Why does Montgomery County Subsidize Taxes for Country Clubs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suggest they take away those tax breaks and give them to Amazon as an incentive to build at White Flint. How much does a bunch of country clubs do for the county? How much would Amazon do for it in comparison?

That is actually a really excellent idea. The White Flint site is already an ecological dead zone. No net environmental loss there. And if the country clubs go under because they can’t afford to pay the legitimate taxes they owe, then the county could just acquire them and manage them as parks and wild spaces.

That would actually be a huge win-win-win.

Here is more stupid thinking. Yes, MoCo should go after Amazon, but MoCo should understand that Amazon will cost MoCo serious money in terms of roads, schools, public safety. Hopefully, those costs would be offset by the increased income tax revenues. Separately, the idea that whatever tax "breaks" golf courses receive is going to Amazon is stupid. Yes, stupid. Not enough money. The reason you provide Amazon tax breaks is that you think that Amazon will bring substantial additional tax revenues, in the form of income, property, sales, etc taxes. So, if you estimate that Amazon will bring $100 in additional tax revenue, you might say, as a state or county, that you will give Amazon a tax break of $20. If your estimate is correct, Maryland/MC wins. AOC is an idiot to say that now we can spend in NYC that $3B that was going to Amazon on other priorities. That $3B, of course, does not exist and will not exist. On golf courses, MC does not have the money to acquire these golf courses and certainly does not have the money to maintain them as public parks. This is very simple. Golf courses reduce the burden on public resources (ie, MC taxpayer dollars) in the form of roads, schools or public safety, and the provide environmental benefits as open spaces. So, yes, the courses could become (theoretically) public parks, but MC has no money to buy the land and no money to maintain more public parks, and private golf courses (unlike public ones) produce some property taxes. So, the targeted private courses reduce the burden on govt resources and provide environmental benefits. In exchange for that reduced burden and environmental benefits, the courses pay a lower tax rate on the land used for the courses (not the land used for buildings which is the full rate). The real question is how the sum of the reduced burden and environmental benefits compares to the tax breaks. I do not know, and neither does anybody on this thread. But I do know that turning the targeted golf courses in commercial buildings or homes would dramatically increase the demand on public resources in parts of MC that are already dealing with congestion.

No one here has advocated turning them into commercial building spaces or residential areas.

The three consistent alternatives seem to be:

1) they pay their fair share of taxes

2) if they continue to receive a huge tax subsidy, then they admit the general public to use the facilities any time they're open.

3) if they're unable to stay in business after paying their taxes or aren't willing to admit the public, then the county can acquire them through eminent domain and run them as public parks.

Private country clubs are a relic of an era that needs to be forgotten. A sanctuary for old rich white guys to gather and plot out the ways they will screw over everyone else, so they can continue to be old, even richer, white guys.

The whole model is gross and offensive.

Country clubs are the equivalent of having a lawn jockey ornament at the end of your driveway. That's what being a member of a country club says about you.

The idea that MC has the money to acquire them in absurd. Why would MC spend hundreds of millions to acquire 4 targeted tracts of land in the inner suburbs? MC is broke, not because of these tax exemptions, but because of its political leadership. Moreover, MC has no resources to maintain them as public parks. Most importantly, these tracts are private property, and MC has no ability to use eminent domain to acquire them. Private property is exactly that, private property. If MC tried to use eminent domain, MC would be sued and would lose. Take note that, along the Texas border, some land owners will likely sue the Feds for trying to use eminent domain to acquire their land for the "national emergency" along the border. Same principle. (3) is not an option. And, whatever your views are about the whole model being gross and offensive is irrelevant. I am confident that I would find some of your lifestyle choices, customs, traditions, practices, etc repugnant. And that is okay. It is a free country. BTW. I am a true liberal Democrat. You clearly are not.

Montgomery County has half a billion dollars sitting in its rainy day fund. I’d hardest call that broke. It has more money socked away for the future than counties and cities in Virginia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meh I'm not a golf fan or have any desire to join a country club but this is good example of why Takoma Park based politicians aren't good for the county. This rep's first try at this included all small clubs which would have made the small, cheapo neighborhood swim and tennis clubs all over the county go under. I guess his thinking was if it doesn't benefit Takoma Park directly then tax it more and send those dollars on over to Takoma Park pronto. He lost so now he's back focusing on only the clubs with larger golf courses.

