Does this kind of specific legal parenting restriction exist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does his scariness present in ways that would justify a restraining order, either one protecting you, or one protecting you and the kids?

I have a very scary ex, and we had a restraining order and custody order together that barred contact outside of carefully defined supervised visitation, and also required him to stay away from my home, my job, the kids’ school, and my teenager’s job.

Not physically scary towards the kids. He has escalated his behavior towards me (screaming even though I don’t talk when I see him, physical intimidation) and I have an appointment early tomorrow morning to go through the pros and cons of a restraining order for me, so I’m trying to figure out what I can do to help the kids.

Towards the kids he is just inappropriate (asking invasive questions about their therapy appointments, discussing his legal details, telling them things about me that aren’t real, etc) and he has started violating boundaries in public, forcing hugs and physical contact on them in front of coaches and other parents even when the kids say no or run away, policing their facial expressions, accusing them of things, etc. None of it is black-and-white “bad” behavior but the kids are expressing what seem like bad gut feelings. Our DDs are 11 and 13 so they seem to pick up on more than 9 yo DS.

You posted before. This is not appropriate for a restraining order. You are not allowing him to see his kids. As a parent, he has every right to go to school events, activities and sports. You need to talk to your attorney. He is not abusing them and it sounds like he's upset because of your behavior. He needs a very clear custody order as you are withholding the kids and alienating them.

This

I agree. Alienation is a form of abuse.

OP stated, "Attorney advised having the older ones speak with teachers/coaches about their concerns just so they can keep an eye on them and check in with me if they notice behavior changes."

This is problematic on a couple of fronts. First of all, the KIDS should not be in a position to be telling teachers/coaches that they are "concerned" or "afraid" of their own father. That seems like an attorney is encouraging/piling on towards involving others in the father alienation, driven by the mother.

IMO, OP should have a clear, concise list of dates/times and what exactly the father has done which could be considered abuse. For example, throwing covers off of tween kids (maybe they refused to get up?) does not rise to the level of abuse.

OP here. I can’t put in details because about other incidents but for the covers it was not an attempt to wake the kids up, but a chasing and pursuit and hiding situation following verbal abuse and threats.

My attorney has advised me that there is nothing wrong with having the kids tell their coaches or teachers why they are upset. Coaches need to know why a kid’s performance is off. Teachers need to understand why a kid might be hiding in a classroom until the last minute when all of the other kids are mingling in the hall before the concert. Volleyball is pretty benign, but one kid is in a sport where having an off day mentally is dangerous, so it’s important that the coaches know that and have the information they need to pull a kid over to a conditioning station if they’re rattled or upset. Kids have never said “afraid” to coaches about their father nor have I said that, because I’m very aware of the legal implications of that kind of language. And yet they truly are afraid.

It is really hard to walk the line of protecting children and avoiding false accusations of alienation.

Dates, times and events have been extensively documented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My STBX has become scary and unpredictable, and has initiated a private custody evaluation of himself while trying to get full custody. For now my kids see him for a small amount of time per week primarily in my hopes that they may one day salvage a relationship with him if his mental health improves and because I have concerns about additional legal action should I stop forcing them to see him.

STBX announced that he is going to start showing up at small school events and sports events. These aren't anonymous things with 400 people in an auditorium where the kids could slip away without 1:1 contact with him, but things like a small rock band concert with 20 kids performing after school and a reception after, or practice in an indoor volleyball gym with two rows of bleachers in the parent area. The kids are really, really upset about what they see as an invasion of spaces that are safe spaces for them. Right now, I don't have a way to keep STBX from showing up at school events or sports events. He hasn't been at any of their events since July and initially made a lot of excuses about work and then just stopped showing up, so this is a big shift in his behavior and the kids' expectations.

Is there a name for some kind of temporary order that would allow the kids to still have planned visitation with STBX but prevent him from showing up at events that they don't want him to be at? STBX has access to their activity calendars and so I cannot rely on the kids just not telling him about these things, which is what the kids hoped might work and still would not really be legally justified.

I understand you fear legal issues but you should not be doing this, My mother made me visit my dad until she couldn't physically force me, Even now we have a very strained relationship because of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does his scariness present in ways that would justify a restraining order, either one protecting you, or one protecting you and the kids?

