Flash Flood in Texas,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.

And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.

No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.

You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

You think ranting on an anonymous message board is "stepping up"?

No, I think taking action to strengthen our data collection our science research, our weather forecasting abilities, our warning systems is stepping up. Prioritizing making investments in knowledge that will help keep our families safe from a catastrophic weather events is stepping up.

What is the difference between a flood watch and a flood warning?. Who is in charge of tracking all of this information and using it to keep everybody safe?.

There are many people out there who avoid getting drowned in a flood or getting hit by lightning or getting into a car accident because of black ice and any number of other dangerous weather phenomenon.

How are they doing it?. Let's invest in making sure everyone can do it.

What does any of that have to do with the horrible comments people have made in this thread?

DP. What are the horrible comments?

There have been multiple comments where posters say they don't feel bad for the dead girls because their parents are probably Trump supporters. There was also a comment early on referring sarcastically to the girls as "your precious little blond Christian girls" and at least one poster defending it.

Yes, your precious little blond Christian girls are ALSO GOING TO SUFFER FROM CLIMATE CHANGE so if pointing this out is what makes Republicans stop sticking their fingers in their ears and denying science and relying on totally useless prayer instead, I am going to point it out every single time and if you don’t like it I don’t care. These kids didn’t deserve to die, and if we had evidence-based regulations and evidence-based policies in place BY GOVERNMENT, which is “politics,” they might not have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

You think ranting on an anonymous message board is "stepping up"?

No, I think taking action to strengthen our data collection our science research, our weather forecasting abilities, our warning systems is stepping up. Prioritizing making investments in knowledge that will help keep our families safe from a catastrophic weather events is stepping up.

What is the difference between a flood watch and a flood warning?. Who is in charge of tracking all of this information and using it to keep everybody safe?.

There are many people out there who avoid getting drowned in a flood or getting hit by lightning or getting into a car accident because of black ice and any number of other dangerous weather phenomenon.

How are they doing it?. Let's invest in making sure everyone can do it.

What does any of that have to do with the horrible comments people have made in this thread?

You're not going to survive well in an anonymous chat form if you don't learn how to identify and ignore trolls.

You are not helpless in the face of this disaster. You can take a look at it and try to understand why it happened. Precisely out of respect for the people that lost their lives

You may disagree that it is worth investing in, and having respect for a robust national weather service and all the infrastructure that it takes to have that. But there is nothing disrespectful in posters expressing that view.

I don't disagree with funding the NWS and having whatever infrastructure is necessary. That has nothing to do with showing basic human decency when referring to these children, who presumably died horrible deaths. Those two things are compatible. You don't have to be an a-hole to support the NWS.

Why does any functioning adult need the NWS to tell them that a creek prone to flash flooding will flash flood after 10” of sudden rain?

I mean, at some point, people have to use their own brains and not be reliant on some authority to spoon feed them every single action they should take.

The counselors and management of this camp are to blame. Period. Because they knew the history of flooding at the camp. They knew it had been raining for hours. But they didn’t even monitor the creek. They couldn’t be bothered to.


But some of you here are vitally dependent on making this the fault of DOGE and Trump. So you excuse people who allowed children to be killed because they were too lazy/stupid to think that flooding might occur after record amounts of rain.

You’re blaming the 19 year old counselors for this?

There are 19 year olds in our military who are crewing deadly war machines of all types. In light of their service, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a much smaller degree of responsibility out of camp counselors. Specifically, to have the forethought to think flooding might be a possibility. That is NOT unreasonable.

Actually they're the only adults who were in the cabins, and therefore didn't have reliable phone service, but who reacted well when they realized the waters were rising: most of them led the campers to safety. They are the only grown-ups I do NOT blame in this situation. And to be fair, the counselors are barely more than children. I have a 20 year old son in charge of middle school campers right now. I think he would make all the right decisions, but he's still pretty young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

You think ranting on an anonymous message board is "stepping up"?

