Admitting you are Asian (college apps)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Asians face the same discrimination as blacks in job applications.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

Well that is a study with an incredibly poor design. What happens when you deracify resumes of white applicants? (Not that the study defines "whitening."). It could just mean that employers prefer applicants that don't join race-based organizations so they lessen the likelihood of having to deal with racial horseshit later on. Whitening by saying you have an interest in outdoor activities as opposed to a more esoteric, race-based activity? Maybe a company prefers employees with more common activities which lead to more bonding. Calling outdoor activities "white" is an unjustified way of making the study "about" race.

Of course, I should have known the study was crap; it came from Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians face the same discrimination as blacks in job applications.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

Well that is a study with an incredibly poor design. What happens when you deracify resumes of white applicants? (Not that the study defines "whitening."). It could just mean that employers prefer applicants that don't join race-based organizations so they lessen the likelihood of having to deal with racial horseshit later on. Whitening by saying you have an interest in outdoor activities as opposed to a more esoteric, race-based activity? Maybe a company prefers employees with more common activities which lead to more bonding. Calling outdoor activities "white" is an unjustified way of making the study "about" race.

Of course, I should have known the study was crap; it came from Harvard.

Your last sentence gave your IQ away.

[Anonymous]

I have white guilt for only one thing: the way Asians are openly discriminated against by colleges, universities, grad schools in this country for being Asian. Imagine if premiere higher institutions of learning penalized blacks in the way that they now openly penalize the Asians, eg, lowered already low SAT scores simply for being black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians face the same discrimination as blacks in job applications.

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews

Well that is a study with an incredibly poor design. What happens when you deracify resumes of white applicants? (Not that the study defines "whitening."). It could just mean that employers prefer applicants that don't join race-based organizations so they lessen the likelihood of having to deal with racial horseshit later on. Whitening by saying you have an interest in outdoor activities as opposed to a more esoteric, race-based activity? Maybe a company prefers employees with more common activities which lead to more bonding. Calling outdoor activities "white" is an unjustified way of making the study "about" race.

Of course, I should have known the study was crap; it came from Harvard.

Would a study from Trump u. be better? LOL What about a study from Georgetown or Upenn?

[Anonymous]

How about if you comment on the study design rather than the throwaway line at the end? A large part of the problem is that it comes from the Business School rather a social science department.

BTW, my PhD is from Stanford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about if you comment on the study design rather than the throwaway line at the end? A large part of the problem is that it comes from the Business School rather a social science department.

BTW, my PhD is from Stanford.

The study was conducted by " organizational behavior and human resource management", which is a discipline that is a bit like social sciences - it's the study of human behavior in business and within companies (I have studied a bit of it, along with anthropology, including cultural anthropology - study of human behavior)

BTW, one of the folks on the study was a doctoral candidate from Stanford. What's your phD in?

DeCelles co-authored a September 2016 article about the two-year study in Administrative Science Quarterly called Whitened Resumes: Race and Self-Presentation in the Labor Market (pdf) with Sonia K. Kang, assistant professor of organizational behavior and human resource management at the University of Toronto Mississauga; András Tilcsik, assistant professor of strategic management at the University of Toronto; and Sora Jun, a doctoral candidate at Stanford University.

Two of those who conducted the study are from Canada, and they aren't as into BLM or "racism is everywhere" mantra, so I don't think they had an agenda.

[Anonymous]

NPR story on discrimination against Asian Americans
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/23/516823230/asian-last-names-lead-to-fewer-job-interviews-still

And who can forget this NPR story on faculty bias which affected female Asian students the most.

https://www.npr.org/2014/04/22/305814367/evidence-of-racial-gender-biases-found-in-faculty-mentoring

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NPR story on discrimination against Asian Americans
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/23/516823230/asian-last-names-lead-to-fewer-job-interviews-still

And who can forget this NPR story on faculty bias which affected female Asian students the most.

https://www.npr.org/2014/04/22/305814367/evidence-of-racial-gender-biases-found-in-faculty-mentoring

In 2009, Texas state representative Betty Brown suggested during House testimony that all Chinese-Americans change their names to ones "we could deal with more readily here."

To be fair, some of the names are difficult to pronounce or don't translate well into English. I've seen a few doozies where I could not help but chuckle. But, then I've seen a few "white" names that made me think how unfortunate that name is, as well. That would not preclude looking at their resumes, though.

This is not to say that there is no racism in the workplace against Asian Am.. I believe that study.

