're not aware of how these things work, often they leave the block party in their golf cart and there "isn't enough room" for other friends. It's all very exclusive and highly curated, kids don't roam in packs together without parents in tow driving them or following behind with their wine tumblers.

+1…this is exactly how Halloween goes in my neighborhood. To the parents included, it’s wonderful and Halloween is “so great!” To the parents of kids not able to trick or treat with their friends because of this exclusionary nonsense, it’s ruined a holiday. Especially, when kids come home and say that their friends want them to come too.

I'm in Chicago and it's exactly the same here. Halloween has become depressing because it's just a parade of families partying together. My kids want to join but "we already made plans together! Maybe next time!" . Where I live it's actually the bro dad's who instigate this.

Same here. My daughter can't trick or treat with her 3 friends because there are 6 in the golf cart, 3 dads and their 3 daughters. No room! What in the world. So now it's daddy/daughter trick or treating? My dad would have never and nobody wanted their parents around. This is all so weird compared to how it was a few decades ago.

How does a golf cart related to trick or tricking ok Halloween? The golf cart on golf course?

They drive it on the street, of course. There is no actual need for the golf carts. The homes aren't that far apart and the street isn't dangerous. But it's a way to make sure the parents make it about themselves and less about the kids getting together with their friends. The kids get driven from house to house and run out, then run back in.

Thanks for the answer. We live in a tight blocks of townhouses and single family homes. Every kids walk,and I have never seen or heard of using golf carts for trick or treating . Lol I only may have seen them as a parade car decorated for the festival on the street.

Yeah, I live in Brooklyn and have never seen a golf cart in the borough outside of official vehicles in the botanic garden.

Now you know how the other half lives. I have lived all over and have seen the golf cart Halloweens in Illinois, Texas, Arizona, California, Florida. Anywhere people live near golf courses.

Wild! And it's legal to drive it in the street?

Yes, under 35mph, it's legal to drive a golf cart on the road.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously you are not going to coordinate 110 families - only coordinate with the boys then. You can ask once, then make a group chat with any takers. That will winnow it down naturally to a manageable number and no one can rightfully get bent out of shape later. I know some people don’t like grade chats but I find them helpful for this kind of stuff, sharing intel on camps, doctors, blah blah. The bottom line IMO is that you can choose either to be more welcoming or deal with the blowback of being the leader of a clique. But I’m not feeling too sorry for your plight if all you want to do about is come here and complain.

With great power comes great responsibility OP.

Great power? I am talking about dropping into a gym class that’s advertised to everyone. I find the reaction entitled. She could also initiate too. If you’re going to complain about not getting invited to something, make an effort yourself to show up or say thank you for the invite to prior attempts.

Yes but there is a reason you did not send your casual text to HER when you made the effort to text 4-5 others…and she is picking up on the exclusionary piece of that.
Yes she could have initiated, but she didn’t. YOU did initiate—but your outreach to specifically coordinate and co firm attendance at the drop-in thing did not include her and was obvious that a coordinated attendance was agreeed upon and orchestrated without her.

No—she is not “entitled” to be included but it is hurtful to NOT be included if she is supposed to be considered a friend. And the issue is probably that you don’t really consider her to be a friend….but you also aren’t particularly seeking to anger her. You just don’t enjoy her and that’s fine. But you can’t both exclude her AND make her feel okay about that, OP.
That’s gaslighting.
You don’t really like her but you include her because she’s around and you don’t want to look like a mean girl mom.
But even your tactics of inclusion are “mean girl” if I’m being honest.
As another poster pointed out—she doesn’t want to be an “add on” afterthought but that’s exactly how you treat her when you say “a group of us are getting ice cream—you should come” or “some of us are going to the park, would you like to join?”
On the surface that may feel inclusive to you and you may even think you are being so gracious to extend your circle to invite her….but OP, that only conveys that initial plans have been made and agreed upon within a smaller group that she is NOT included in and then after the plan was set, you loop her in (whether or not the time or activity works for her schedule is not a consideration—as she is clearly not part of the “A” list group.)—-but aren’t you a sweetheart for inviting her? Why isn’t she showing any interest??
I just want you to acknowledge that to you, the issue is her ingratitude and entitlement.
But to her—the issue is that this group of moms is pretending to like her and include her, but in reality they don’t do either and she is hurt.

