Cities with No Children

[Anonymous]

You make it sound like most people prefer to live in 30-story towers and it's all by choice and that's how most of the world lives.

Most people, given a choice of a brand new 3000 sq foot unit in a hirise, and the same 3000 sq foot unit on the ground (no elevator trip needed) and with their own yard, all in the same location would prefer the latter sure (though a few would prefer the view).

But its banal.

Life is full of tradeoffs. Tradeoffs on location - which include both commute length, commute mode options, access to amenities, etc. And age and quality of units.

In DC (this is a DC area forum, and OP asked about DC) the tradeoffs are significant enough that MANY people take the multifamily choice. Not only in the District, but in the inner suburbs as well, and some do further out (new pricey high rise apts in Tysons appear to be doing pretty well).

Some upper middle class families with school age kids even pick them - in DC west of the park, in North Arlington, and in Falls Church, most notably.

More people would pick them if they were not as expenive as they are. They would be less expensive if there were fewer constraints on constructing them. Given that that would expand the range of choices to people, and ALSO benefit society, we should, as far as possible, relax those constraints.

I am not sure what problem you have with the above. You can go on with abstract discussions of human nature, or granular discussions of migration patterns from NYC, but they do not change what I have said above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[ For this reason people love walkable suburbs with smaller lots, rowhouse communities and large luxury apartments. The reason people live in crowded circumstances is usually lack of other choices or other choices being even worse economically or safety wise.

So instead of building high rises, you want to tear down neighborhoods of detached SFHs and build townhomes. Great idea, good luck with that! Youn realize that in most of the suburban neighborhoods in greater DC that is not legal (I mean even if you own the land)? You cannot build THs in an area zoned for detached SFHs. And good luck getting a waiver, when the NIMBYs come out in force.

[Anonymous]

The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why people think that apartments, let alone families in apartments, are only a thing in New York City and nowhere else in the world.

If you look at the world at large, apartment living is more prevalent in dense cities where employment is city-centric and there aren't many residential areas where one can have a private home without having to go far out. Is this not true?

There are tons of people living in low rise and rural circumstances all over the world. You make it sound like most people prefer to live in 30-story towers and it's all by choice and that's how most of the world lives. Heavily populated cities provide fewer options for private home ownership, that's all there is, so if you must live there, your choice is apartment living. Given choices like most American cities offer due to lower density, not every family would choose apartment living.

In general people do not like to be severely crowded, it causes stress. Ideal living is when you are still in close enough proximity to others to enable advantages of living within a community but not too close that you feel squeezed and have zero privacy. For this reason people love walkable suburbs with smaller lots, rowhouse communities and large luxury apartments. The reason people live in crowded circumstances is usually lack of other choices or other choices being even worse economically or safety wise.

Agree that the streetcar suburbs are great, but you're not allowed to build anything like that anymore. I enthusiastically support rezoning single-family-detached-only neighborhoods within walking distance of transit to allow denser housing (attached houses, duplexes-triplexes, small apartment buildings, etc.), local commercial uses, and high-quality, frequent transit in dedicated lanes on the major streets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why people think that apartments, let alone families in apartments, are only a thing in New York City and nowhere else in the world.

If you look at the world at large, apartment living is more prevalent in dense cities where employment is city-centric and there aren't many residential areas where one can have a private home without having to go far out. Is this not true?

There are tons of people living in low rise and rural circumstances all over the world. You make it sound like most people prefer to live in 30-story towers and it's all by choice and that's how most of the world lives. Heavily populated cities provide fewer options for private home ownership, that's all there is, so if you must live there, your choice is apartment living. Given choices like most American cities offer due to lower density, not every family would choose apartment living.

In general people do not like to be severely crowded, it causes stress. Ideal living is when you are still in close enough proximity to others to enable advantages of living within a community but not too close that you feel squeezed and have zero privacy. For this reason people love walkable suburbs with smaller lots, rowhouse communities and large luxury apartments. The reason people live in crowded circumstances is usually lack of other choices or other choices being even worse economically or safety wise.

