Can you be a competitive dancer without being good at gymnastics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a DD8 in competitive dance. It’s her 2nd year in comp, but she’d done rec since she was 3. She’s not an acro kid and not naturally flexible, but she’s a great dancer. Both things can be true. Initially she refused acro and I was fine with that, but she’s realized it might be worthwhile to get a few skills. She takes acro at our big dance studio, but it wasn’t a great environment for her. Classes were too big and I didn’t feel like they were teaching her, plus she was fearful. This fall, I got her into acro privates and that’s made all the difference. Her coach is able to walk her through the skills more slowly. She will probably never be a power tumbler, which is fine by both of us, but at least she’s learned a few “tricks” (ugh I hate that word) to include in her solo and gives her more versatility for groups.

In regards to flexibility, that just takes time when she first started at her current studio 2 years ago, her splits looked like lunges, now she’s accidentally kicked herself in the face. But her back flexibility is still limited but getting better. I echo the people who said it’s actually a blessing to learn flexibility slowly. DD has many hyper mobile friends prone to injury. I actually think I will look back in a few years and be glad she had to work so hard at acro too. Every time she’s gained a new skill, it’s already technically correct vs a wonky mess because she’s practiced it 1000s of times.

The mini age in comp dance is hard. DD moves to junior next year, and while that also comes with its own challenges, moms seem to mellow a bit and take things more in stride and realize the growth is not linear. And I’m here for it!

The comp world is an interesting one. Being at the right studio makes all the difference. We are at one that emphasizes technique over winning (though we still win a lot!) and it’s very age appropriate. I’m not sure we ever would’ve gone the comp route at a different studio.

What studio?

We are no longer in DC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a DD8 in competitive dance. It’s her 2nd year in comp, but she’d done rec since she was 3. She’s not an acro kid and not naturally flexible, but she’s a great dancer. Both things can be true. Initially she refused acro and I was fine with that, but she’s realized it might be worthwhile to get a few skills. She takes acro at our big dance studio, but it wasn’t a great environment for her. Classes were too big and I didn’t feel like they were teaching her, plus she was fearful. This fall, I got her into acro privates and that’s made all the difference. Her coach is able to walk her through the skills more slowly. She will probably never be a power tumbler, which is fine by both of us, but at least she’s learned a few “tricks” (ugh I hate that word) to include in her solo and gives her more versatility for groups.

In regards to flexibility, that just takes time when she first started at her current studio 2 years ago, her splits looked like lunges, now she’s accidentally kicked herself in the face. But her back flexibility is still limited but getting better. I echo the people who said it’s actually a blessing to learn flexibility slowly. DD has many hyper mobile friends prone to injury. I actually think I will look back in a few years and be glad she had to work so hard at acro too. Every time she’s gained a new skill, it’s already technically correct vs a wonky mess because she’s practiced it 1000s of times.

The mini age in comp dance is hard. DD moves to junior next year, and while that also comes with its own challenges, moms seem to mellow a bit and take things more in stride and realize the growth is not linear. And I’m here for it!

The comp world is an interesting one. Being at the right studio makes all the difference. We are at one that emphasizes technique over winning (though we still win a lot!) and it’s very age appropriate. I’m not sure we ever would’ve gone the comp route at a different studio.

What classes teach technique and how many hours in actual classes vs rehearsing

Once choreography is learned at our studio, they only practice each routine 15 minutes/week. One of hers practices 30 minutes/week because it’s a longer/bigger production. So between all of her routines, she rehearses under 2 hours/week. She’s in class 10 hours/week, all genres - ballet, technique, tap, stretch, hip hop, even more. Lots of studios spend a crazy amount of time rehearsing… but they are all sick of the routines come this time of year, so they put emphasis on training.