Bingo!

One thing to add. The other mom might be friends with and part of the core group. So while OP likely doesn't consider her a friend the others do. Thus when OP plans something she could be perceived as attempting to subdivide the group by making the other mom an add on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

And trying to control the way other people manage their lives isn't controlling? I think the gist of this thread is that people wish they could control more than they have the power to control or influence. And they just keep trying, but it's fruitless.

Kind of like OP who is mad this other parent had the audacity to confront her. It doesn't matter if the other person is out of line or not one of OPs friends. She can't control everyone around her. She needs to just deal and move on.

Ongoing confrontations to 10 plus families and ignoring parents every few weeks is not the same as posting on an anonymous message board. You realize that right?

So call the cops for harassment? The bizarre PSAs acting like this is normal behavior we're all taking part in, aren't going to change anything. OP must have left something out here to have riled this parent up so much. What's not being said?

Why do you care? OP should move on. It sounds from the comments that OP has.

What comment suggests OP has moved on? This woman is in her head. You would think with her close knit friends like family she would have someone else to talk to about this if she's so upset about the constant confrontations.

The only reason I have any empathy and continue to deal with it is so her kid can remain friends with my child. I had a mom the same way and it sucked and was embarrassing and does impact the children. But the behavior is entitled and rude.

So the kids are actually friends. But it seems the adults are socially engineering a group of friends based primarily on the adult friendships. This is what many people object to.

They can object. They can refuse to understand. They still can't stop it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

I sort of agree with this. But actually, it is *because* my spouse and I have our own friends outside our kid's school and activity communities that she has "cousin like relationships" with those kids. She hangs out with them because we are friends with their parents, and over the years the kids have learned to play together and have fun even though they are different ages, go to different schools, live in different neighborhoods or even towns.

I think the key is avoid making your kids' school or extra-curricular community the center of your family's social universe. We are friendly with families from the school, but most of my friendships go much further back and are based on deeper things than just having kids the same age in the same class. No one at my kid's school knows me that well, and while I see them socially at school events and birthday parties and can chat with them and enjoy their company, we aren't vacationing together and I'm not getting together with all the moms for girls night or anything. I wouldn't want to do that because I don't want my social relationships with the parents to impact my kid's relationships. Sometimes she's friends with kids whose parents aren't really my jam, and it's fine because I can coordinate with those parents for playdates and things but I don't need to be best friends with them. There are other kids she has no interest in even though I think their parents are very cool, and there's zero pressure on her to become friends with those kids just to facilitate me getting to know their parents better. And that's how it should be.

I view parents at the school the way I view colleagues -- I want to have good working relationships with them. I am respectful and open minded about them because it's a large community that exists for reasons well beyond my personal social needs. But I also keep people at a bit of arms length because I don't want it to impact our work (parenting). Also, just like in any job, the likelihood that we will all be working together like this longterm is slim -- people change jobs and schools, kids move on to there activities, this is not a static situation. If you keep the relationships professional, there are no hurt feelings and it doesn't upend people's lives if one family goes private or the kids head to different middle schools or someone moves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

I sort of agree with this. But actually, it is *because* my spouse and I have our own friends outside our kid's school and activity communities that she has "cousin like relationships" with those kids. She hangs out with them because we are friends with their parents, and over the years the kids have learned to play together and have fun even though they are different ages, go to different schools, live in different neighborhoods or even towns.

I think the key is avoid making your kids' school or extra-curricular community the center of your family's social universe. We are friendly with families from the school, but most of my friendships go much further back and are based on deeper things than just having kids the same age in the same class. No one at my kid's school knows me that well, and while I see them socially at school events and birthday parties and can chat with them and enjoy their company, we aren't vacationing together and I'm not getting together with all the moms for girls night or anything. I wouldn't want to do that because I don't want my social relationships with the parents to impact my kid's relationships. Sometimes she's friends with kids whose parents aren't really my jam, and it's fine because I can coordinate with those parents for playdates and things but I don't need to be best friends with them. There are other kids she has no interest in even though I think their parents are very cool, and there's zero pressure on her to become friends with those kids just to facilitate me getting to know their parents better. And that's how it should be.

