WaPo on ranking high schools

[Anonymous]

No extra weight at Exeter because they don't do AP or honors in the way they do in many other schools. And they don't give official extra weight to their advanced courses either. There is no grade inflation there, hence 4.0 GPA equivalents are virtually non-existent = average GPA's are much lower than they would have been at their former schools. They don't rank either. That's because most of these kids were #1 at the former schools they attended. But they do provide the quintiles. It's a problem for many as their GPA's at former schools would have been much higher and college admissions offices don't take any of such non-grade inflation and GPA factors properly into account. Also, even though they will NEVER admit it there is a limit to the number of these kids the HYPS+ schools are willing to take, even though they already come from all over the country and world and from every socio-economic and racial background and have essentially been pre-vetted for their diversity and talent components. They will never call it such but they DO have unspoken quotas for elite schools.

But there's no doubt the students get a superior education in spite of many giving up the HYPS+ ticket they would have received back home. It's a trade off and worth it to some.


For most of these brilliant kids it may be better to stay at home and really shine in a decent day school if they want the HYPS+ ticket. Otherwise they must consider the dilemma of exchanging a superior education for a HYPS+ ticket. It's just a fact.

[Anonymous]

PP, there's a lot in your post, and I certainly don't disagree with your claim that Exeter is an excellent school. But I would quibble with at least a couple of your other claims.

Anonymous wrote:There is no grade inflation there, hence 4.0 GPA equivalents are virtually non-existent = average GPA's are much lower than they would have been at their former schools.

I just looked at Exeter's 2011 Profile, which provides the numbers for how many students are getting which grades. 12% have a GPA of A- or higher, another 38% are at B+, and another 30% are at B. That means 80% of the class is receiving grades of B or higher. Only 20% of the class gets a GPA of B- or lower. So the "average" grade at Exeter is a B+. Maybe those are all legitimate grades, but they're clearly not a normal spread among A B C D and F, which suggests to me that there might be some grade inflation (but no different than at many other schools). Maybe what you meant when you said "no inflation" is that there are no extra bumps for taking AP classes.

Anonymous wrote:They don't rank either. That's because most of these kids were #1 at the former schools they attended. But they do provide the quintiles. It's a problem for many as their GPA's at former schools would have been much higher and college admissions offices don't take any of such non-grade inflation and GPA factors properly into account.

Exeter clearly doesn't rank, but I suspect the main reason is the same reason that many other top private schools do not rank. They know that having class ranks puts some kids at the bottom, even though those kids might be quite smart, and the low class rank hurts them in college admissions. I think I recall reading that Thomas Jefferson is proposing to eliminate class rank for this very reason -- to give its students a boost in college admissions. You and I agree that it would be unfair to impose class ranks, but I just don't agree with your claim that it's because these students were the creme-de-la-creme of their former schools.

[Anonymous]

Actually Exeter grades on an 11 point scale. They do have some individual academic prizes and honors that count for something plus they have both Cum Laude Society and Early Cum Laude Society. Early Cum Laude is composed of top 5% after Upper year (about 10.3 GPA). Maybe there HAS been some grade inflation at Exeter in recent years but B+ equivalent (9.5?) is really hard to achieve there, even though some do better. Anyway, almost all these students would have 6.0+ weighted (on a 4.0 scale) at their previous schools (even the ones in the 4th quintile), which by comparison looks a lot better than a B+. Our DC was #1 ranked freshman at previous school with 600+ in the class. DC was well known as the best student and most were certain would retain the top rank. At Exeter DC did probably manage a B+ (9.5) with 2350 SAT but not even cum laude. Meanwhile several of DC's lesser achieving old friends from the old public school ended up at HYPS - regional preference and public school. They all had 5.5+ GPA's because they took so many weighted AP courses. At Exeter the standard courses are more advanced than College Board's AP courses and much more difficult. Our DC breezed through 2 AP courses as a freshman at previous public school but Exeter's rigor was a shock. Now DC is very happy at an outstanding university which is an excellent "fit" but not HYPS, not that HYPS was the goal. This all mentioned to highlight the differences and results in GPA's and how this may effect the the consequent perception of the profile by admissions.

There are very few that get into Exeter who were not formerly the "creme-de-la-creme of their former schools". The few who were not are mostly legacy of large donors or children of VIP's and the famous.