Yes, this is an absolutely insane amount of class. She wants even more … but she’s not required to take this much. I think she’s only required to take 4 hours. That’s what we did last season. Then she asked to go all in for summer intensives last year (I agreed because it was only 4 weeks). I figured she’d burn out, but nope. She’s just all in, she’s found her thing. She’s never once not wanted to go which is mind boggling to me, because I often don’t want to drive her there haha. I’ll support it until it’s a problem and so far it’s not. I don’t know how she’s not exhausted, but she’s not. It’s a weird world to me never having done anything at this level growing up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of talk right now in the dance world about the role of acro in competitive dance. I side with the people and choreographers/judges who argue that acro is used as cheap filler in routines, is rarely connected to choreography, and is disproportionately valued in the competitive dance world while adding little actual dance value. If you want, you can go down an internet rabbit hole on this topic.

The reality is that few studios are going to teach acro safely. So if your child wants to eventually learn acro in a dance context, don't let her do it in some little dance studio on a panel mat with sketchy spotting and poor technique. Find a solid, high quality studio that emphasizes actual dance technique over putting 5 year olds in a "company". And find a solid, quality gymnastics gym that offers tumbling-only classes. Both of these things exist, but they aren't going to be pushing the kinds of flashy videos featuring 7 year olds doing crazy tricks with hastags like #tinydancer #thisis7 #futurestar that infiltrate your instagram feed.

+1 This would be Raynor van der Merwe at Encore Performers (Encore Theatre Arts Project). Her philosophy is wonderful. Children stay in the same level for two years, with year one exposure and repetition/growth, and the second year is mastery. She nurtures performers, and all one has to do is attend their holiday show (she has put one on every December since 1994) to see how she prioritizes working on stage. My daughter is not in her ETAP company, but three of her teachers have performed multiple shows either on Broadway (2) or on a national tour (1). Strongly recommend this studio!

https://www.instagram.com/encore_tap?igsh=NmNpeGN2d3JuOWFm

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/making-the-impact-a-dance-competition-podcast/id1482584144?i=1000581023022

[Anonymous]

Oh, i love the ETAP Christmas show! I try to go every year. It’s always so much fun.

[Anonymous]

My daughter did a minor competition dance team from ages 4 to 6 and then moved to just regular dance after that due to cost and time commitment of competition dance once you get to 1st grade. She had zero interest in dancing 4-5 days a week for hours at a time nor did I have any interest in spending $1000 a month.

The studio will tell you it’s two days a week three hours a day and $300. Then you find out everyone on that team also does a separate acrobatics class plus separate privates weekly for acro, technic, and a potential solo.

Then the Studio will require Saturday rehearsals once comp competition seasons about to heat up, but the Saturday rehearsals are an extra $25-$50 per Saturday so that they can pay the instructors.

Then your costumes for each dance may start at about 150 but they’ll have to be crystalled as well - which will be another 150 and if you’re doing a solo you can expect to drop five or 600 on a costume.

Then you’ll get the emails that the upcoming competition is $250-$400 to enter depending on the number of dances. That does not include the $50 a day parent entry fee or the hotel because it’s paid for play and you have to stay at the hotel (even if you have family you could stay with). Or flights (there will be at least in TN or TX). Plus they have team practice gear and jackets and water bottles and even bows you have to buy. The bow is $35-40 by itself.

Then there is the cost of Summit (in Georgia I think) and if they make it - the annual week in Disney for nationals. They could win a paid bid to nationals but it covers their entry fee and maybe the cost of their shared room (so 1/4 the cost of the hotel). So you’ll still be covering flights, hotels and park entry fees and competition entry fees for a week in Disney. Plus if the go to nationals their may be new special costumes/jackets etc that will run another $500 or so.

My friends daughter had two solos this year and each costume was custom made for $800 each. She’s $10. They had to fly to four of the competitions this year because it was too far to drive / they also drove 3-5 hours to attend a few others - all of which required her daughter to miss multiple days of school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My daughter did a minor competition dance team from ages 4 to 6 and then moved to just regular dance after that due to cost and time commitment of competition dance once you get to 1st grade. She had zero interest in dancing 4-5 days a week for hours at a time nor did I have any interest in spending $1000 a month.

