Tulane bans HS from ED for 1 year after student backs out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Abolish ED, limit everyone to 10 applications, limit SAT/ACT sittings to 2, get rid of the “commitment” system for Division III athletics, and maybe that can go some ways in making the process the way it was circa 1990- not perfect but much more transparent (even without internet!) and less stressful.

Nope!! ED is a good thing, and helps ensure schools fill their freshman class exactly (not over, not under---both are bad for the school for the next 4 years)
If you don't like ED, don't do it. Just like you don't buy a BMW if you can only afford a KIA. It's a choice

It’s amazing how much all of you get off on thinking the people objecting aren’t as wealthy as you. You are showing your true and nasty colors.

Maybe you should actually read and grasp the posts?

The NPC tells you how much aid you can expect. That number does not change, regardless of whether a kid applies ED or RD. My DC applied ED and received financial aid, the same amount he would have received had he applied RD. The school was his first choice, so he applied. Why is that difficult to understand, or unfair? We ruled out ED schools that indicated we would receive no aid. You are free to do the same.

+1 I'm not sure why there is such a poor understanding of how financial aid works. You qualify for the same need-based aid regardless of when you apply. The NPC gives you the number. ED or not, the number does not change.

I am doubtful that your financial skills are as sharp as you think since your reading skills are so poor. Who do you think you are arguing with and what are they saying? The only people talking about financials affecting decision in this rolled up responses are the people patting themselves on the back.

Not really! Those who do not like ED or think it's unfair are typically in one category: Those who want to search for merit but also don't want to miss out on the slight advantage ED might provide.

it is perfectly fine to need to/want to compare merit offers from schools. But you have to be informed about how it works and understand that most T25 schools do NOT offer merit (sure Duke has 10-15 merit scholarships, but that's it for 2K freshman, so in reality, they do not really offer merit). So if the NPC says you owe Full pay that is what you owe. It's the same for ED as well as RD/EA.
So what those people really want is to see if the "next tier" of schools offers their kid good merit, and if it's a "good enough school with good enough merit to make it worthwhile attending" otherwise they are willing to find a way to be Full pay at the T25 that their kid really wants to attend.

Except that is not how ED works. If you want to compare offers then you have EA/RD as an option.

So yes, the only reason someone thinks ED is "unfair" is because of financials. But that is a "you choice". Everyone has the choice to accept the NPC for any school and apply ED (if it's an option). It helps both students and the schools.

Maybe you need to step back here. Colleges (nearly all of them) have non-profit status. This means that they are providing a service to society that justifies not taxing them.
In return, their practices have to be aligned with the goal our society is setting for itself.

A key goal is equality (that's equality before some people renamed it "equity"). It means equal chances for everyone. Creating a separate pool of applicants in ED, only to ensure the university has a leg up in the race to fill their seats, is a blatant violation of equality, and it is not only unethical, but it should be illegal, plain and simple.

If universities wish to engage in private contracts like ED demands, they should (a) write legal contracts with civil penalties and (b) abandon their non-profit status.

Otherwise, they are expected to abide by societal norms.

For the final time, everyone can do ED. It's open to everyone. It's a choice you make to NOT do ED.

That's utterly irrelevant.

Everyone can use the lightning lanes at Disney, too. But we don't give Disney tax exempt status because we recognize that, actually, not everyone can use that lane. Only those able and willing to pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tulane getting huffy and punishing so many other students from this high school is childish and unethical.

Not that Tulane interests me, but now we have one less reason to consider it.

Tulane didn't do this to the junior class, the high school counselor did. The Junior class should demand that person be fired and that the school withhold the offending students' transcripts. Then maybe Tulane will be able to trust the school, take the school and its students at their word, and change course. No college wants to admit unethical people and if you are coming from an unethical high school, its a huge red flag.

I'm not sure why people are blaming Tulane for enforcing its rules. At least they're being transparent about it. What's the point of binding ED if the students are just going to take the advantage of being admitted ED while also going to the best school/taking the best offer they get (the reason most kids don't apply ED in the first place).

[Anonymous]

I am fine with Tulane doing this. Seriously, all the kid had to do was make up some reason and send it via email. I wish there is a way for the kid to be punished too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tulane getting huffy and punishing so many other students from this high school is childish and unethical.

Not that Tulane interests me, but now we have one less reason to consider it.

Tulane didn't do this to the junior class, the high school counselor did. The Junior class should demand that person be fired and that the school withhold the offending students' transcripts. Then maybe Tulane will be able to trust the school, take the school and its students at their word, and change course. No college wants to admit unethical people and if you are coming from an unethical high school, its a huge red flag.