-signed an Asian American female

[Anonymous]

Economics. So I looked at the underlying study. Apparently it wasn't a Harvard study!
To actual study does discuss some of the issue I brought up but doesn't attempt to test between the alternatives. For example, is deracifying actually depoliticizing? This could have been tested by including information on white applicants. Is there a distinction between "whitening" and neutralizing? One can't tell using the experimental design.
As far as companies spouting a commitment to diversity not following it in practice, I certainly believe that.
I am sort of sensitive to this issue because I once got an interview based on my incorrectly inferred race based on my last name. Upon meeting me in person, the interview quickly ended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Economics. So I looked at the underlying study. Apparently it wasn't a Harvard study!
To actual study does discuss some of the issue I brought up but doesn't attempt to test between the alternatives. For example, is deracifying actually depoliticizing? This could have been tested by including information on white applicants. Is there a distinction between "whitening" and neutralizing? One can't tell using the experimental design.
As far as companies spouting a commitment to diversity not following it in practice, I certainly believe that.
I am sort of sensitive to this issue because I once got an interview based on my incorrectly inferred race based on my last name. Upon meeting me in person, the interview quickly ended.

The only way you could "neutralize" is to have every applicant have an ID number, and the interviewer only sees the number, not the names or faces, and the applicants type out their responses to interview questions.

[Anonymous]

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Would you be okay with job applicants of certain racial backgrounds being less likely to get jobs than equally qualified candidates of different backgrounds because the company desires diverse employees? I'm not necessarily arguing against what you're saying. Just curious.

Not the PP, but yes, I would be comfortable with the following: Two equally qualified candidates, one of whom is demographically similar to existing staff, and one of whom represents an identity not currently represented. The latter gets the job on the basis of bringing a new perspective, which can only be good for business.

To be more concrete, let’s say 1 is a Jew and 1 Indian American (or Black, or Hispanic...) Because 2% Jews are are already over represented at Harvard, you would pick against the Jewish student.

If all else is equal, then yes, you should choose the one from the underrepresented group. Was this question supposed to be some kind of a gotcha? -a Jewish person

WOW! I thought that no one could get into Harvard without at least 1420+ (at bare minimum). That makes me angry. Sorry.

Who said “all else being equal?” The H lawsuit presupposes Asians with superior stats.

Stats aren’t everything. That’s the thing. And where the Tiger mommies go wrong.

Stats aren’t everything cuz it’s “holistic.” That’s where H goes wrong. All their URM grads are holding less than perfect sheepskin cuz stats aren’t everything. It’s “holistic” where the society at large evaluate their URM graduates who can’t perform as well as UCLA or UC Berkeley grads.

Well, your behavior in this thread and the demonstration of the poor way in which you think is a big clue why your child would be passed over, assuming your child exhibits similar characteristics and tendencies. You, simply, are not elite college material. Your child probably is not, either.

It’s a fact that URMs with H degrees don’t have the same life outcome as whites.

As another PP mentioned, this is due to systemic racism.

Employers are simply discounting the Harvard premium when factoring in Harvard URMs, legacies, sports, etc.

Got data? Sounds like wishful thinking. The Harvard students in those categories have their pick of top firms/positions. Many of the legacies and athletes are well liked and know how to read. On top of that, they come off as much more intelligent than average or even above-average state school kids.

There’s an article posted above that shows Harvard isn’t all that. Harvard law and medical schools routinely reject Harvard undergrads.

Also check out the article posted above that shows Harvard URM’s average SAT is below 1200.

Below 1200 typically get a student into mediocre state universities. No, they DO NOT “come off as much more intelligent than average or even above-average state school kids.“

You probably scored below 1200 because if you read and comprehended the article it says that 1170 is the cutoff for URMs for Harvard to reach out to you to see if you want to apply. It’s not even the average score of URM applicants or much less of URM admits.

1170 is a pretty low bar. You can find kids with higher stats at any local community college.

At every community college? Maybe one kid. Although it seems at that score point cc to 4 year might be a better option because a kid might be a conscientious student but won’t get into UVa or VT at that range. My kid got about 200 points higher than that and the thought of them applying to Harvard would’ve been ludicrous.

1170 is pretty close to being the national SAT average. If you read the article carefully, it tells you Harvard admits more URM kids with 550 SAT math than 650 or over.

People as patently stupid as you should not be allowed to comment on anyone else’s intelligence:

“In 2009, the number of African American applicants with scores above 640 was more than double the number of applicants with scores below 550. But for the Class of 2012, there were fewer African American applicants with math scores above 640 than below 550.“

Applicants =\= admits.

The entire point of the article is criticizing Harvard for recruiting URM applicants who have no chance of being admitted.

Read again.
The stats were exposed during the litigation.