The studio will tell you it’s two days a week three hours a day and $300. Then you find out everyone on that team also does a separate acrobatics class plus separate privates weekly for acro, technic, and a potential solo.

Then the Studio will require Saturday rehearsals once comp competition seasons about to heat up, but the Saturday rehearsals are an extra $25-$50 per Saturday so that they can pay the instructors.

Then your costumes for each dance may start at about 150 but they’ll have to be crystalled as well - which will be another 150 and if you’re doing a solo you can expect to drop five or 600 on a costume.

Then you’ll get the emails that the upcoming competition is $250-$400 to enter depending on the number of dances. That does not include the $50 a day parent entry fee or the hotel because it’s paid for play and you have to stay at the hotel (even if you have family you could stay with). Or flights (there will be at least in TN or TX). Plus they have team practice gear and jackets and water bottles and even bows you have to buy. The bow is $35-40 by itself.

Then there is the cost of Summit (in Georgia I think) and if they make it - the annual week in Disney for nationals. They could win a paid bid to nationals but it covers their entry fee and maybe the cost of their shared room (so 1/4 the cost of the hotel). So you’ll still be covering flights, hotels and park entry fees and competition entry fees for a week in Disney. Plus if the go to nationals their may be new special costumes/jackets etc that will run another $500 or so.

My friends daughter had two solos this year and each costume was custom made for $800 each. She’s $10. They had to fly to four of the competitions this year because it was too far to drive / they also drove 3-5 hours to attend a few others - all of which required her daughter to miss multiple days of school.

This sounds like all-star dance.

I’ve never paid more than $250 for a solo costume. I’ve never paid an entry fee to a competition. I’ve never had to pay for extra rehearsals (except solos). I’ve never had to buy a bow??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My daughter did a minor competition dance team from ages 4 to 6 and then moved to just regular dance after that due to cost and time commitment of competition dance once you get to 1st grade. She had zero interest in dancing 4-5 days a week for hours at a time nor did I have any interest in spending $1000 a month.

The studio will tell you it’s two days a week three hours a day and $300. Then you find out everyone on that team also does a separate acrobatics class plus separate privates weekly for acro, technic, and a potential solo.

Then the Studio will require Saturday rehearsals once comp competition seasons about to heat up, but the Saturday rehearsals are an extra $25-$50 per Saturday so that they can pay the instructors.

Then your costumes for each dance may start at about 150 but they’ll have to be crystalled as well - which will be another 150 and if you’re doing a solo you can expect to drop five or 600 on a costume.

Then you’ll get the emails that the upcoming competition is $250-$400 to enter depending on the number of dances. That does not include the $50 a day parent entry fee or the hotel because it’s paid for play and you have to stay at the hotel (even if you have family you could stay with). Or flights (there will be at least in TN or TX). Plus they have team practice gear and jackets and water bottles and even bows you have to buy. The bow is $35-40 by itself.

Then there is the cost of Summit (in Georgia I think) and if they make it - the annual week in Disney for nationals. They could win a paid bid to nationals but it covers their entry fee and maybe the cost of their shared room (so 1/4 the cost of the hotel). So you’ll still be covering flights, hotels and park entry fees and competition entry fees for a week in Disney. Plus if the go to nationals their may be new special costumes/jackets etc that will run another $500 or so.

My friends daughter had two solos this year and each costume was custom made for $800 each. She’s $10. They had to fly to four of the competitions this year because it was too far to drive / they also drove 3-5 hours to attend a few others - all of which required her daughter to miss multiple days of school.

This sounds like all-star dance.

I’ve never paid more than $250 for a solo costume. I’ve never paid an entry fee to a competition. I’ve never had to pay for extra rehearsals (except solos). I’ve never had to buy a bow??

$250 for a costume is still too much. Entry fees are common. Point is you pay more for all these items that have nothing to do about learning how to dance than you do for classes.

[Anonymous]

Costume fees are under $50 for my dd

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of talk right now in the dance world about the role of acro in competitive dance. I side with the people and choreographers/judges who argue that acro is used as cheap filler in routines, is rarely connected to choreography, and is disproportionately valued in the competitive dance world while adding little actual dance value. If you want, you can go down an internet rabbit hole on this topic.

