Grey divorces

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

You’re talking to somebody who’s always been taking care of by their husband and expects to be taken care of by their children. They don’t understand what it’s like to be independent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In retirement, make sure each of you can have some of your own space in your home. And give each other the house, alone, some. Neither of you is responsible for finding ways for the other to fill their time. You aren't managing each other and shouldn't be judging how they spend their time. What is usually said about the challenges for couples in retirement is: it's twice the amount of togetherness while living on 1/2 of the money you're use to.

It's not half the money for those of us who planned well.

Planned well how? Short of an enforceable prenup, if your spouse has a lawyer with any experience, they will get half of the marital property, and if they have to hire a forensic accountant to find things you're hiding, you'll get reamed in paying back their out-of-pocket attorney and accountant fees, plus the judge will be angry and biased against you.

Have you been living under a rock? Women who did not quit their careers to care for their kids make as much as their spouses.

This.

Yep, the nurse or teacher makes as much as the legal partner. Oh, wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

You do know that you can pay people to manage your affairs, right?

You know everybody is going to have a spouse die before them and they’re going to be alone.

This is what continuous care facilities are for.

You can set all this up before you have dementia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In retirement, make sure each of you can have some of your own space in your home. And give each other the house, alone, some. Neither of you is responsible for finding ways for the other to fill their time. You aren't managing each other and shouldn't be judging how they spend their time. What is usually said about the challenges for couples in retirement is: it's twice the amount of togetherness while living on 1/2 of the money you're use to.

It's not half the money for those of us who planned well.

Planned well how? Short of an enforceable prenup, if your spouse has a lawyer with any experience, they will get half of the marital property, and if they have to hire a forensic accountant to find things you're hiding, you'll get reamed in paying back their out-of-pocket attorney and accountant fees, plus the judge will be angry and biased against you.

Have you been living under a rock? Women who did not quit their careers to care for their kids make as much as their spouses.

This.

Yep, the nurse or teacher makes as much as the legal partner. Oh, wait.

I guess if your husband’s a nurse or a teacher, he doesn’t make as much as his wife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's common except the stuggle part.

The gray divorces I know (at least the women) are all financially secure and more than happy being single.

I think they ones that would face financial and emotion struggle are just white knuckling it and staying.

I know a few long term SAHMs who chose gray divorce, once their husbands were at retirement. They stayed during the working years, and then become financially sound by taking (rightfully) half of the retirement and savings and having their own life/retirement with more choices.

I'll never understand this tradeoff. Life is so short, I just don't understand being miserable for years and then once you are well into your late 50s suddenly you have all this grandiose plans with all this money. Travel, romance, fun sex etc all of that is more enjoyable when you are younger

Kids. That's it. Some parents choose delayed gratification to raise their kids under one roof and tuck them in every night. But once their off and we feel we've done the lion's share of our job as parents, it's our turn to focus on our happiness again with whatever time we have left.

This is me as well. I have basically hated my wife for 15 years, but sacrificed my happiness for my kids stability. I never cheated and I do regret marrying her, but my commitment is more important than my happiness. 2 more years….

You mean you’re staying for the free high quality child care, cooking, home mgmt, scheduling, health monitoring, cleaning and logistics mgmt your unpaid wife is doing, while also working a full time job or not.

Oh and you also get an ego and image boost because you appear like a functional Family Guy. Not only working all the time but likeable enough to still be married and see your kids anytime when convenient.

So instead of fixing the underlying issues in your marriage and household, you tag along like the selfish leech that you are, doing your own thing but continuing the facade of a married father.

Amazing how off base you can be. This is not something I tell the people in my life. She is the one with the image boost from not having the world know that she would leave the kids home to go cheat during the day. I love my kids more than I value my happiness. Since those times she has become a great mom, but she is a horrible spouse.

You sound like you could benefit from meeting a man in real life as an individual. I am far from perfect, but I do apologize when I am wrong and attempt to make decisions that will not only benefit me. I also don’t run from responsibility. Living with the pain of this marriage is much harder than I ever imagined, because I see the loss of us and the woman I loved every day.

So your wife, a “great mom” now, years before that, left her young kids home alone to supposedly go cheat and have an affair? And you confronted her? Or assumed? Or nothing?

That’s great you love your kids. everyone does, even absentee incarcerated fathers of six. They all say they love their children so, so much.

But talk is cheap. Action is where it’s at. Care is demonstrated love. Not words.

You either really know crappy people or are you dealing with a situation that feels personal to you? It reads like you either disagree with my decisions or hate the idea of a person sacrificing their wants, needs and desires for someone else that they care about.

Yes I confronted and it was confirmed, though not immediately and only partially. I know enough to know the love of my life would never treat me the way my wife did.

I am not out to destroy her, she will get half of everything and find a job prior to our D, but I don’t believe my kids should wonder if they were unworthy because of our poor decisions. I may be handling this wrong, but I won’t find out until later if my commitment to their wellbeing over my happiness pays dividends for them. I hope I am lucky enough to find someone else to create a fulfilling relationship without the burden of betrayal, heartbreak and shame.