Agree that the streetcar suburbs are great, but you're not allowed to build anything like that anymore. I enthusiastically support rezoning single-family-detached-only neighborhoods within walking distance of transit to allow denser housing (attached houses, duplexes-triplexes, small apartment buildings, etc.), local commercial uses, and high-quality, frequent transit in dedicated lanes on the major streets.

Those are popping up everywhere near the Metro stations...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live there and raise a family there in an apartment, and I had wasted enough time explaining what it's like and why and why not.

Have you considered posting on a NYC message board, and not a DC area one?

Really, there are NYC forums? I had no clue, thank you!

I think you should go to NYC message boards yourself and learn from people there what it's like to raise a family in a very dense/crowded/expensive city. You think you know it all because you live in a suburban apartment complex? Do you even have kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why people think that apartments, let alone families in apartments, are only a thing in New York City and nowhere else in the world.

If you look at the world at large, apartment living is more prevalent in dense cities where employment is city-centric and there aren't many residential areas where one can have a private home without having to go far out. Is this not true?

There are tons of people living in low rise and rural circumstances all over the world. You make it sound like most people prefer to live in 30-story towers and it's all by choice and that's how most of the world lives. Heavily populated cities provide fewer options for private home ownership, that's all there is, so if you must live there, your choice is apartment living. Given choices like most American cities offer due to lower density, not every family would choose apartment living.

In general people do not like to be severely crowded, it causes stress. Ideal living is when you are still in close enough proximity to others to enable advantages of living within a community but not too close that you feel squeezed and have zero privacy. For this reason people love walkable suburbs with smaller lots, rowhouse communities and large luxury apartments. The reason people live in crowded circumstances is usually lack of other choices or other choices being even worse economically or safety wise.

Agree that the streetcar suburbs are great, but you're not allowed to build anything like that anymore. I enthusiastically support rezoning single-family-detached-only neighborhoods within walking distance of transit to allow denser housing (attached houses, duplexes-triplexes, small apartment buildings, etc.), local commercial uses, and high-quality, frequent transit in dedicated lanes on the major streets.

Those are popping up everywhere near the Metro stations...

Kinda. But not really. For one thing, there are the parking requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Those are popping up everywhere near the Metro stations...

Only a few - because you can't tear down SFHs (only place around here that happened was metrowest, where a whole HOA sold out and the adjoining older developments were not SFHs). Mostly that happens where there is an old commercial or industrial property near a metro, or an old low rise apt complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live there and raise a family there in an apartment, and I had wasted enough time explaining what it's like and why and why not.

Have you considered posting on a NYC message board, and not a DC area one?

Really, there are NYC forums? I had no clue, thank you!

I think you should go to NYC message boards yourself and learn from people there what it's like to raise a family in a very dense/crowded/expensive city. You think you know it all because you live in a suburban apartment complex? Do you even have kids?

1. I have said as much as I care to about my family.

2. Limiting construction in DC does not make it less expensive. It makes it MORE expensive.

3. I am interested in the policy choices we make in greater DC. Since you live in NYC, why do you care what we do here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

Er the PP (from NYC) said 6 story condos are great, its 30 story ones that are terrible.

But it doesnt sound like she, or you, are really interested in questions facing citizens in greater DC. Just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I can't find an actual policy recommendation in all the verbiage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

You are talking about high rise high density family living, what other city do you know in the US that provides this example? Also, I am not the one to bring up NYC first on this thread, but at least I have direct experience with it. If you feel like it truly takes away from the discussion, I will stop. I've wasted enough time already.

You are also saying DC is not crowded and is pretty small and will never be like NYC, someone here claims that we have severe shortage of housing. I grew up in DC and have enough family/friends here, I am familiar with it to some extent, even without direct experience of raising kids here. I don't sense that there is such housing crisis here at all, what I sense is frustration of people who want nicer neighborhoods and more luxurious accommodations at inability to afford it, not the fact that they cannot find a place to live. These are apples and oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

You are talking about high rise high density family living, what other city do you know in the US that provides this example? Also, I am not the one to bring up NYC first on this thread, but at least I have direct experience with it. If you feel like it truly takes away from the discussion, I will stop. I've wasted enough time already.