No, I think taking action to strengthen our data collection our science research, our weather forecasting abilities, our warning systems is stepping up. Prioritizing making investments in knowledge that will help keep our families safe from a catastrophic weather events is stepping up.

What is the difference between a flood watch and a flood warning?. Who is in charge of tracking all of this information and using it to keep everybody safe?.

There are many people out there who avoid getting drowned in a flood or getting hit by lightning or getting into a car accident because of black ice and any number of other dangerous weather phenomenon.

How are they doing it?. Let's invest in making sure everyone can do it.

What does any of that have to do with the horrible comments people have made in this thread?

DP. What are the horrible comments?

There have been multiple comments where posters say they don't feel bad for the dead girls because their parents are probably Trump supporters. There was also a comment early on referring sarcastically to the girls as "your precious little blond Christian girls" and at least one poster defending it.

Yes, your precious little blond Christian girls are ALSO GOING TO SUFFER FROM CLIMATE CHANGE so if pointing this out is what makes Republicans stop sticking their fingers in their ears and denying science and relying on totally useless prayer instead, I am going to point it out every single time and if you don’t like it I don’t care. These kids didn’t deserve to die, and if we had evidence-based regulations and evidence-based policies in place BY GOVERNMENT, which is “politics,” they might not have.

You fell for trolls. Calm down and get back to the real world, where we're all grieving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That video is so scary. The poor girls and their families. I can’t believe how little they look in their photos. I wouldn’t send a daughter that little to sleepaway. Not because I could predict flash flooding, but they just seem too little to go away. I know “it’s normal” in some families to send kids away that small, but that’s too little.

It’s a cultural thing. We are Texan and our kids all went at 7. Our kids go to camp out of state but many of our friends children attend Mystic, La Junta and the other camps lining the river.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

You think ranting on an anonymous message board is "stepping up"?

No, I think taking action to strengthen our data collection our science research, our weather forecasting abilities, our warning systems is stepping up. Prioritizing making investments in knowledge that will help keep our families safe from a catastrophic weather events is stepping up.

What is the difference between a flood watch and a flood warning?. Who is in charge of tracking all of this information and using it to keep everybody safe?.

There are many people out there who avoid getting drowned in a flood or getting hit by lightning or getting into a car accident because of black ice and any number of other dangerous weather phenomenon.

How are they doing it?. Let's invest in making sure everyone can do it.

What does any of that have to do with the horrible comments people have made in this thread?

DP. What are the horrible comments?

There have been multiple comments where posters say they don't feel bad for the dead girls because their parents are probably Trump supporters. There was also a comment early on referring sarcastically to the girls as "your precious little blond Christian girls" and at least one poster defending it.

Yes, your precious little blond Christian girls are ALSO GOING TO SUFFER FROM CLIMATE CHANGE so if pointing this out is what makes Republicans stop sticking their fingers in their ears and denying science and relying on totally useless prayer instead, I am going to point it out every single time and if you don’t like it I don’t care. These kids didn’t deserve to die, and if we had evidence-based regulations and evidence-based policies in place BY GOVERNMENT, which is “politics,” they might not have.

You fell for trolls. Calm down and get back to the real world, where we're all grieving.

You seriously think people who genuinely feel bad about these dead girls are posting on here about how they don’t feel bad because they’re trump supporters?

[Anonymous]

All politics and recriminations aside, this is the world we have made for our children and the ones who survived this climate created catastrophe will go on to live through others in this burning world we are leaving them. This kind of death and destruction will become more and more commonplace in the decades to come and there is no longer hope of avoiding the inevitable, we missed the window of opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That video is so scary. The poor girls and their families. I can’t believe how little they look in their photos. I wouldn’t send a daughter that little to sleepaway. Not because I could predict flash flooding, but they just seem too little to go away. I know “it’s normal” in some families to send kids away that small, but that’s too little.