I view parents at the school the way I view colleagues -- I want to have good working relationships with them. I am respectful and open minded about them because it's a large community that exists for reasons well beyond my personal social needs. But I also keep people at a bit of arms length because I don't want it to impact our work (parenting). Also, just like in any job, the likelihood that we will all be working together like this longterm is slim -- people change jobs and schools, kids move on to there activities, this is not a static situation. If you keep the relationships professional, there are no hurt feelings and it doesn't upend people's lives if one family goes private or the kids head to different middle schools or someone moves.

Even the Obama kids and the Biden grandchildren formed a bond from the family experiences. You can't stop bonds from happening. You also can't force bonds.

But trying to police when people with bonds get together isn't going to work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

And trying to control the way other people manage their lives isn't controlling? I think the gist of this thread is that people wish they could control more than they have the power to control or influence. And they just keep trying, but it's fruitless.

Kind of like OP who is mad this other parent had the audacity to confront her. It doesn't matter if the other person is out of line or not one of OPs friends. She can't control everyone around her. She needs to just deal and move on.

Ongoing confrontations to 10 plus families and ignoring parents every few weeks is not the same as posting on an anonymous message board. You realize that right?

So call the cops for harassment? The bizarre PSAs acting like this is normal behavior we're all taking part in, aren't going to change anything. OP must have left something out here to have riled this parent up so much. What's not being said?

Why do you care? OP should move on. It sounds from the comments that OP has.

What comment suggests OP has moved on? This woman is in her head. You would think with her close knit friends like family she would have someone else to talk to about this if she's so upset about the constant confrontations.

The only reason I have any empathy and continue to deal with it is so her kid can remain friends with my child. I had a mom the same way and it sucked and was embarrassing and does impact the children. But the behavior is entitled and rude.

So the kids are actually friends. But it seems the adults are socially engineering a group of friends based primarily on the adult friendships. This is what many people object to.

They can object. They can refuse to understand. They still can't stop it.

Who said they could? But OP is finding that she is not free of judgment for her actions. And boy, does she really resent that. But again, she can't stop it, as you say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously you are not going to coordinate 110 families - only coordinate with the boys then. You can ask once, then make a group chat with any takers. That will winnow it down naturally to a manageable number and no one can rightfully get bent out of shape later. I know some people don’t like grade chats but I find them helpful for this kind of stuff, sharing intel on camps, doctors, blah blah. The bottom line IMO is that you can choose either to be more welcoming or deal with the blowback of being the leader of a clique. But I’m not feeling too sorry for your plight if all you want to do about is come here and complain.

With great power comes great responsibility OP.

Great power? I am talking about dropping into a gym class that’s advertised to everyone. I find the reaction entitled. She could also initiate too. If you’re going to complain about not getting invited to something, make an effort yourself to show up or say thank you for the invite to prior attempts.

Yes but there is a reason you did not send your casual text to HER when you made the effort to text 4-5 others…and she is picking up on the exclusionary piece of that.
Yes she could have initiated, but she didn’t. YOU did initiate—but your outreach to specifically coordinate and co firm attendance at the drop-in thing did not include her and was obvious that a coordinated attendance was agreeed upon and orchestrated without her.

No—she is not “entitled” to be included but it is hurtful to NOT be included if she is supposed to be considered a friend. And the issue is probably that you don’t really consider her to be a friend….but you also aren’t particularly seeking to anger her. You just don’t enjoy her and that’s fine. But you can’t both exclude her AND make her feel okay about that, OP.
That’s gaslighting.
You don’t really like her but you include her because she’s around and you don’t want to look like a mean girl mom.
But even your tactics of inclusion are “mean girl” if I’m being honest.
As another poster pointed out—she doesn’t want to be an “add on” afterthought but that’s exactly how you treat her when you say “a group of us are getting ice cream—you should come” or “some of us are going to the park, would you like to join?”
On the surface that may feel inclusive to you and you may even think you are being so gracious to extend your circle to invite her….but OP, that only conveys that initial plans have been made and agreed upon within a smaller group that she is NOT included in and then after the plan was set, you loop her in (whether or not the time or activity works for her schedule is not a consideration—as she is clearly not part of the “A” list group.)—-but aren’t you a sweetheart for inviting her? Why isn’t she showing any interest??
I just want you to acknowledge that to you, the issue is her ingratitude and entitlement.
But to her—the issue is that this group of moms is pretending to like her and include her, but in reality they don’t do either and she is hurt.