Oh Lord. No one including you knows exactly what happened. What if the kid's financial situation changed and could no longer afford the tuition? What if the kid is sick or got injured and needs to take a gap year; or whatever reasonable reason that we don't know about? At the end of the day, it was Tulane who decided to punish an entire class of innocent kids and families which is practically extortion. Stop blaming the HS counselor for that.

But that's why so many people don't apply ED. You don't apply ED unless you're sure you can afford the college, or are willing to accept whatever financial aid package this single college comes up with. And even if your financial circumstances change, you are allowed to submit the evidence of the changed circumstances to the college and the college can adjust its aid offer. It seems more like one kid flaked, the private school didn't do a good job of justifying it, and his/her fellow students will pay the consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Abolish ED, limit everyone to 10 applications, limit SAT/ACT sittings to 2, get rid of the “commitment” system for Division III athletics, and maybe that can go some ways in making the process the way it was circa 1990- not perfect but much more transparent (even without internet!) and less stressful.

Nope!! ED is a good thing, and helps ensure schools fill their freshman class exactly (not over, not under---both are bad for the school for the next 4 years)
If you don't like ED, don't do it. Just like you don't buy a BMW if you can only afford a KIA. It's a choice

It’s amazing how much all of you get off on thinking the people objecting aren’t as wealthy as you. You are showing your true and nasty colors.

Maybe you should actually read and grasp the posts?

The NPC tells you how much aid you can expect. That number does not change, regardless of whether a kid applies ED or RD. My DC applied ED and received financial aid, the same amount he would have received had he applied RD. The school was his first choice, so he applied. Why is that difficult to understand, or unfair? We ruled out ED schools that indicated we would receive no aid. You are free to do the same.

+1 I'm not sure why there is such a poor understanding of how financial aid works. You qualify for the same need-based aid regardless of when you apply. The NPC gives you the number. ED or not, the number does not change.

I am doubtful that your financial skills are as sharp as you think since your reading skills are so poor. Who do you think you are arguing with and what are they saying? The only people talking about financials affecting decision in this rolled up responses are the people patting themselves on the back.

Not really! Those who do not like ED or think it's unfair are typically in one category: Those who want to search for merit but also don't want to miss out on the slight advantage ED might provide.

it is perfectly fine to need to/want to compare merit offers from schools. But you have to be informed about how it works and understand that most T25 schools do NOT offer merit (sure Duke has 10-15 merit scholarships, but that's it for 2K freshman, so in reality, they do not really offer merit). So if the NPC says you owe Full pay that is what you owe. It's the same for ED as well as RD/EA.
So what those people really want is to see if the "next tier" of schools offers their kid good merit, and if it's a "good enough school with good enough merit to make it worthwhile attending" otherwise they are willing to find a way to be Full pay at the T25 that their kid really wants to attend.

Except that is not how ED works. If you want to compare offers then you have EA/RD as an option.

So yes, the only reason someone thinks ED is "unfair" is because of financials. But that is a "you choice". Everyone has the choice to accept the NPC for any school and apply ED (if it's an option). It helps both students and the schools.

Maybe you need to step back here. Colleges (nearly all of them) have non-profit status. This means that they are providing a service to society that justifies not taxing them.
In return, their practices have to be aligned with the goal our society is setting for itself.

A key goal is equality (that's equality before some people renamed it "equity"). It means equal chances for everyone. Creating a separate pool of applicants in ED, only to ensure the university has a leg up in the race to fill their seats, is a blatant violation of equality, and it is not only unethical, but it should be illegal, plain and simple.

If universities wish to engage in private contracts like ED demands, they should (a) write legal contracts with civil penalties and (b) abandon their non-profit status.

Otherwise, they are expected to abide by societal norms.

For the final time, everyone can do ED. It's open to everyone. It's a choice you make to NOT do ED.

That's utterly irrelevant.

Everyone can use the lightning lanes at Disney, too. But we don't give Disney tax exempt status because we recognize that, actually, not everyone can use that lane. Only those able and willing to pay for it.

Dumb analogy since NPC can indicate receiving a full ride. The number is the same regardless of when you apply. NPCs can be compared across colleges before making a decision to ED. The financial point is a straw man. You can either afford the NPC figure or you can't. That has exactly zero to do with ED.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tulane getting huffy and punishing so many other students from this high school is childish and unethical.

Not that Tulane interests me, but now we have one less reason to consider it.

No, Tulane is stating that this HS doesn't follow the rules (it's the counselors who allow that to happen), so they won't be considering this school for ED for the future. The entire point of ED is that someone is 100% committed.

The counselor didn't do this, nor did the parents, the student did. I posted this story a few months back but this board denied it happened. Kid kept in applications to the UC's which don't accept/require transcripts for senior year so there was nothing required from the counselor who had no way of knowing that the student hadn't withdrawn applications.