The reality is that few studios are going to teach acro safely. So if your child wants to eventually learn acro in a dance context, don't let her do it in some little dance studio on a panel mat with sketchy spotting and poor technique. Find a solid, high quality studio that emphasizes actual dance technique over putting 5 year olds in a "company". And find a solid, quality gymnastics gym that offers tumbling-only classes. Both of these things exist, but they aren't going to be pushing the kinds of flashy videos featuring 7 year olds doing crazy tricks with hastags like #tinydancer #thisis7 #futurestar that infiltrate your instagram feed.

+1 This would be Raynor van der Merwe at Encore Performers (Encore Theatre Arts Project). Her philosophy is wonderful. Children stay in the same level for two years, with year one exposure and repetition/growth, and the second year is mastery. She nurtures performers, and all one has to do is attend their holiday show (she has put one on every December since 1994) to see how she prioritizes working on stage. My daughter is not in her ETAP company, but three of her teachers have performed multiple shows either on Broadway (2) or on a national tour (1). Strongly recommend this studio!

https://www.instagram.com/encore_tap?igsh=NmNpeGN2d3JuOWFm

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/making-the-impact-a-dance-competition-podcast/id1482584144?i=1000581023022

Performers rarely make good teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My daughter did a minor competition dance team from ages 4 to 6 and then moved to just regular dance after that due to cost and time commitment of competition dance once you get to 1st grade. She had zero interest in dancing 4-5 days a week for hours at a time nor did I have any interest in spending $1000 a month.

The studio will tell you it’s two days a week three hours a day and $300. Then you find out everyone on that team also does a separate acrobatics class plus separate privates weekly for acro, technic, and a potential solo.

Then the Studio will require Saturday rehearsals once comp competition seasons about to heat up, but the Saturday rehearsals are an extra $25-$50 per Saturday so that they can pay the instructors.

Then your costumes for each dance may start at about 150 but they’ll have to be crystalled as well - which will be another 150 and if you’re doing a solo you can expect to drop five or 600 on a costume.

Then you’ll get the emails that the upcoming competition is $250-$400 to enter depending on the number of dances. That does not include the $50 a day parent entry fee or the hotel because it’s paid for play and you have to stay at the hotel (even if you have family you could stay with). Or flights (there will be at least in TN or TX). Plus they have team practice gear and jackets and water bottles and even bows you have to buy. The bow is $35-40 by itself.

Then there is the cost of Summit (in Georgia I think) and if they make it - the annual week in Disney for nationals. They could win a paid bid to nationals but it covers their entry fee and maybe the cost of their shared room (so 1/4 the cost of the hotel). So you’ll still be covering flights, hotels and park entry fees and competition entry fees for a week in Disney. Plus if the go to nationals their may be new special costumes/jackets etc that will run another $500 or so.

My friends daughter had two solos this year and each costume was custom made for $800 each. She’s $10. They had to fly to four of the competitions this year because it was too far to drive / they also drove 3-5 hours to attend a few others - all of which required her daughter to miss multiple days of school.

This sounds like all-star dance.

I’ve never paid more than $250 for a solo costume. I’ve never paid an entry fee to a competition. I’ve never had to pay for extra rehearsals (except solos). I’ve never had to buy a bow??

$250 for a costume is still too much. Entry fees are common. Point is you pay more for all these items that have nothing to do about learning how to dance than you do for classes.

Too much to you. I think it’s fine. I’ve been to tons of dance competitions and there’s never an entry fee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a lot of talk right now in the dance world about the role of acro in competitive dance. I side with the people and choreographers/judges who argue that acro is used as cheap filler in routines, is rarely connected to choreography, and is disproportionately valued in the competitive dance world while adding little actual dance value. If you want, you can go down an internet rabbit hole on this topic.

