A reality check on "strong extracurriculars"

[Anonymous]

Does academic decathlon move the needle at all? My kid was asked to join it for next year (he is a rising junior) but I worry it will be a lot of work

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does academic decathlon move the needle at all? My kid was asked to join it for next year (he is a rising junior) but I worry it will be a lot of work

He should do it because he wants to. If he has other stuff he wants to focus on, then he should pass it up.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What is elite level athlete? You are either recruitable, or not recruitable.

You can be recruitable but choosing not to play. If a girl was a starter on a nationally ranked team but chose not to play they still have a fantastic EC. If they were a captain on the team even better. They were elite at their main EC which is the bar.

Definitely not true and I say this as a parent of varsity atheletes. If your kid is not an athletic recruit, sports are among the useless ecs. May get some leadership points if kid is a varsity captain, but others pretty useless as far as admission as impact.

My son was a varsity captain of his basketball team but not a recruited athlete but 3 kids on his team were high D1 recruited. The varsity captain helped college admissions tremendously in addition to his strong academics.

Source for this? Where is he going? Captains of teams are ok but generally meaningless. There are many of them at every school...

lol ok whatever you say.

Not whatever I say...how many captains of sports teams are at your school alone? No multiply that out by the schools in your county, state, and the country. This is a massive number of kids. At our HS, a single team might have 5-7 senior captains PER SPORT. It is not like the captains do anything truly impactful. Maybe some team bonding, working on stuff for the end banquet, leading cheers, etc. That's about the extent of it.

But how many varsity captains have an UW 4.0 and a 1500+ SAT?

Around here most kids that are selected as captains also have strong grades/academics. The same discipline and leadership qualities help with sports and schoolwork. The natural athlete who doesn't work hard in school is rarely a captain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Strong ECs means:
1. school president
2. first chair in audition orchestra/band
3. elite-level athlete
4. multi-year (3+) community service commitment at the same organization
5. multiple awards won at top tournaments/conferences: speech and debater/Model UNer
6. steady job of any kind (McDonald's and the like=bonus)

Strong ECs does NOT mean:
1. president of many clubs
2. started a non-profit
3. did research with a professor
4. participated in any or all of the "strong ECs" above but not with demonstrated commitment (i.e. many years) and/or significant recognition (i.e. varsity athlete but not top individual stats, on student council but not president)

This list is not comprehensive but there is a great deal of misinformation here about what "strong ECs" means.

HYP interviewer here. I have no special insight into the inner workings of the admissions office, but I do see who gets in and who doesn't. From what I have seen (from the few that got in vs. the dozens who didn't) "strong ECs" would include two classes: 1) being a recruited athlete or 2) truly national recognition, like some of the free math camps or the (probably now defunct) State Department study abroad programs. That's not an exhaustive list, just what I've seen. I have seen multiple kids with your "strong ECs" be denied or wait-listed.

5 and 3 on your list are the only ones that make sense to me.

Also, McDonald's? Wtf are you thinking?

I am an employer at an elite law firm, so I have to clean up the messes that you and others make in the undergraduate screening process on the back end, and this is exactly what I am talking about - people who have worked minimum wage service jobs early in their lives and who later obtain superior academic success are often the best-positioned people to excel in competitive job environments. So if colleges have not been taking that seriously -- or not viewing that as superior to the resume-puffing extracurrics that are generally of no consequence -- it explains a lot of the garbage we're seeing out of elite universities when they come to or through law and business schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Strong ECs means:
1. school president
2. first chair in audition orchestra/band
3. elite-level athlete
4. multi-year (3+) community service commitment at the same organization
5. multiple awards won at top tournaments/conferences: speech and debater/Model UNer
6. steady job of any kind (McDonald's and the like=bonus)

Strong ECs does NOT mean:
1. president of many clubs
2. started a non-profit
3. did research with a professor
4. participated in any or all of the "strong ECs" above but not with demonstrated commitment (i.e. many years) and/or significant recognition (i.e. varsity athlete but not top individual stats, on student council but not president)

This list is not comprehensive but there is a great deal of misinformation here about what "strong ECs" means.

HYP interviewer here. I have no special insight into the inner workings of the admissions office, but I do see who gets in and who doesn't. From what I have seen (from the few that got in vs. the dozens who didn't) "strong ECs" would include two classes: 1) being a recruited athlete or 2) truly national recognition, like some of the free math camps or the (probably now defunct) State Department study abroad programs. That's not an exhaustive list, just what I've seen. I have seen multiple kids with your "strong ECs" be denied or wait-listed.