I have a very scary ex, and we had a restraining order and custody order together that barred contact outside of carefully defined supervised visitation, and also required him to stay away from my home, my job, the kids’ school, and my teenager’s job.

Not physically scary towards the kids. He has escalated his behavior towards me (screaming even though I don’t talk when I see him, physical intimidation) and I have an appointment early tomorrow morning to go through the pros and cons of a restraining order for me, so I’m trying to figure out what I can do to help the kids.

Towards the kids he is just inappropriate (asking invasive questions about their therapy appointments, discussing his legal details, telling them things about me that aren’t real, etc) and he has started violating boundaries in public, forcing hugs and physical contact on them in front of coaches and other parents even when the kids say no or run away, policing their facial expressions, accusing them of things, etc. None of it is black-and-white “bad” behavior but the kids are expressing what seem like bad gut feelings. Our DDs are 11 and 13 so they seem to pick up on more than 9 yo DS.

You posted before. This is not appropriate for a restraining order. You are not allowing him to see his kids. As a parent, he has every right to go to school events, activities and sports. You need to talk to your attorney. He is not abusing them and it sounds like he's upset because of your behavior. He needs a very clear custody order as you are withholding the kids and alienating them.

This

I agree. Alienation is a form of abuse.

OP stated, "Attorney advised having the older ones speak with teachers/coaches about their concerns just so they can keep an eye on them and check in with me if they notice behavior changes."

This is problematic on a couple of fronts. First of all, the KIDS should not be in a position to be telling teachers/coaches that they are "concerned" or "afraid" of their own father. That seems like an attorney is encouraging/piling on towards involving others in the father alienation, driven by the mother.

IMO, OP should have a clear, concise list of dates/times and what exactly the father has done which could be considered abuse. For example, throwing covers off of tween kids (maybe they refused to get up?) does not rise to the level of abuse.

Super inappropriate. On the flip side, they an say mom is abusive and CPS can come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My STBX has become scary and unpredictable, and has initiated a private custody evaluation of himself while trying to get full custody. For now my kids see him for a small amount of time per week primarily in my hopes that they may one day salvage a relationship with him if his mental health improves and because I have concerns about additional legal action should I stop forcing them to see him.

STBX announced that he is going to start showing up at small school events and sports events. These aren't anonymous things with 400 people in an auditorium where the kids could slip away without 1:1 contact with him, but things like a small rock band concert with 20 kids performing after school and a reception after, or practice in an indoor volleyball gym with two rows of bleachers in the parent area. The kids are really, really upset about what they see as an invasion of spaces that are safe spaces for them. Right now, I don't have a way to keep STBX from showing up at school events or sports events. He hasn't been at any of their events since July and initially made a lot of excuses about work and then just stopped showing up, so this is a big shift in his behavior and the kids' expectations.

Is there a name for some kind of temporary order that would allow the kids to still have planned visitation with STBX but prevent him from showing up at events that they don't want him to be at? STBX has access to their activity calendars and so I cannot rely on the kids just not telling him about these things, which is what the kids hoped might work and still would not really be legally justified.

I understand you fear legal issues but you should not be doing this, My mother made me visit my dad until she couldn't physically force me, Even now we have a very strained relationship because of that.

Your mom was right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My STBX has become scary and unpredictable, and has initiated a private custody evaluation of himself while trying to get full custody. For now my kids see him for a small amount of time per week primarily in my hopes that they may one day salvage a relationship with him if his mental health improves and because I have concerns about additional legal action should I stop forcing them to see him.

STBX announced that he is going to start showing up at small school events and sports events. These aren't anonymous things with 400 people in an auditorium where the kids could slip away without 1:1 contact with him, but things like a small rock band concert with 20 kids performing after school and a reception after, or practice in an indoor volleyball gym with two rows of bleachers in the parent area. The kids are really, really upset about what they see as an invasion of spaces that are safe spaces for them. Right now, I don't have a way to keep STBX from showing up at school events or sports events. He hasn't been at any of their events since July and initially made a lot of excuses about work and then just stopped showing up, so this is a big shift in his behavior and the kids' expectations.