While I personally don't care if the small number of clubs that David is targeting need to pay more taxes, I do care that MoCo politicians are once again not focusing on getting more business revenue into the county. Its embarrassing how badly MoCo is doing compared to VA,DC, Howard and Frederick! If David one and only plan for more revenue by increasing the taxes succeeds it would only go into place in 2031 and only raise 10M for the county. This will do nothing to steer away from the budget and financial crisis within MoCo.

+1. I’m a DC resident who have previously considered MoCo for a future home. This sort of thinking (let’s tax the H$ll out of private clubs!) is scary and why I don’t think I can consider living in MoCo. The entire state seems to be about driving business away and passing legislation that ultimately hurts the state and future tax dollars. It’s like the lawmakers cant stand prosperity and want everyone on the dole. It isn’t surprising that northern Virginia has experienced more growth.

Signed, a liberal

This is the scourge of socialists like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez and their ilk.

[Anonymous]

Md is in awesome position with the most powerful city in the world embedded in its borders.

Va has to cross a bridge.

Every attraction and entertainment venue is on the north side of the bridge. If Va didn't do something to attract business then it literally would have nothing going for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Meh I'm not a golf fan or have any desire to join a country club but this is good example of why Takoma Park based politicians aren't good for the county. This rep's first try at this included all small clubs which would have made the small, cheapo neighborhood swim and tennis clubs all over the county go under. I guess his thinking was if it doesn't benefit Takoma Park directly then tax it more and send those dollars on over to Takoma Park pronto. He lost so now he's back focusing on only the clubs with larger golf courses.

While I personally don't care if the small number of clubs that David is targeting need to pay more taxes, I do care that MoCo politicians are once again not focusing on getting more business revenue into the county. Its embarrassing how badly MoCo is doing compared to VA,DC, Howard and Frederick! If David one and only plan for more revenue by increasing the taxes succeeds it would only go into place in 2031 and only raise 10M for the county. This will do nothing to steer away from the budget and financial crisis within MoCo.

+1. I’m a DC resident who have previously considered MoCo for a future home. This sort of thinking (let’s tax the H$ll out of private clubs!) is scary and why I don’t think I can consider living in MoCo. The entire state seems to be about driving business away and passing legislation that ultimately hurts the state and future tax dollars. It’s like the lawmakers cant stand prosperity and want everyone on the dole. It isn’t surprising that northern Virginia has experienced more growth.

Signed, a liberal

This is the scourge of socialists like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez and their ilk.

Scourge? Pfffft, go back to your Rotary Club or CoC booster meeting.

AOC is the voice of millions of us who didn’t have a voice, kept silent by people like you.

She’s going to be president in less than a decade. Your time is over.

[Anonymous]

Montgomery County has half a billion dollars sitting in its rainy day fund. I’d hardest call that broke. It has more money socked away for the future than counties and cities in Virginia.

Reading is fundamental
https://aminerdetail.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAGE-Policy-Report-January-2019.pdf
I can have 500M tucked away and owe 500B
Or I can have 20M tucked away and owe 10M
Who is better off?
Amazon was MoCos only way out of a horrible financial mess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Montgomery County has half a billion dollars sitting in its rainy day fund. I’d hardest call that broke. It has more money socked away for the future than counties and cities in Virginia.

Reading is fundamental
https://aminerdetail.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAGE-Policy-Report-January-2019.pdf
I can have 500M tucked away and owe 500B
Or I can have 20M tucked away and owe 10M
Who is better off?
Amazon was MoCos only way out of a horrible financial mess.

The problem is that expectations of standards of living are too high. They need to be brought down. Income redistribution through tax policy is one way of achieving that. MoCo wouldn’t have been better with HQ2, it just would’ve had more money. More money is not the answer, if it means more money for some people only. If I ruled a hypothetical place where I had 100 people, and 12 of them were super wealthy, 13 of them were middle class, and 75 of them were poor, I would seize the wealth of the 25 middle and upper class, and distribute it among the 75 poor, bringing a few people down, and most people up. That’s how you achieve fairness. That’s what equality looks like. We teach children in kindergarten this. It’s not a difficult concept. We need political leadership with the courage to do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Montgomery County has half a billion dollars sitting in its rainy day fund. I’d hardest call that broke. It has more money socked away for the future than counties and cities in Virginia.

Reading is fundamental
https://aminerdetail.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAGE-Policy-Report-January-2019.pdf
I can have 500M tucked away and owe 500B
Or I can have 20M tucked away and owe 10M
Who is better off?
Amazon was MoCos only way out of a horrible financial mess.