Boy you are doubling down on this. Average SAT scores for African American admits were in the 1400-1420 range. This is the data Harvard provided and was accepted by the expert for the plaintiff. See page 26

https://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Doc-415-1-Arcidiacono-Expert-Report.pdf

You do know that is way, way lower than the average admit, let alone the average Asian admit?

Yes but that wasn’t the point. The point was that URMs were in the 1170-1200 range. Move the goal posts all you want but at least admit you were wrong and misleading on that point.

By way of comparison- all admits to Notre Dame averaged about 1475. Berkeley is around 1400. Duke is 1450. UVA is 1400.

You are illiterate! And the article is old! 1170-1200 is not the admitted student range. They encouraged kids to apply who could not and did not get in. Here is the actual information from the Harvard Crimson:

****
Over an 18-year period stretching from 1995 to 2013, Asian-American students admitted to Harvard scored higher on the SAT than did their peer admits from other racial groups, according to data released in the admissions trial last week.

A Crimson analysis of the previously confidential dataset — which spans admissions cycles starting with the Class of 2000 and ends with the cycle for the Class of 2017 — revealed that Asian-Americans admitted to Harvard earned an average SAT score of 767 across all sections. Every section of the SAT has a maximum score of 800.

By comparison, white admits earned an average score of 745 across all sections, Hispanic-American admits earned an average of 718, Native-American and Native-Hawaiian admits an average of 712, and African-American admits an average of 704.

The same general pattern held true for Harvard applicants belonging to these racial groups in this time period. Asian-American applicants on average scored highest on the SAT and African-American applicants scored lowest.
***
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

PP is exaggerating the gap and the Asian scores are not so much higher than anyone other group.

[Anonymous]

Have you all even looked at the way Harvard discriminated against Asians? It was just on test scores. The 'holistic' process docked Asian students because they probably were 'going to study too much', weren't funny, were quiet, or filled any sort of stereotypical Asian personality. Basically, Asians are penalized for probably going to 'not being able to keep it real'.

It is racist discrimination, period. That's why I'd never send my kind to a 2nd tier university like Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have you all even looked at the way Harvard discriminated against Asians? It was just on test scores. The 'holistic' process docked Asian students because they probably were 'going to study too much', weren't funny, were quiet, or filled any sort of stereotypical Asian personality. Basically, Asians are penalized for probably going to 'not being able to keep it real'.

It is racist discrimination, period. That's why I'd never send my kind to a 2nd tier university like Harvard.

That’s great! Another kid will happily take their spot. There are a lot of Asian kids at Harvard ( and at all elite universities) so your kid will not be missed. Some of the alumni comments may be racist, some may be sexist, some may be homophobic but they actually have a great mixture of happy students that do well in life. Harvard will be just fine and has done a great job of picking their class. Unfortunately some kids of every race and sex don’t get in. Glad you don’t want your kid to go and hope some of these bitter Asian parents are able to move on. Everyone else whose kid does not get in celebrates where they do without this bitterness. It’s not a right based on one particular gpa, test or activity. Sometimes kids get rejected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you all even looked at the way Harvard discriminated against Asians? It was just on test scores. The 'holistic' process docked Asian students because they probably were 'going to study too much', weren't funny, were quiet, or filled any sort of stereotypical Asian personality. Basically, Asians are penalized for probably going to 'not being able to keep it real'.

It is racist discrimination, period. That's why I'd never send my kind to a 2nd tier university like Harvard.

That’s great! Another kid will happily take their spot. There are a lot of Asian kids at Harvard ( and at all elite universities) so your kid will not be missed. Some of the alumni comments may be racist, some may be sexist, some may be homophobic but they actually have a great mixture of happy students that do well in life. Harvard will be just fine and has done a great job of picking their class. Unfortunately some kids of every race and sex don’t get in. Glad you don’t want your kid to go and hope some of these bitter Asian parents are able to move on. Everyone else whose kid does not get in celebrates where they do without this bitterness. It’s not a right based on one particular gpa, test or activity. Sometimes kids get rejected.

Sometimes kids get rejected. Sometimes kids get rejected because of their race. The latter is not ok and it’s happening to Asians at elite universities on a daily basis. But as long as Spencer and Kimberly continue to get in on their legacy preferences, schools are happy to tout their “holistic” admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I have white guilt for only one thing: the way Asians are openly discriminated against by colleges, universities, grad schools in this country for being Asian. Imagine if premiere higher institutions of learning penalized blacks in the way that they now openly penalize the Asians, eg, lowered already low SAT scores simply for being black.

Why on earth would you have white guilt?

It's not my fault some progressives came up with some racial bean counting system.

I think we should just give every kid an eight hour test and let the chips fall where they may.

But nobody ever asked me.