Is there a name for some kind of temporary order that would allow the kids to still have planned visitation with STBX but prevent him from showing up at events that they don't want him to be at? STBX has access to their activity calendars and so I cannot rely on the kids just not telling him about these things, which is what the kids hoped might work and still would not really be legally justified.

I understand you fear legal issues but you should not be doing this, My mother made me visit my dad until she couldn't physically force me, Even now we have a very strained relationship because of that.

Your mom was right.

That's a mater of perspective, From my perspective she couldn't have been more wrong and she paid the price for it when i went no contact for nearly 10 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My STBX has become scary and unpredictable, and has initiated a private custody evaluation of himself while trying to get full custody. For now my kids see him for a small amount of time per week primarily in my hopes that they may one day salvage a relationship with him if his mental health improves and because I have concerns about additional legal action should I stop forcing them to see him.

STBX announced that he is going to start showing up at small school events and sports events. These aren't anonymous things with 400 people in an auditorium where the kids could slip away without 1:1 contact with him, but things like a small rock band concert with 20 kids performing after school and a reception after, or practice in an indoor volleyball gym with two rows of bleachers in the parent area. The kids are really, really upset about what they see as an invasion of spaces that are safe spaces for them. Right now, I don't have a way to keep STBX from showing up at school events or sports events. He hasn't been at any of their events since July and initially made a lot of excuses about work and then just stopped showing up, so this is a big shift in his behavior and the kids' expectations.

Is there a name for some kind of temporary order that would allow the kids to still have planned visitation with STBX but prevent him from showing up at events that they don't want him to be at? STBX has access to their activity calendars and so I cannot rely on the kids just not telling him about these things, which is what the kids hoped might work and still would not really be legally justified.

I understand you fear legal issues but you should not be doing this, My mother made me visit my dad until she couldn't physically force me, Even now we have a very strained relationship because of that.

Your mom was right.

That's a mater of perspective, From my perspective she couldn't have been more wrong and she paid the price for it when i went no contact for nearly 10 years.

+1 for your mom doing the right thing. The most important thing a divorced parent can do is support a child's relationship with the other parent. If the custody order said your dad had visitation rights, then your mother was not to be faulted for that.

If you are still "blaming" your mother and even as an adult are being vindictive about it, then you are the one in the wrong.

[Anonymous]

Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

Sounds like you encouraged the behavior and set him up to fail as a parent. You give them consequences for treating their dad that way. It’s unacceptable to tell him to go away. You need parenting help for your poor parenting. What kind of parent does that and allows their kids to behave that way? You are the one hurting them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

Sounds like you encouraged the behavior and set him up to fail as a parent. You give them consequences for treating their dad that way. It’s unacceptable to tell him to go away. You need parenting help for your poor parenting. What kind of parent does that and allows their kids to behave that way? You are the one hurting them.

You seem to be unaware that children can in fact form their own opinions independently of their parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

Sounds like you encouraged the behavior and set him up to fail as a parent. You give them consequences for treating their dad that way. It’s unacceptable to tell him to go away. You need parenting help for your poor parenting. What kind of parent does that and allows their kids to behave that way? You are the one hurting them.

I think what you meant to write was “what kind of parent did something so awful over the course of these kids’ childhoods that they now refuse to talk to him or get into his car, and why did he choose to hurt them?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

Sounds like you encouraged the behavior and set him up to fail as a parent. You give them consequences for treating their dad that way. It’s unacceptable to tell him to go away. You need parenting help for your poor parenting. What kind of parent does that and allows their kids to behave that way? You are the one hurting them.

I think what you meant to write was “what kind of parent did something so awful over the course of these kids’ childhoods that they now refuse to talk to him or get into his car, and why did he choose to hurt them?”

Is this how you justify alienation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

Sounds like you encouraged the behavior and set him up to fail as a parent. You give them consequences for treating their dad that way. It’s unacceptable to tell him to go away. You need parenting help for your poor parenting. What kind of parent does that and allows their kids to behave that way? You are the one hurting them.

You seem to be unaware that children can in fact form their own opinions independently of their parents.