We are civil with each other and engaged with the kids, I yearn for the time when the woman who broke me and destroyed our family is significantly less prominent in my life. She would like us to reconcile, but the damage done through HER ACTIONS AND WORDS was not cheap. I paid a high price for her lack of character, commitment and values, including being judged by an anonymous, self-righteous internet troll with no knowledge of my situation.

Hopefully, I will be lucky enough to find a woman to love and respect, who also loves and respects me someday.

You sound like you have a fragile ego and can hold a grudge. I was married to a man like you and it nearly destroyed me. Sure, I could be projecting and your wife is/was truly awful. But your self-righteous resentment is also pretty awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

Nobody wants you to manage their affairs, and if I was your parent, I would not want it either. You sound useless anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

If I had dementia, I would be heading towards Swiss instead of my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's common except the stuggle part.

The gray divorces I know (at least the women) are all financially secure and more than happy being single.

I think they ones that would face financial and emotion struggle are just white knuckling it and staying.

I know a few long term SAHMs who chose gray divorce, once their husbands were at retirement. They stayed during the working years, and then become financially sound by taking (rightfully) half of the retirement and savings and having their own life/retirement with more choices.

I'll never understand this tradeoff. Life is so short, I just don't understand being miserable for years and then once you are well into your late 50s suddenly you have all this grandiose plans with all this money. Travel, romance, fun sex etc all of that is more enjoyable when you are younger

Kids. That's it. Some parents choose delayed gratification to raise their kids under one roof and tuck them in every night. But once their off and we feel we've done the lion's share of our job as parents, it's our turn to focus on our happiness again with whatever time we have left.

This is me as well. I have basically hated my wife for 15 years, but sacrificed my happiness for my kids stability. I never cheated and I do regret marrying her, but my commitment is more important than my happiness. 2 more years….

You mean you’re staying for the free high quality child care, cooking, home mgmt, scheduling, health monitoring, cleaning and logistics mgmt your unpaid wife is doing, while also working a full time job or not.

Oh and you also get an ego and image boost because you appear like a functional Family Guy. Not only working all the time but likeable enough to still be married and see your kids anytime when convenient.

So instead of fixing the underlying issues in your marriage and household, you tag along like the selfish leech that you are, doing your own thing but continuing the facade of a married father.

Amazing how off base you can be. This is not something I tell the people in my life. She is the one with the image boost from not having the world know that she would leave the kids home to go cheat during the day. I love my kids more than I value my happiness. Since those times she has become a great mom, but she is a horrible spouse.

You sound like you could benefit from meeting a man in real life as an individual. I am far from perfect, but I do apologize when I am wrong and attempt to make decisions that will not only benefit me. I also don’t run from responsibility. Living with the pain of this marriage is much harder than I ever imagined, because I see the loss of us and the woman I loved every day.

So your wife, a “great mom” now, years before that, left her young kids home alone to supposedly go cheat and have an affair? And you confronted her? Or assumed? Or nothing?

That’s great you love your kids. everyone does, even absentee incarcerated fathers of six. They all say they love their children so, so much.

But talk is cheap. Action is where it’s at. Care is demonstrated love. Not words.

You either really know crappy people or are you dealing with a situation that feels personal to you? It reads like you either disagree with my decisions or hate the idea of a person sacrificing their wants, needs and desires for someone else that they care about.

Yes I confronted and it was confirmed, though not immediately and only partially. I know enough to know the love of my life would never treat me the way my wife did.

I am not out to destroy her, she will get half of everything and find a job prior to our D, but I don’t believe my kids should wonder if they were unworthy because of our poor decisions. I may be handling this wrong, but I won’t find out until later if my commitment to their wellbeing over my happiness pays dividends for them. I hope I am lucky enough to find someone else to create a fulfilling relationship without the burden of betrayal, heartbreak and shame.

We are civil with each other and engaged with the kids, I yearn for the time when the woman who broke me and destroyed our family is significantly less prominent in my life. She would like us to reconcile, but the damage done through HER ACTIONS AND WORDS was not cheap. I paid a high price for her lack of character, commitment and values, including being judged by an anonymous, self-righteous internet troll with no knowledge of my situation.

Hopefully, I will be lucky enough to find a woman to love and respect, who also loves and respects me someday.

You sound like you have a fragile ego and can hold a grudge. I was married to a man like you and it nearly destroyed me. Sure, I could be projecting and your wife is/was truly awful. But your self-righteous resentment is also pretty awful.

You may be right, especially considering how much her treatment of me and betrayal impacted how I see myself and the world. My resentment has a self righteous aspect, yet I had no resentment towards her prior. As I said, I am far from perfect and am partially to blame for the state of our relationship when she decided to break our vows, build a secret life and treat me like I was the abusive cheater. She gave the energy she committed to our marriage to someone else, instead of investing in our relationship and family. Life is hard for all of us, marriage gives us a partner to work through the challenges. She resented me for not making her happy/ fulfilled and everyone around her should trade their happiness for hers. That was not the values of the woman I believed she was when I asked her to be my wife, those are the values of a person with no value.