The reality is that few studios are going to teach acro safely. So if your child wants to eventually learn acro in a dance context, don't let her do it in some little dance studio on a panel mat with sketchy spotting and poor technique. Find a solid, high quality studio that emphasizes actual dance technique over putting 5 year olds in a "company". And find a solid, quality gymnastics gym that offers tumbling-only classes. Both of these things exist, but they aren't going to be pushing the kinds of flashy videos featuring 7 year olds doing crazy tricks with hastags like #tinydancer #thisis7 #futurestar that infiltrate your instagram feed.

+1 This would be Raynor van der Merwe at Encore Performers (Encore Theatre Arts Project). Her philosophy is wonderful. Children stay in the same level for two years, with year one exposure and repetition/growth, and the second year is mastery. She nurtures performers, and all one has to do is attend their holiday show (she has put one on every December since 1994) to see how she prioritizes working on stage. My daughter is not in her ETAP company, but three of her teachers have performed multiple shows either on Broadway (2) or on a national tour (1). Strongly recommend this studio!

https://www.instagram.com/encore_tap?igsh=NmNpeGN2d3JuOWFm

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/making-the-impact-a-dance-competition-podcast/id1482584144?i=1000581023022

Performers rarely make good teachers.

I can’t speak to a qualitative analysis of all performer-teachers (I would be interested in the citation you have for your claim), but Paige Williams, Luke Spring, Becca Perron, and Courtney Moran Rosendall are tremendous instructors (I evaluate educators, am a former elementary teacher, and have worked as a professor for 12 years, so I have terribly high standards. 😊.) The podcast episode above featuring Raynor is excellent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My daughter did a minor competition dance team from ages 4 to 6 and then moved to just regular dance after that due to cost and time commitment of competition dance once you get to 1st grade. She had zero interest in dancing 4-5 days a week for hours at a time nor did I have any interest in spending $1000 a month.

The studio will tell you it’s two days a week three hours a day and $300. Then you find out everyone on that team also does a separate acrobatics class plus separate privates weekly for acro, technic, and a potential solo.

Then the Studio will require Saturday rehearsals once comp competition seasons about to heat up, but the Saturday rehearsals are an extra $25-$50 per Saturday so that they can pay the instructors.

Then your costumes for each dance may start at about 150 but they’ll have to be crystalled as well - which will be another 150 and if you’re doing a solo you can expect to drop five or 600 on a costume.

Then you’ll get the emails that the upcoming competition is $250-$400 to enter depending on the number of dances. That does not include the $50 a day parent entry fee or the hotel because it’s paid for play and you have to stay at the hotel (even if you have family you could stay with). Or flights (there will be at least in TN or TX). Plus they have team practice gear and jackets and water bottles and even bows you have to buy. The bow is $35-40 by itself.

Then there is the cost of Summit (in Georgia I think) and if they make it - the annual week in Disney for nationals. They could win a paid bid to nationals but it covers their entry fee and maybe the cost of their shared room (so 1/4 the cost of the hotel). So you’ll still be covering flights, hotels and park entry fees and competition entry fees for a week in Disney. Plus if the go to nationals their may be new special costumes/jackets etc that will run another $500 or so.

My friends daughter had two solos this year and each costume was custom made for $800 each. She’s $10. They had to fly to four of the competitions this year because it was too far to drive / they also drove 3-5 hours to attend a few others - all of which required her daughter to miss multiple days of school.

This sounds like all-star dance.

I’ve never paid more than $250 for a solo costume. I’ve never paid an entry fee to a competition. I’ve never had to pay for extra rehearsals (except solos). I’ve never had to buy a bow??

I think this is the Varsity Dance Summit to which you refer: https://www.varsity.com/all-star/competitions/end-of-season-events/fans-the-dance-summit/

It seems similar to All-Star Cheer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t seem like there’s anything good about competitive dance.

It's basically kid pageants with some dance skill thrown in. Horrible culture. I danced from age 6 to age 26, my DD dances. If you love dance, just go to a dance studio where you get to dance. One or two recitals a year for family and friends. Older, more serious students get opportunities to perform in a more professional way, a reward for years of dedication and love of dance, not a cheap trophy for doing a 2 minute routine in a convention center in front of a bunch of other competitive dance teams.