DP but wow -- you really nailed the dynamics here in a really specific and insightful way! In particular I like how you broke down the way that telling someone who is clearly on the outside of a friend group "hey a group of us are doing X, you should join" tends to emphasize that person's outside status. I had never really thought about that before but have been on both sides of an invite like that and yes, that's exactly why that kind of invite feels so different than an actual extension of friendship.

And yes, you are right, part of what is happening here is that OP is resentful of feeling like she *has* to include this woman, at least sometimes, because their kids are friends and at the same school. OP doesn't want to include her and would really prefer to just do things with her actual friends. So it's 100% an obligation based on the kids' connection and not a genuine effort to get to know this woman or develop a friendship with her, and of course this woman picks up on that and is put off by it, thus the standoff and noncommittal behavior.

I also relate to the idea of recognizing you are essentially getting pity invites or obligatory invites and it making you feel more hostile than you would if you were just totally excluded, because it's an impossible situation. If you say yes and go, you have to be there knowing they would prefer you not come. But if you decline, then it's your own fault that you aren't included. It's a no win situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

I sort of agree with this. But actually, it is *because* my spouse and I have our own friends outside our kid's school and activity communities that she has "cousin like relationships" with those kids. She hangs out with them because we are friends with their parents, and over the years the kids have learned to play together and have fun even though they are different ages, go to different schools, live in different neighborhoods or even towns.

I think the key is avoid making your kids' school or extra-curricular community the center of your family's social universe. We are friendly with families from the school, but most of my friendships go much further back and are based on deeper things than just having kids the same age in the same class. No one at my kid's school knows me that well, and while I see them socially at school events and birthday parties and can chat with them and enjoy their company, we aren't vacationing together and I'm not getting together with all the moms for girls night or anything. I wouldn't want to do that because I don't want my social relationships with the parents to impact my kid's relationships. Sometimes she's friends with kids whose parents aren't really my jam, and it's fine because I can coordinate with those parents for playdates and things but I don't need to be best friends with them. There are other kids she has no interest in even though I think their parents are very cool, and there's zero pressure on her to become friends with those kids just to facilitate me getting to know their parents better. And that's how it should be.

I view parents at the school the way I view colleagues -- I want to have good working relationships with them. I am respectful and open minded about them because it's a large community that exists for reasons well beyond my personal social needs. But I also keep people at a bit of arms length because I don't want it to impact our work (parenting). Also, just like in any job, the likelihood that we will all be working together like this longterm is slim -- people change jobs and schools, kids move on to there activities, this is not a static situation. If you keep the relationships professional, there are no hurt feelings and it doesn't upend people's lives if one family goes private or the kids head to different middle schools or someone moves.

Even the Obama kids and the Biden grandchildren formed a bond from the family experiences. You can't stop bonds from happening. You also can't force bonds.

But trying to police when people with bonds get together isn't going to work.

It doesn't matter if your kid is friends with Sasha and Malia. If the Bidens and Obamas decide they're tired from running the country, and they're just going to do a White House Halloween party, they get to set the invite list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

I sort of agree with this. But actually, it is *because* my spouse and I have our own friends outside our kid's school and activity communities that she has "cousin like relationships" with those kids. She hangs out with them because we are friends with their parents, and over the years the kids have learned to play together and have fun even though they are different ages, go to different schools, live in different neighborhoods or even towns.

I think the key is avoid making your kids' school or extra-curricular community the center of your family's social universe. We are friendly with families from the school, but most of my friendships go much further back and are based on deeper things than just having kids the same age in the same class. No one at my kid's school knows me that well, and while I see them socially at school events and birthday parties and can chat with them and enjoy their company, we aren't vacationing together and I'm not getting together with all the moms for girls night or anything. I wouldn't want to do that because I don't want my social relationships with the parents to impact my kid's relationships. Sometimes she's friends with kids whose parents aren't really my jam, and it's fine because I can coordinate with those parents for playdates and things but I don't need to be best friends with them. There are other kids she has no interest in even though I think their parents are very cool, and there's zero pressure on her to become friends with those kids just to facilitate me getting to know their parents better. And that's how it should be.