I may be reading into this, but it sounds like you are avoiding taking responsibility for your part in the destruction of the marriage. Resenting him because of his reaction to your actions and rather than caring about his perspective, you blame his fragile ego for the problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

You don’t know my finances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

You do know that you can pay people to manage your affairs, right?

You know everybody is going to have a spouse die before them and they’re going to be alone.

This is what continuous care facilities are for.

You can set all this up before you have dementia.

+1 exactly. I have enough for continuous care. My divorce has absolutely no impact on my children who will eventually be adults someday. I have worked and am an equal earner to my former spouse. In fact, I would be richer if I had never gotten married and had children in the first place. Marriage was the opposite of financial security. Remaining single and not having kids is much better for financial security actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

You do know that you can pay people to manage your affairs, right?

You know everybody is going to have a spouse die before them and they’re going to be alone.

This is what continuous care facilities are for.

You can set all this up before you have dementia.

+1 exactly. I have enough for continuous care. My divorce has absolutely no impact on my children who will eventually be adults someday. I have worked and am an equal earner to my former spouse. In fact, I would be richer if I had never gotten married and had children in the first place. Marriage was the opposite of financial security. Remaining single and not having kids is much better for financial security actually.

You would be richer if you never had kids? Newsflash! Hahaha.

Of course you would, we all would. Kids are expensive.

[Anonymous]

My divorce has absolutely no impact on my children who will eventually be adults someday

Now, I haven't read the whole thread -- but this comment is absolutely ridiculous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's common except the stuggle part.

The gray divorces I know (at least the women) are all financially secure and more than happy being single.

I think they ones that would face financial and emotion struggle are just white knuckling it and staying.

I know a few long term SAHMs who chose gray divorce, once their husbands were at retirement. They stayed during the working years, and then become financially sound by taking (rightfully) half of the retirement and savings and having their own life/retirement with more choices.

I'll never understand this tradeoff. Life is so short, I just don't understand being miserable for years and then once you are well into your late 50s suddenly you have all this grandiose plans with all this money. Travel, romance, fun sex etc all of that is more enjoyable when you are younger

Kids. That's it. Some parents choose delayed gratification to raise their kids under one roof and tuck them in every night. But once their off and we feel we've done the lion's share of our job as parents, it's our turn to focus on our happiness again with whatever time we have left.

This is me as well. I have basically hated my wife for 15 years, but sacrificed my happiness for my kids stability. I never cheated and I do regret marrying her, but my commitment is more important than my happiness. 2 more years….

You mean you’re staying for the free high quality child care, cooking, home mgmt, scheduling, health monitoring, cleaning and logistics mgmt your unpaid wife is doing, while also working a full time job or not.

Oh and you also get an ego and image boost because you appear like a functional Family Guy. Not only working all the time but likeable enough to still be married and see your kids anytime when convenient.

So instead of fixing the underlying issues in your marriage and household, you tag along like the selfish leech that you are, doing your own thing but continuing the facade of a married father.

Amazing how off base you can be. This is not something I tell the people in my life. She is the one with the image boost from not having the world know that she would leave the kids home to go cheat during the day. I love my kids more than I value my happiness. Since those times she has become a great mom, but she is a horrible spouse.

You sound like you could benefit from meeting a man in real life as an individual. I am far from perfect, but I do apologize when I am wrong and attempt to make decisions that will not only benefit me. I also don’t run from responsibility. Living with the pain of this marriage is much harder than I ever imagined, because I see the loss of us and the woman I loved every day.

I was in a similar situation and feel this guy's pain. Now I'm divorced and happier. My kids figured out the score and thanked me for staying until the youngest was out of the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gray divorce is a massive pain in the ass for your adult children. Stick it out for 10 years, then you won't care and can just live like room mates.

Why? Genuinely curious since I’m in the middle of one. I’ll come out of it financially stable and won’t need to work (I’m 52). Two adult kids who have graduated college already. Plans are made for who pays for weddings etc.

Because they still have to spend time with both of you but it's not like they suddenly get 2x the vacation time just because their parents are divorced.

Because managing two aging adults in separate properties is harder than one property. And because you might be single so your children, rather than a spouse or partner, has to be next of kin.

Stop thinking about how this will be in your 50s-70s. Think about how it will be in your 80s and 90s.

That is stupid. Many people don't live that long.

Ok, think about how it will be at whatever age you become unable to manage your own affairs.

I have enough money, thanks. My old age will not impact my kids.

Really perplexed why you think having money = being able to manage your own affairs. It's a matter of your physical health and your cognitive ability. And if you're having dementia and no competent person is overseeing your decisions, you won't have money for long.

You do know that you can pay people to manage your affairs, right?

You know everybody is going to have a spouse die before them and they’re going to be alone.

This is what continuous care facilities are for.

You can set all this up before you have dementia.

Not entirely. Even significant wealth with the best intentions with planning can be A LOT of work for someone else, ideally handled by someone who is a stake holder. Ask me how I know.