You are also saying DC is not crowded and is pretty small and will never be like NYC, someone here claims that we have severe shortage of housing. I grew up in DC and have enough family/friends here, I am familiar with it to some extent, even without direct experience of raising kids here. I don't sense that there is such housing crisis here at all, what I sense is frustration of people who want nicer neighborhoods and more luxurious accommodations at inability to afford it, not the fact that they cannot find a place to live. These are apples and oranges.

PP, please recognize that "I don't sense that...", based on your personal experiences, really does not count as data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

You are talking about high rise high density family living, what other city do you know in the US that provides this example? Also, I am not the one to bring up NYC first on this thread, but at least I have direct experience with it. If you feel like it truly takes away from the discussion, I will stop. I've wasted enough time already.

You are also saying DC is not crowded and is pretty small and will never be like NYC, someone here claims that we have severe shortage of housing. I grew up in DC and have enough family/friends here, I am familiar with it to some extent, even without direct experience of raising kids here. I don't sense that there is such housing crisis here at all, what I sense is frustration of people who want nicer neighborhoods and more luxurious accommodations at inability to afford it, not the fact that they cannot find a place to live. These are apples and oranges.

PP, please recognize that "I don't sense that...", based on your personal experiences, really does not count as data.

And your personal experience of living in an apt in NOVA counts as data? We are supposed to believe you what it's like to raise family in a high density high rise city?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

You are talking about high rise high density family living, what other city do you know in the US that provides this example? Also, I am not the one to bring up NYC first on this thread, but at least I have direct experience with it. If you feel like it truly takes away from the discussion, I will stop. I've wasted enough time already.

You are also saying DC is not crowded and is pretty small and will never be like NYC, someone here claims that we have severe shortage of housing. I grew up in DC and have enough family/friends here, I am familiar with it to some extent, even without direct experience of raising kids here. I don't sense that there is such housing crisis here at all, what I sense is frustration of people who want nicer neighborhoods and more luxurious accommodations at inability to afford it, not the fact that they cannot find a place to live. These are apples and oranges.

I have lots of family/friends in DC and grew up here. My LMC/MC family lives in places like Kensington, Silver Spring, South Arlington, Springfield and Ashburn. My higher earning friends live in NWDC, Bethesda, Mclean, Great Falls. The only ones who live in apartments are my childless friends (Downtown and NOVA) and the only person raising a child in the apartment is my single mom LMC cousin who lives in an apartment in Mclean for schools. I also have family members in rent control apartments as they had been here for decades. I have more than enough data to have an idea that the anguish you are writing about is not about lack of housing options for people of all income levels, but lack of certain comforts that tend to cost more money.

PP, please recognize that "I don't sense that...", based on your personal experiences, really does not count as data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYC vs DC apartment argument makes little sense. DC is 1/3 of the size of NYC. On top of that, NYC don't have height restrictions that DC has.

All DC gets are those cheaply constructed boxy condos that only go up 6 stories that cost $3k a month.

I agree with the other poster pressed on NYC. Go post on a NYC forum, but DC will never be that big.

You are talking about high rise high density family living, what other city do you know in the US that provides this example? Also, I am not the one to bring up NYC first on this thread, but at least I have direct experience with it. If you feel like it truly takes away from the discussion, I will stop. I've wasted enough time already.

You are also saying DC is not crowded and is pretty small and will never be like NYC, someone here claims that we have severe shortage of housing. I grew up in DC and have enough family/friends here, I am familiar with it to some extent, even without direct experience of raising kids here. I don't sense that there is such housing crisis here at all, what I sense is frustration of people who want nicer neighborhoods and more luxurious accommodations at inability to afford it, not the fact that they cannot find a place to live. These are apples and oranges.

PP, please recognize that "I don't sense that...", based on your personal experiences, really does not count as data.

And your personal experience of living in an apt in NOVA counts as data? We are supposed to believe you what it's like to raise family in a high density high rise city?

You're responding to multiple posters.