Can you repost your thread/links?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The counselor, student, and parents signed a binding agreement.

And yet, it’s not a binding agreement, as it turns out such an agreement is totally unenforceable, and is in no sense a contract in a legal sense.

And what a “contract” it is, when the penalties for nonperformance are assessed and imposed entirely on non parties to the agreement (other students at the high school who had no involvement in the original agreement).

All of which goes to show that ED is a stupid and corrupt practice which should be ended.

[Anonymous]

I've heard rumors of students keeping in EA applications for Ivies while also applying ED to the Tulanes of the world who fill 50% of their class ED so they get the advantage. If Tulane caught someone breaking their early decision agreement, I'm fine with them taking action transparently and sending a message to those who seek to game the system.

It's too bad they couldn't call the university where the rule breaking student was admitted to tell them the student had already committed to Tulane, but I assume they had a reason for banning Colorado Academy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Abolish ED, limit everyone to 10 applications, limit SAT/ACT sittings to 2, get rid of the “commitment” system for Division III athletics, and maybe that can go some ways in making the process the way it was circa 1990- not perfect but much more transparent (even without internet!) and less stressful.

Nope!! ED is a good thing, and helps ensure schools fill their freshman class exactly (not over, not under---both are bad for the school for the next 4 years)
If you don't like ED, don't do it. Just like you don't buy a BMW if you can only afford a KIA. It's a choice

It’s amazing how much all of you get off on thinking the people objecting aren’t as wealthy as you. You are showing your true and nasty colors.

Maybe you should actually read and grasp the posts?

The NPC tells you how much aid you can expect. That number does not change, regardless of whether a kid applies ED or RD. My DC applied ED and received financial aid, the same amount he would have received had he applied RD. The school was his first choice, so he applied. Why is that difficult to understand, or unfair? We ruled out ED schools that indicated we would receive no aid. You are free to do the same.

+1 I'm not sure why there is such a poor understanding of how financial aid works. You qualify for the same need-based aid regardless of when you apply. The NPC gives you the number. ED or not, the number does not change.

I am doubtful that your financial skills are as sharp as you think since your reading skills are so poor. Who do you think you are arguing with and what are they saying? The only people talking about financials affecting decision in this rolled up responses are the people patting themselves on the back.

Not really! Those who do not like ED or think it's unfair are typically in one category: Those who want to search for merit but also don't want to miss out on the slight advantage ED might provide.

it is perfectly fine to need to/want to compare merit offers from schools. But you have to be informed about how it works and understand that most T25 schools do NOT offer merit (sure Duke has 10-15 merit scholarships, but that's it for 2K freshman, so in reality, they do not really offer merit). So if the NPC says you owe Full pay that is what you owe. It's the same for ED as well as RD/EA.
So what those people really want is to see if the "next tier" of schools offers their kid good merit, and if it's a "good enough school with good enough merit to make it worthwhile attending" otherwise they are willing to find a way to be Full pay at the T25 that their kid really wants to attend.

Except that is not how ED works. If you want to compare offers then you have EA/RD as an option.

So yes, the only reason someone thinks ED is "unfair" is because of financials. But that is a "you choice". Everyone has the choice to accept the NPC for any school and apply ED (if it's an option). It helps both students and the schools.

Maybe you need to step back here. Colleges (nearly all of them) have non-profit status. This means that they are providing a service to society that justifies not taxing them.
In return, their practices have to be aligned with the goal our society is setting for itself.

A key goal is equality (that's equality before some people renamed it "equity"). It means equal chances for everyone. Creating a separate pool of applicants in ED, only to ensure the university has a leg up in the race to fill their seats, is a blatant violation of equality, and it is not only unethical, but it should be illegal, plain and simple.

If universities wish to engage in private contracts like ED demands, they should (a) write legal contracts with civil penalties and (b) abandon their non-profit status.

Otherwise, they are expected to abide by societal norms.

For the final time, everyone can do ED. It's open to everyone. It's a choice you make to NOT do ED.

That's utterly irrelevant.

Everyone can use the lightning lanes at Disney, too. But we don't give Disney tax exempt status because we recognize that, actually, not everyone can use that lane. Only those able and willing to pay for it.

Removing the tax exempt status's still won't get your kid in or allow you to afford it. If anything it will cost way more. $90k will seem like nothing

You are not entitled to admission to a top university and also not entitled for it to be affordable to you unless you save.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've heard rumors of students keeping in EA applications for Ivies while also applying ED to the Tulanes of the world who fill 50% of their class ED so they get the advantage. If Tulane caught someone breaking their early decision agreement, I'm fine with them taking action transparently and sending a message to those who seek to game the system.