5 and 3 on your list are the only ones that make sense to me.

Also, McDonald's? Wtf are you thinking?

I am an employer at an elite law firm, so I have to clean up the messes that you and others make in the undergraduate screening process on the back end, and this is exactly what I am talking about - people who have worked minimum wage service jobs early in their lives and who later obtain superior academic success are often the best-positioned people to excel in competitive job environments. So if colleges have not been taking that seriously -- or not viewing that as superior to the resume-puffing extracurrics that are generally of no consequence -- it explains a lot of the garbage we're seeing out of elite universities when they come to or through law and business schools.

I'm not disagreeing with you on first principles, I'm saying that I, in a decade of interviewing, have never once seen a McDonald's job translate into admission, so I would question whether it counts as a strong extracurricular as most people use that term.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:
I think people are confusing what makes someone a 2. My kid was likely in this category for a different Ivy where the coach said they would put a little asterisk next to their name, pass that on to admissions and my kid was a strong walk-on candidate, but they were not an official recruit.

However, my kid was known to the coach and admissions would also know that.

I doubt anyone is ranked a 2 just because they list captain of a strong sports team on their application. It still falls into the "recruited athlete" bucket, and it's better than nothing.

You're talking about " soft support" or "preferred walking status," right? How much does it help really? My DC is not formally recruited but the coach said he would add his soft support tag to the application. No guarantee, he reiterated.

I'm wondering whether it would be just a tie breaker or something that may pull DC over the line if competitive.

It might break a tie…and it’s possible in a remote chance that one of the actual recruits at say Harvard ends up going elsewhere since there is no ED keeping them and maybe you were the #1 walk on.

Main point is kids getting a 2 are still recruited. These aren’t just random applicants who were the captain of a competitive team because sometimes those kids aren’t even starters but they are great motivators and leaders. There is no way to know how strong a player a random captain may be to get a 2.

By definition, a 2 is not being recruited. Look at the criteria again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:What is elite level athlete? You are either recruitable, or not recruitable.

You can be recruitable but choosing not to play. If a girl was a starter on a nationally ranked team but chose not to play they still have a fantastic EC. If they were a captain on the team even better. They were elite at their main EC which is the bar.

Definitely not true and I say this as a parent of varsity atheletes. If your kid is not an athletic recruit, sports are among the useless ecs. May get some leadership points if kid is a varsity captain, but others pretty useless as far as admission as impact.

My son was a varsity captain of his basketball team but not a recruited athlete but 3 kids on his team were high D1 recruited. The varsity captain helped college admissions tremendously in addition to his strong academics.

Source for this? Where is he going? Captains of teams are ok but generally meaningless. There are many of them at every school...

lol ok whatever you say.

Not whatever I say...how many captains of sports teams are at your school alone? No multiply that out by the schools in your county, state, and the country. This is a massive number of kids. At our HS, a single team might have 5-7 senior captains PER SPORT. It is not like the captains do anything truly impactful. Maybe some team bonding, working on stuff for the end banquet, leading cheers, etc. That's about the extent of it.

But how many varsity captains have an UW 4.0 and a 1500+ SAT?

At our private, where a third of the kids have SATs over 1500, a good amount just at our school. And we play nearly all sports in the very competitive MIAA-A conference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is elite level athlete? You are either recruitable, or not recruitable.

You can be recruitable but choosing not to play. If a girl was a starter on a nationally ranked team but chose not to play they still have a fantastic EC. If they were a captain on the team even better. They were elite at their main EC which is the bar.

Definitely not true and I say this as a parent of varsity atheletes. If your kid is not an athletic recruit, sports are among the useless ecs. May get some leadership points if kid is a varsity captain, but others pretty useless as far as admission as impact.

My son was a varsity captain of his basketball team but not a recruited athlete but 3 kids on his team were high D1 recruited. The varsity captain helped college admissions tremendously in addition to his strong academics.

Source for this? Where is he going? Captains of teams are ok but generally meaningless. There are many of them at every school...

lol ok whatever you say.

Not whatever I say...how many captains of sports teams are at your school alone? No multiply that out by the schools in your county, state, and the country. This is a massive number of kids. At our HS, a single team might have 5-7 senior captains PER SPORT. It is not like the captains do anything truly impactful. Maybe some team bonding, working on stuff for the end banquet, leading cheers, etc. That's about the extent of it.

But how many varsity captains have an UW 4.0 and a 1500+ SAT?