It’s a cultural thing. We are Texan and our kids all went at 7. Our kids go to camp out of state but many of our friends children attend Mystic, La Junta and the other camps lining the river.

It may be cultural but I could never have sent a 7 year old. A ten year old maybe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

I work as a researcher in geographical sciences, focusing on remote sensing. My projects include climate change. I also volunteer and donate to environmental organizations. Care to tell me how you are more “stepped up” than I am now?

I'm not smacking you around for having an opinion about what could be done to prevent disasters like this in the future.

And I’m not “smacking anyone around” for doing that; I am talking about the ghouls who are literally saying they don’t care because it’s Texas, they voted for it, blah blah blah. This thread has at least three gross posts on every page, and if you’re going to deny that, there’s no point in talking with you, because you don’t face reality. If my chastising post doesn’t apply to you, then ease on down the road.

That’s the reality. This happened in Texas, a notorious red state. This happened to children at a Christian camp. Children whose parents almost certainly all voted for Trump. Those are three strikes against them for a lot of people here.


It’s not exactly hard to fathom why people here say they don’t care. They’re just being honest. They shouldn’t be excoriated for being honest.

Do you actually say that people are "just being honest," regardless of their comments? Regardless of which group they're criticizing or don't like or choose to avoid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.

And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.

No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.

You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!

I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.

I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)

I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.

And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All politics and recriminations aside, this is the world we have made for our children and the ones who survived this climate created catastrophe will go on to live through others in this burning world we are leaving them. This kind of death and destruction will become more and more commonplace in the decades to come and there is no longer hope of avoiding the inevitable, we missed the window of opportunity.

Not relevant. This has been a flood plain for over 100 years. A camp should not have been so close to the water.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.

And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.

No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.

You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!

I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.

I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)

I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.

And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.

Camp should have their own sirens and communication. What about other emergencies? This camp had 750 kids plus adults. They knew they were on a flood plain. The counselors who got the kids out are hero’s but the camp owners are at fault.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That video is so scary. The poor girls and their families. I can’t believe how little they look in their photos. I wouldn’t send a daughter that little to sleepaway. Not because I could predict flash flooding, but they just seem too little to go away. I know “it’s normal” in some families to send kids away that small, but that’s too little.

It’s a cultural thing. We are Texan and our kids all went at 7. Our kids go to camp out of state but many of our friends children attend Mystic, La Junta and the other camps lining the river.

It may be cultural but I could never have sent a 7 year old. A ten year old maybe.

I went to sleepaway camp and so do my kids. My guess is most of the 7 and 8 year olds are younger siblings/cousins of older campers. Or at least that is the pattern at the camps I know well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

You think ranting on an anonymous message board is "stepping up"?

No, I think taking action to strengthen our data collection our science research, our weather forecasting abilities, our warning systems is stepping up. Prioritizing making investments in knowledge that will help keep our families safe from a catastrophic weather events is stepping up.

What is the difference between a flood watch and a flood warning?. Who is in charge of tracking all of this information and using it to keep everybody safe?.

There are many people out there who avoid getting drowned in a flood or getting hit by lightning or getting into a car accident because of black ice and any number of other dangerous weather phenomenon.

How are they doing it?. Let's invest in making sure everyone can do it.

What does any of that have to do with the horrible comments people have made in this thread?

You're not going to survive well in an anonymous chat form if you don't learn how to identify and ignore trolls.

You are not helpless in the face of this disaster. You can take a look at it and try to understand why it happened. Precisely out of respect for the people that lost their lives

You may disagree that it is worth investing in, and having respect for a robust national weather service and all the infrastructure that it takes to have that. But there is nothing disrespectful in posters expressing that view.

I don't disagree with funding the NWS and having whatever infrastructure is necessary. That has nothing to do with showing basic human decency when referring to these children, who presumably died horrible deaths. Those two things are compatible. You don't have to be an a-hole to support the NWS.