Yes and yes. And the dumb faces they learn to make. I just cannot..

We go to Encore, which is exactly what you describe. Is that where your daughter attends dance class too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My daughter did a minor competition dance team from ages 4 to 6 and then moved to just regular dance after that due to cost and time commitment of competition dance once you get to 1st grade. She had zero interest in dancing 4-5 days a week for hours at a time nor did I have any interest in spending $1000 a month.

The studio will tell you it’s two days a week three hours a day and $300. Then you find out everyone on that team also does a separate acrobatics class plus separate privates weekly for acro, technic, and a potential solo.

Then the Studio will require Saturday rehearsals once comp competition seasons about to heat up, but the Saturday rehearsals are an extra $25-$50 per Saturday so that they can pay the instructors.

Then your costumes for each dance may start at about 150 but they’ll have to be crystalled as well - which will be another 150 and if you’re doing a solo you can expect to drop five or 600 on a costume.

Then you’ll get the emails that the upcoming competition is $250-$400 to enter depending on the number of dances. That does not include the $50 a day parent entry fee or the hotel because it’s paid for play and you have to stay at the hotel (even if you have family you could stay with). Or flights (there will be at least in TN or TX). Plus they have team practice gear and jackets and water bottles and even bows you have to buy. The bow is $35-40 by itself.

Then there is the cost of Summit (in Georgia I think) and if they make it - the annual week in Disney for nationals. They could win a paid bid to nationals but it covers their entry fee and maybe the cost of their shared room (so 1/4 the cost of the hotel). So you’ll still be covering flights, hotels and park entry fees and competition entry fees for a week in Disney. Plus if the go to nationals their may be new special costumes/jackets etc that will run another $500 or so.

My friends daughter had two solos this year and each costume was custom made for $800 each. She’s $10. They had to fly to four of the competitions this year because it was too far to drive / they also drove 3-5 hours to attend a few others - all of which required her daughter to miss multiple days of school.

This sounds like all-star dance.

I’ve never paid more than $250 for a solo costume. I’ve never paid an entry fee to a competition. I’ve never had to pay for extra rehearsals (except solos). I’ve never had to buy a bow??

I think this is the Varsity Dance Summit to which you refer: https://www.varsity.com/all-star/competitions/end-of-season-events/fans-the-dance-summit/

It seems similar to All-Star Cheer.

Yes that’s it! Again we didn’t pursue it - thought about it but it was too much money and time and my daughter wasn’t that passionate about it.

Had she loved dance and wanted it then we probably would have done it until all the fees started piling on and I learned that it really wasn’t $200-300 a month.

So now she takes 2 rec classes a week for $160 a month at a studio five minutes from our house.

Although once you factor in dance shoes, practices leotards/tights, costumes, pictures, recital fees and a week or two of dance camp in the summer it’s closer to $200 a month.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t seem like there’s anything good about competitive dance.

It's basically kid pageants with some dance skill thrown in. Horrible culture. I danced from age 6 to age 26, my DD dances. If you love dance, just go to a dance studio where you get to dance. One or two recitals a year for family and friends. Older, more serious students get opportunities to perform in a more professional way, a reward for years of dedication and love of dance, not a cheap trophy for doing a 2 minute routine in a convention center in front of a bunch of other competitive dance teams.

Yes and yes. And the dumb faces they learn to make. I just cannot..

We go to Encore, which is exactly what you describe. Is that where your daughter attends dance class too?

PP re attending Encore, and I did not mean to reply to the “dumb faces” comment. I meant to reply to the comment, “If you love dance, just go to a dance studio where you get to dance. One or two recitals a year for family and friends. Older, more serious students get opportunities to perform in a more professional way, a reward for years of dedication and love of dance, not a cheap trophy for doing a 2 minute routine in a convention center in front of a bunch of other competitive dance teams.”