At our private, where a third of the kids have SATs over 1500, a good amount just at our school. And we play nearly all sports in the very competitive MIAA-A conference.

Local conferences are mostly meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is elite level athlete? You are either recruitable, or not recruitable.

You can be recruitable but choosing not to play. If a girl was a starter on a nationally ranked team but chose not to play they still have a fantastic EC. If they were a captain on the team even better. They were elite at their main EC which is the bar.

Definitely not true and I say this as a parent of varsity atheletes. If your kid is not an athletic recruit, sports are among the useless ecs. May get some leadership points if kid is a varsity captain, but others pretty useless as far as admission as impact.

My son was a varsity captain of his basketball team but not a recruited athlete but 3 kids on his team were high D1 recruited. The varsity captain helped college admissions tremendously in addition to his strong academics.

Source for this? Where is he going? Captains of teams are ok but generally meaningless. There are many of them at every school...

lol ok whatever you say.

Not whatever I say...how many captains of sports teams are at your school alone? No multiply that out by the schools in your county, state, and the country. This is a massive number of kids. At our HS, a single team might have 5-7 senior captains PER SPORT. It is not like the captains do anything truly impactful. Maybe some team bonding, working on stuff for the end banquet, leading cheers, etc. That's about the extent of it.

But how many varsity captains have an UW 4.0 and a 1500+ SAT?

At our private, where a third of the kids have SATs over 1500, a good amount just at our school. And we play nearly all sports in the very competitive MIAA-A conference.

Local conferences are mostly meaningless.

This conference has multiple nationally ranked teams in a number of sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:School president does not help much at our school.

None of them do.
When I was in high school, the job was to raise as much money as possible so the prom tickets could be cheaper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is elite level athlete? You are either recruitable, or not recruitable.

You can be recruitable but choosing not to play. If a girl was a starter on a nationally ranked team but chose not to play they still have a fantastic EC. If they were a captain on the team even better. They were elite at their main EC which is the bar.

Definitely not true and I say this as a parent of varsity atheletes. If your kid is not an athletic recruit, sports are among the useless ecs. May get some leadership points if kid is a varsity captain, but others pretty useless as far as admission as impact.

My son was a varsity captain of his basketball team but not a recruited athlete but 3 kids on his team were high D1 recruited. The varsity captain helped college admissions tremendously in addition to his strong academics.

Source for this? Where is he going? Captains of teams are ok but generally meaningless. There are many of them at every school...

lol ok whatever you say.

Not whatever I say...how many captains of sports teams are at your school alone? No multiply that out by the schools in your county, state, and the country. This is a massive number of kids. At our HS, a single team might have 5-7 senior captains PER SPORT. It is not like the captains do anything truly impactful. Maybe some team bonding, working on stuff for the end banquet, leading cheers, etc. That's about the extent of it.

But how many varsity captains have an UW 4.0 and a 1500+ SAT?

At our private, where a third of the kids have SATs over 1500, a good amount just at our school. And we play nearly all sports in the very competitive MIAA-A conference.

Local conferences are mostly meaningless.

This conference has multiple nationally ranked teams in a number of sports.

Are there multiple teams from the conference simultaneously ranked in a particular sport at the same time? Probably not. It happens in a few sports in a few places but it's typically rare and why conferences generally don't matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think people are confusing what makes someone a 2. My kid was likely in this category for a different Ivy where the coach said they would put a little asterisk next to their name, pass that on to admissions and my kid was a strong walk-on candidate, but they were not an official recruit.

However, my kid was known to the coach and admissions would also know that.

I doubt anyone is ranked a 2 just because they list captain of a strong sports team on their application. It still falls into the "recruited athlete" bucket, and it's better than nothing.

You're talking about " soft support" or "preferred walking status," right? How much does it help really? My DC is not formally recruited but the coach said he would add his soft support tag to the application. No guarantee, he reiterated.

I'm wondering whether it would be just a tie breaker or something that may pull DC over the line if competitive.

It might break a tie…and it’s possible in a remote chance that one of the actual recruits at say Harvard ends up going elsewhere since there is no ED keeping them and maybe you were the #1 walk on.

Main point is kids getting a 2 are still recruited. These aren’t just random applicants who were the captain of a competitive team because sometimes those kids aren’t even starters but they are great motivators and leaders. There is no way to know how strong a player a random captain may be to get a 2.

By definition, a 2 is not being recruited. Look at the criteria again.