I view parents at the school the way I view colleagues -- I want to have good working relationships with them. I am respectful and open minded about them because it's a large community that exists for reasons well beyond my personal social needs. But I also keep people at a bit of arms length because I don't want it to impact our work (parenting). Also, just like in any job, the likelihood that we will all be working together like this longterm is slim -- people change jobs and schools, kids move on to there activities, this is not a static situation. If you keep the relationships professional, there are no hurt feelings and it doesn't upend people's lives if one family goes private or the kids head to different middle schools or someone moves.

Even the Obama kids and the Biden grandchildren formed a bond from the family experiences. You can't stop bonds from happening. You also can't force bonds.

But trying to police when people with bonds get together isn't going to work.

It doesn't matter if your kid is friends with Sasha and Malia. If the Bidens and Obamas decide they're tired from running the country, and they're just going to do a White House Halloween party, they get to set the invite list.

OP knows she sucks for doing this, which is why she feels so guilty about the confrontations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the gist of this thread can be summed up as this:
Parents, have your own friends. And let your kids have their own friends. Those kid friends might be completely unrelated to your friends and that's fine.
This culture that has developed of "friends who are like family" is controlling and exclusive. There are countless threads of people upset they don't have this. I think it's because most kids don't have local family anymore and parents want to develop these cousin like relationships. Your kids should of course be polite to your friends kids but they don't need to be best friends and certainly not their only friends.

I sort of agree with this. But actually, it is *because* my spouse and I have our own friends outside our kid's school and activity communities that she has "cousin like relationships" with those kids. She hangs out with them because we are friends with their parents, and over the years the kids have learned to play together and have fun even though they are different ages, go to different schools, live in different neighborhoods or even towns.

I think the key is avoid making your kids' school or extra-curricular community the center of your family's social universe. We are friendly with families from the school, but most of my friendships go much further back and are based on deeper things than just having kids the same age in the same class. No one at my kid's school knows me that well, and while I see them socially at school events and birthday parties and can chat with them and enjoy their company, we aren't vacationing together and I'm not getting together with all the moms for girls night or anything. I wouldn't want to do that because I don't want my social relationships with the parents to impact my kid's relationships. Sometimes she's friends with kids whose parents aren't really my jam, and it's fine because I can coordinate with those parents for playdates and things but I don't need to be best friends with them. There are other kids she has no interest in even though I think their parents are very cool, and there's zero pressure on her to become friends with those kids just to facilitate me getting to know their parents better. And that's how it should be.

I view parents at the school the way I view colleagues -- I want to have good working relationships with them. I am respectful and open minded about them because it's a large community that exists for reasons well beyond my personal social needs. But I also keep people at a bit of arms length because I don't want it to impact our work (parenting). Also, just like in any job, the likelihood that we will all be working together like this longterm is slim -- people change jobs and schools, kids move on to there activities, this is not a static situation. If you keep the relationships professional, there are no hurt feelings and it doesn't upend people's lives if one family goes private or the kids head to different middle schools or someone moves.

Even the Obama kids and the Biden grandchildren formed a bond from the family experiences. You can't stop bonds from happening. You also can't force bonds.

But trying to police when people with bonds get together isn't going to work.

That is a bizarre example because being the child or grandchild of a President or Vice President is a singular experience with which very few people can relate so of course it would forge some bonds. That's not the same as attending preschool with 5 other kids and your moms all becoming a bestie clique that follows you to elementary, where you actually develop other friends and interests yet your moms insist on you continuing to do all your socializing with those same 5 kids because those are the moms they are friends with. Very different situations!

The point is that that building your family social life around the families your kid goes to school with is dicy because your social interests and your kids' social interests will not always perfectly align. If you keep your social life more independent, your kids can choose friends and activities more freely. And avoiding becoming too intertwined with school families is useful because school is a necessarily temporary situation and as your kids get older and your situation changes, it won't be as impactful on your social life if your friends are mostly from outside that community.