The problem is that expectations of standards of living are too high. They need to be brought down. Income redistribution through tax policy is one way of achieving that. MoCo wouldn’t have been better with HQ2, it just would’ve had more money. More money is not the answer, if it means more money for some people only. If I ruled a hypothetical place where I had 100 people, and 12 of them were super wealthy, 13 of them were middle class, and 75 of them were poor, I would seize the wealth of the 25 middle and upper class, and distribute it among the 75 poor, bringing a few people down, and most people up. That’s how you achieve fairness. That’s what equality looks like. We teach children in kindergarten this. It’s not a difficult concept. We need political leadership with the courage to do the same.

This country is not based on the idea of equal outcomes. And neither is fairness about equal outcomes. Sorry. If you are teaching your children that everybody is entitled to the same, you are teaching them to be feel entitled and spoiled. You have to work hard, every day, for what you get. So, you would distribute money from super wealthy and middle class to the poor simply because the poor do not have enough. The right answer is to figure out how we, as a society, can support the poor in their efforts to become better off. The US does not stand for equality of outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Montgomery County has half a billion dollars sitting in its rainy day fund. I’d hardest call that broke. It has more money socked away for the future than counties and cities in Virginia.

Reading is fundamental
https://aminerdetail.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SAGE-Policy-Report-January-2019.pdf
I can have 500M tucked away and owe 500B
Or I can have 20M tucked away and owe 10M
Who is better off?
Amazon was MoCos only way out of a horrible financial mess.

The problem is that expectations of standards of living are too high. They need to be brought down. Income redistribution through tax policy is one way of achieving that. MoCo wouldn’t have been better with HQ2, it just would’ve had more money. More money is not the answer, if it means more money for some people only. If I ruled a hypothetical place where I had 100 people, and 12 of them were super wealthy, 13 of them were middle class, and 75 of them were poor, I would seize the wealth of the 25 middle and upper class, and distribute it among the 75 poor, bringing a few people down, and most people up. That’s how you achieve fairness. That’s what equality looks like. We teach children in kindergarten this. It’s not a difficult concept. We need political leadership with the courage to do the same.

This country is not based on the idea of equal outcomes. And neither is fairness about equal outcomes. Sorry. If you are teaching your children that everybody is entitled to the same, you are teaching them to be feel entitled and spoiled. You have to work hard, every day, for what you get. So, you would distribute money from super wealthy and middle class to the poor simply because the poor do not have enough. The right answer is to figure out how we, as a society, can support the poor in their efforts to become better off. The US does not stand for equality of outcomes.






Absolutely, positively, yes. And if you can’t understand why, then YOU are the problem.

You are a dinosaur, and your way of thinking is anachronistic. Just like country clubs.

[Anonymous]

There is such a shocking disconnect in the optics between people who feel they are Progressive, and claim to be, and still belonging to or defending a country club. It's tone-deaf.

[Anonymous]

Most people don't support subsidizing taxes for country clubs while individuals and other businesses pay higher rates. It's just a few vested interests trying to protect their tax breaks (lobbyists for country clubs.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Md is in awesome position with the most powerful city in the world embedded in its borders.

Va has to cross a bridge.

Every attraction and entertainment venue is on the north side of the bridge. If Va didn't do something to attract business then it literally would have nothing going for it.

At this stage, NoVa is the center of the DMV business community, not DC or MD. Amazon's arrival will increase the differential. Strong business community, good jobs.

[Anonymous]

And northern Virginia doesn’t have a half dozen private country clubs in Arlington county

[Anonymous]

So how much sales tax do these country clubs generate? How much in property tax breaks do they get? Let’s compare the two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So how much sales tax do these country clubs generate? How much in property tax breaks do they get? Let’s compare the two.

what are they selling? Because memberships aren't "for sale" because then literally anyone could buy one, and that's not how membership in a private club works.

So what are they selling?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And northern Virginia doesn’t have a half dozen private country clubs in Arlington county

Too easy. Comparing Arlington to Montgomery is not the fair comparison. Comparing Fairfax to Montgomery is the typical comparison. And Fairfax has multiple private golf courses, as Arlington has. I have no idea which county has more. Not relevant anyhow. The idea that Montgomery has a smaller business community because of golf courses is silly. The idea that Montgomery has the highest tax burden in the region because of golf courses is similarly silly. NoVa has a bigger business community exactly because NoVa understands that more jobs is better for all.