There is zero way to say a kid is a possible walk on unless the coach has seen them, interacted with them and makes that distinction.

They aren’t recruited in the sense that they are a lock, but they aren’t a random applicant either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think people are confusing what makes someone a 2. My kid was likely in this category for a different Ivy where the coach said they would put a little asterisk next to their name, pass that on to admissions and my kid was a strong walk-on candidate, but they were not an official recruit.

However, my kid was known to the coach and admissions would also know that.

I doubt anyone is ranked a 2 just because they list captain of a strong sports team on their application. It still falls into the "recruited athlete" bucket, and it's better than nothing.

You're talking about " soft support" or "preferred walking status," right? How much does it help really? My DC is not formally recruited but the coach said he would add his soft support tag to the application. No guarantee, he reiterated.

I'm wondering whether it would be just a tie breaker or something that may pull DC over the line if competitive.

It might break a tie…and it’s possible in a remote chance that one of the actual recruits at say Harvard ends up going elsewhere since there is no ED keeping them and maybe you were the #1 walk on.

Main point is kids getting a 2 are still recruited. These aren’t just random applicants who were the captain of a competitive team because sometimes those kids aren’t even starters but they are great motivators and leaders. There is no way to know how strong a player a random captain may be to get a 2.

By definition, a 2 is not being recruited. Look at the criteria again.

There is zero way to say a kid is a possible walk on unless the coach has seen them, interacted with them and makes that distinction.

They aren’t recruited in the sense that they are a lock, but they aren’t a random applicant either.

Yes, DC is going through this in a niche sport. In contact with coaches. Probably won't get the slot at top schools but could qualify as a walk on, maybe. It's a whole process that begins junior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is elite level athlete? You are either recruitable, or not recruitable.

You can be recruitable but choosing not to play. If a girl was a starter on a nationally ranked team but chose not to play they still have a fantastic EC. If they were a captain on the team even better. They were elite at their main EC which is the bar.

Definitely not true and I say this as a parent of varsity atheletes. If your kid is not an athletic recruit, sports are among the useless ecs. May get some leadership points if kid is a varsity captain, but others pretty useless as far as admission as impact.

My son was a varsity captain of his basketball team but not a recruited athlete but 3 kids on his team were high D1 recruited. The varsity captain helped college admissions tremendously in addition to his strong academics.

Source for this? Where is he going? Captains of teams are ok but generally meaningless. There are many of them at every school...

Accepted to a Top 10 and Top 20.

Not because he was captain of a team.

I know a kid just like this who was captain of the team, graduated in top 10 of his class, and had very high SAT. It was a total package not just one thing. Certainly the sports helped round out that package.

Even you agree being CAPTAIN was irrelevant. Being an unrecruited athlete with a bunch of other excellent stuff, sure, that could help round out a kid.

Well it certainly didn't hurt. Not sure what your point is but you clearly just don't seem to like or value sports but that's neither here nor there since you're not a decision maker.

The point of this isn't to shit on sports. My kid spent a lot of time on sports. He played club and was 4 year varsity starter and captain for 2 years but he wasn't good enough to be recruited at his position at a school he would want to go to. In fact we knew he would never be recruited because his height made that almost an impossibility. But he still did it and we supported it despite the FACT that it would not really help his college application because there are other reasons to do things other than college admissions. he was learning life lessons and developing character. Also, I don't think he would spend the time more productively if he didn't have the sport, it was a large part of his identity and the grit he learned got him through a lot of adversity.

I think sports are absolutely worth doing but it will not help with your college applications unless you are recruitable.

All of this was confirmed by the SFFA trial discovery. Harvard gives athletic scores almost no consideration if you are not recruitable. All the Ivy+ do the same

This is incorrect.

It is absolutely correct.

Read exhibit 1 of the SFFA lawsuit. Report by Arcidiacono.

See section 2.4 (factors correlated with admission) page 24 and footnote 23 where the expert notes:

The relationship between the athletic rating and admissions is weak once athletes are
removed. Athletes receive a 1 on the athletic rating and, as shown in Section 2.2.3, have
very high admit rates. However, once athletes are taken out, the relationship between the
athletic rating and admissions is weak.

This seems to put this issue to rest. Believe what you want but this is the reality. At least it was with Harvard over a period of several years.

Sports is just another extra curricular, one that takes a lot of time and effort and doesn't really buttress academic credentials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does academic decathlon move the needle at all? My kid was asked to join it for next year (he is a rising junior) but I worry it will be a lot of work

Can they win in their state? Which state?