It’s rarely independent and they want to please what ever parent they live with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your kids are tweens and are refusing to go with him. Do you have a temporary custody order? I would not force them to go at all. Your job is to validate their feelings. Is your ex prepared to force them into his car? Let him take care of his relationship or lack of relationship with his own kids. You just make them available, not force. This is what I did. In my situation, when ex showed up at events, they refused to talk to him. When he approached them, they told him to go away. They are in therapy; let the therapist work with them on voicing their needs and wants and setting boundaries.

Sounds like you encouraged the behavior and set him up to fail as a parent. You give them consequences for treating their dad that way. It’s unacceptable to tell him to go away. You need parenting help for your poor parenting. What kind of parent does that and allows their kids to behave that way? You are the one hurting them.

No. GAL agreed with kids. Therapist supported kids. Kids do not have to see him anymore. He is the one who caused the alienation by mistreating them and their mom.

[Anonymous]

Good lord, the degree to which people are willing to do mental gymnastics to excuse men from the consequences of their own behavior will never cease to amaze me.

Dad is responsible for his own behavior and any consequences to the relationship between himself and his kids as a result of his behavior. Full stop.

Mom is responsible for making the kids available for visitation according to schedule. She is not responsible for physically forcing a child to visit a parent over that child's objections.

In a situation where the child and parent disagree about visitation agreed to under court order, the Mom has a few choices - consult with your attorney - 1) getting therapy for the child to help the child express reasons for not wanting to visit, set boundaries, and see if there are mutually agreeable alternatives 2) arranging for family therapy with child and inviting other parent to participate. 3) enabling the child to go back to court to express his/her objection and the reasons for it and asking for a custody modification

I faced a simliar situation where my kids no longer wanted to visit with their dad as much for a variety of reasons. It was an issue for him to solve with them, not me. To put the mom in the middle of a father/child conflict is classic psychological triangulation.

To the PP who was angry at your mom for forcing visitation. IME, a child's unwillingness to participate in visitation or custody needs to be really carefully negotiated to avoid bigger court problems or retaliatory physical or financial abuse. Men who are domestic abusers use the courts, police, child custody/visitation or their financial contribution as a way to continue abuse of the mother. It's a very tricky problem to negotiate and 20+years ago it was even more difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good lord, the degree to which people are willing to do mental gymnastics to excuse men from the consequences of their own behavior will never cease to amaze me.

Dad is responsible for his own behavior and any consequences to the relationship between himself and his kids as a result of his behavior. Full stop.

Mom is responsible for making the kids available for visitation according to schedule. She is not responsible for physically forcing a child to visit a parent over that child's objections.

In a situation where the child and parent disagree about visitation agreed to under court order, the Mom has a few choices - consult with your attorney - 1) getting therapy for the child to help the child express reasons for not wanting to visit, set boundaries, and see if there are mutually agreeable alternatives 2) arranging for family therapy with child and inviting other parent to participate. 3) enabling the child to go back to court to express his/her objection and the reasons for it and asking for a custody modification

I faced a simliar situation where my kids no longer wanted to visit with their dad as much for a variety of reasons. It was an issue for him to solve with them, not me. To put the mom in the middle of a father/child conflict is classic psychological triangulation.

To the PP who was angry at your mom for forcing visitation. IME, a child's unwillingness to participate in visitation or custody needs to be really carefully negotiated to avoid bigger court problems or retaliatory physical or financial abuse. Men who are domestic abusers use the courts, police, child custody/visitation or their financial contribution as a way to continue abuse of the mother. It's a very tricky problem to negotiate and 20+years ago it was even more difficult.

The same can be said of you - you've done the exact same thing. Mental gymnastics to justify why you did not fulfill your role as a parent. Sounds like your situation was 20+ years ago, prior to the research and subsequent awareness of how badly alienation affects children. You were an alienator.

Do you really mean to say that if a 6 year old is watching TV and says they don't want to get ready to go and visit their father, they should be allowed to do so? Even if a 14 year old does the same thing there would be no consequences? In your estimation that would be OK because your child was "available" and you would not "force" them.

What if the other parent had custody? Would you have been OK with them telling you they couldn't "force" your kids to see you?

You created a psychological loyalty bind in your child. You communicated that you are OK with them not having a relationship with the other parent.