It's too bad they couldn't call the university where the rule breaking student was admitted to tell them the student had already committed to Tulane, but I assume they had a reason for banning Colorado Academy.

The bolded doesn't really happen, due to Ivies only having ED or REA/SCEA. It can only go in the other direction (ED or REA/SCEA to an Ivy and then ED 2 or RD to Tulanes of the world if that doesn't work out).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tulane getting huffy and punishing so many other students from this high school is childish and unethical.

Not that Tulane interests me, but now we have one less reason to consider it.

No, Tulane is stating that this HS doesn't follow the rules (it's the counselors who allow that to happen), so they won't be considering this school for ED for the future. The entire point of ED is that someone is 100% committed.

The counselor didn't do this, nor did the parents, the student did. I posted this story a few months back but this board denied it happened. Kid kept in applications to the UC's which don't accept/require transcripts for senior year so there was nothing required from the counselor who had no way of knowing that the student hadn't withdrawn applications.

Can you repost your thread/links?

Here is that post- it was on the thread about the ED antitrust suit

By the way on consequences. I am aware of 1 situation, student ED'd to Tulane but kept in their apps at UCLA and Cal (lied to parents and school counselor that they had withdrawn). Got into UCLA and then disclosed because they wanted to go. Tulane's threat was to blacklist applicants from the high school for some number of years. The kid didn't care about that, the parents were mortified, the high school was pissed.
Maybe the outcome of the suit will be to disclose that the consequences of backing out are minimal?
However, if what the schools do is to notify each other so the offer is withdrawn that seems like collusion. I also think coordinating their net price calculators would be as well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with Tulane doing this. Seriously, all the kid had to do was make up some reason and send it via email. I wish there is a way for the kid to be punished too.

+1 Same here. It's not like this Colorado private school can't have its kids accepted at all. It's just that they can't apply ED. For 1 year. This is hardly a tragedy. The NYT article even talks about how the guidance counselor is advising students to say "I would have applied ED if I could" in their essays. So they don't have the binding constraint of ED but can still claim it's their "first choice."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with Tulane doing this. Seriously, all the kid had to do was make up some reason and send it via email. I wish there is a way for the kid to be punished too.

+1 Same here. It's not like this Colorado private school can't have its kids accepted at all. It's just that they can't apply ED. For 1 year. This is hardly a tragedy. The NYT article even talks about how the guidance counselor is advising students to say "I would have applied ED if I could" in their essays. So they don't have the binding constraint of ED but can still claim it's their "first choice."

Yes, but if you know anything about Tulane admissions, you know that kids rarely get in unless they ED1 or ED2. There are something like 50 or fewer RD admits in a class of about 2000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with Tulane doing this. Seriously, all the kid had to do was make up some reason and send it via email. I wish there is a way for the kid to be punished too.

+1 Same here. It's not like this Colorado private school can't have its kids accepted at all. It's just that they can't apply ED. For 1 year. This is hardly a tragedy. The NYT article even talks about how the guidance counselor is advising students to say "I would have applied ED if I could" in their essays. So they don't have the binding constraint of ED but can still claim it's their "first choice."

Yes, but if you know anything about Tulane admissions, you know that kids rarely get in unless they ED1 or ED2. There are something like 50 or fewer RD admits in a class of about 2000.

In the end I think this will bite Tulane and the other schools like it that are almost exclusively ED admissions. With the demographic decline and reduction in foreign students acceptance rates are going to improve and that improvement means that kids have a better shot at schools they truly prefer and can take their chances in regular decision of with ED at a better school. The quality of those willing to bind to Tulane in ED will decline. I suspect some of the kids at the Colorado school are more focused on the better school that the student got into as opposed to Tulane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with Tulane doing this. Seriously, all the kid had to do was make up some reason and send it via email. I wish there is a way for the kid to be punished too.

+1 Same here. It's not like this Colorado private school can't have its kids accepted at all. It's just that they can't apply ED. For 1 year. This is hardly a tragedy. The NYT article even talks about how the guidance counselor is advising students to say "I would have applied ED if I could" in their essays. So they don't have the binding constraint of ED but can still claim it's their "first choice."

Yes, but if you know anything about Tulane admissions, you know that kids rarely get in unless they ED1 or ED2. There are something like 50 or fewer RD admits in a class of about 2000.

That's not correct. I don't know much about Tulane, but I do have a NYTimes subscription, and the article about this incident says the following. You're misunderstanding because they have early action as well, and the Colorado kids are only banned from ED.

About two-thirds of the more than 1,800 freshmen in the class were admitted through early decision, and only 106 with regular decisions, according to a report by Inside Higher Ed. (Others got in through early action, a preferential way to apply without committing to enrolling.)