Why does any functioning adult need the NWS to tell them that a creek prone to flash flooding will flash flood after 10” of sudden rain?

I mean, at some point, people have to use their own brains and not be reliant on some authority to spoon feed them every single action they should take.

The counselors and management of this camp are to blame. Period. Because they knew the history of flooding at the camp. They knew it had been raining for hours. But they didn’t even monitor the creek. They couldn’t be bothered to.


But some of you here are vitally dependent on making this the fault of DOGE and Trump. So you excuse people who allowed children to be killed because they were too lazy/stupid to think that flooding might occur after record amounts of rain.

You’re blaming the 19 year old counselors for this?

There are 19 year olds in our military who are crewing deadly war machines of all types. In light of their service, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a much smaller degree of responsibility out of camp counselors. Specifically, to have the forethought to think flooding might be a possibility. That is NOT unreasonable.

19 year olds have leadership right there. And they are trained. Not comparable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many of you are so sick. These are missing children. Little girls. Other people have been killed, hurt, are missing or have lost everything. I don’t care who anyone voted for. Most of these kids obviously can’t vote. What is actually wrong with you?

If any of you who are gloating over this tragedy or say you don’t have compassion claim to belong to any religion or spiritual community, know that you don’t. Know that you are evil and full of hate.

Who is gloating?. Why are you just sitting there like a bump on a log sad about what happened. Step up a little.

You think ranting on an anonymous message board is "stepping up"?

No, I think taking action to strengthen our data collection our science research, our weather forecasting abilities, our warning systems is stepping up. Prioritizing making investments in knowledge that will help keep our families safe from a catastrophic weather events is stepping up.

What is the difference between a flood watch and a flood warning?. Who is in charge of tracking all of this information and using it to keep everybody safe?.

There are many people out there who avoid getting drowned in a flood or getting hit by lightning or getting into a car accident because of black ice and any number of other dangerous weather phenomenon.

How are they doing it?. Let's invest in making sure everyone can do it.

What does any of that have to do with the horrible comments people have made in this thread?

You're not going to survive well in an anonymous chat form if you don't learn how to identify and ignore trolls.

You are not helpless in the face of this disaster. You can take a look at it and try to understand why it happened. Precisely out of respect for the people that lost their lives

You may disagree that it is worth investing in, and having respect for a robust national weather service and all the infrastructure that it takes to have that. But there is nothing disrespectful in posters expressing that view.

I don't disagree with funding the NWS and having whatever infrastructure is necessary. That has nothing to do with showing basic human decency when referring to these children, who presumably died horrible deaths. Those two things are compatible. You don't have to be an a-hole to support the NWS.

Why does any functioning adult need the NWS to tell them that a creek prone to flash flooding will flash flood after 10” of sudden rain?

I mean, at some point, people have to use their own brains and not be reliant on some authority to spoon feed them every single action they should take.

The counselors and management of this camp are to blame. Period. Because they knew the history of flooding at the camp. They knew it had been raining for hours. But they didn’t even monitor the creek. They couldn’t be bothered to.


But some of you here are vitally dependent on making this the fault of DOGE and Trump. So you excuse people who allowed children to be killed because they were too lazy/stupid to think that flooding might occur after record amounts of rain.

You’re blaming the 19 year old counselors for this?

There are 19 year olds in our military who are crewing deadly war machines of all types. In light of their service, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect a much smaller degree of responsibility out of camp counselors. Specifically, to have the forethought to think flooding might be a possibility. That is NOT unreasonable.

Actually they're the only adults who were in the cabins, and therefore didn't have reliable phone service, but who reacted well when they realized the waters were rising: most of them led the campers to safety. They are the only grown-ups I do NOT blame in this situation. And to be fair, the counselors are barely more than children. I have a 20 year old son in charge of middle school campers right now. I think he would make all the right decisions, but he's still pretty young.

The kids who died were the youngest by the water. The counselors may not have had time or knew to get them out.