Even though an Exeter student may become less competitive as a HYPS+ candidate the education is terrific and worthy of consideration for students who really want to challenge themselves, and who can qualify. But it is not a feeder to the Ivies. If HYPS+ is the goal it is best to shine in a less competitive environment. DC2 is a senior at what we feel is such a school. DC2 is much less the scholar but is headed this fall to a HYPS+ - again it was not the goal, but in DC2's case it is definitely the right fit for interests. DC2 achieved a lot more with a lot less, even though DC1 is smarter and better educated. However, I have no clue which DC will be most successful! Whatever that means... Nonetheless, all we can say is we're glad it's over, at least for this stage.

[Anonymous]

Ok this whole Exeter/ TJ argument is pointless. 90% of our kids don't attend such a school. I took APs at an inner city high school where not a lot of us passed. Took some I was totally not even close, French. But doing the workload in those classes ensured I was prepared for college. The fact is that most of us will go from ok to generally good high schools into similar types of colleges. AP helps make that transition better. Yes Jay Matthews is self-promoting but he is right about this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But why is it a good thing for a school to push a student to take an AP class if they aren't prepared for it? Wouldn't the student learn more and make actual progress in a class that starts where he/she is? Also, he seems to argue that pushing a student to take an AP class will prepare them for college. I find it more likely that it will scare them from attempting college to take a course where they are totally in the dark and can't "pass" the final test.

This index is just as ridiculous as people who judge a school by how many kids qualify for free lunch.

Sadly, MCPS isn't actually interested in educating it's students. It's all about ratings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does he place Phillips Exeter which has no AP classes, yet kicks TJ's math team in the ass every year during the Math Olympiads? The Exeter teachers refuse to teach their curriculum to a standardized exam owned and controlled by College Board. This WaPo index system is shallow at the very least and does not account for much. Basing education on such narrow parameters equates to a one size fit for all and tends to specialize too many students in the same direction under a binding curriculum. Out of the box thinking and creativity are squashed.

I only take Exeter as an example. There are many many schools that offer great educations without defining themselves through IB or how many AP courses they offer. I would suggest they are better schools than the ones that do.

There is no legitimate way to rank schools. Good schools are the schools that fit and challenge the individual student and where the student prospers holistically according to their talents and abilities.

Get over the ranking thing and look deeper. It's a lot more complex than that.

But it is good for selling news print.

Public school districts like FCPS and Montco give extra points on GPA for AP ,honors, etc. Does Exeter? Matthews kid went to Sidwell and pomona. Since he is J matthews i suppose the kid could have gone anywhere. Some schools have grade deflation or inflation. Others have equilibrium.

Yes the public schools do weight grades but most selective colleges do their own GPAs and take out the weightings. So it's not really relevant in admissions although I think it is probably helpful in comparing kids from the same school system because the weighted GPA gives a sense of the degree of difficulty of the classes for kids with similar GPAs. So a 4.0/4.2 means the kid did not have as challenging a course load as a 4.0/4.6. MCPS does not do class rankings.

[AngryTeacher]

You seem to think that all FARMs kids come from dysfunctional households. I've taught plenty of students on FARMs, and I can honestly tell you that many had parents who held them to high expectations. I didn't conduct my classes any differently.

Please don't generalize.

I know; I teach in the "red zone."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This index is just as ridiculous as people who judge a school by how many kids qualify for free lunch.

Why do you believe a school with >50% free-reduced lunches (and the attendant at-risk students) is going to be able to devote lots of time and attention to an average/slightly above average student who's not otherwise at risk? If they're busy helping Jimmy whose father left at age 2 and whose mom works two jobs (or none at all) and Tommy who was busy eating lead paint as a toddler ... how much time and resources will there be for YOUR kid?

If your kid is in the top 15-20%, great. The "Yale or jail" public schools will work for you.

Otherwise, you might want to consider a school without such a large at-risk student population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This index is just as ridiculous as people who judge a school by how many kids qualify for free lunch.

Why do you believe a school with >50% free-reduced lunches (and the attendant at-risk students) is going to be able to devote lots of time and attention to an average/slightly above average student who's not otherwise at risk? If they're busy helping Jimmy whose father left at age 2 and whose mom works two jobs (or none at all) and Tommy who was busy eating lead paint as a toddler ... how much time and resources will there be for YOUR kid?

If your kid is in the top 15-20%, great. The "Yale or jail" public schools will work for you.

Otherwise, you might want to consider a school without such a large at-risk student population.

BINGO!! My public school completely ignored the middle 1/3rd of students, and it cost some of them the chance to go to a decent college. It should have been criminal...