If the IDF hurt one of my children, I regret to say that I'd probably do more than support Hamas. After the IDF has killed and mutilated, displaced, and starved so many Palestinians, I'm surprised that number is as low as 72%.
Yes. This. Israel’s outsized response is only servicing to make Jews less safe worldwide. If you think IDF’s response has been justified based on 1200 deaths and 250 kidnapped victims, just imagine what the Palestinians want to do to Israelis for 20x that amount of suffering.
Wow. What both of you numbskulls conveniently ignore is the FACT that Hamas brutally mutilated, tortured, raped, and murdered, children and other innocent civilians FIRST. Why is it so easy for you to totally twist this narrative? Do you know how insane you sound?
DP
It is a mistake to try to assign a “first” in this conflict. You are correct that Hamas carried out a brutal attack on October 7th, but they didn’t spring into existence on October 6th.
A very interesting article written by an Israeli author.
That's behind a firewall. At any rate, regardless of Jewish settlements, etc. - Israelis have NOT tortured and raped Palestinian women and children. Hamas are monsters. I hope they're eradicated from the face of the earth.
Just a reminder this is the statement categorically denying Israelis have tortured and raped Palestinian women which is precisely what the Israeli justice system says has taken place.
They’ve raped more Palestinian men than the women because they know men don’t ever speak out about such things
Cool story bro. Make wild accusations with no proof, and then give yourself fake cover by saying "you won't hear about it because it's suppressed / people are being bought off / they won't talk to it because of cultural issues" etc.
Here is a report about a 15 year old boy who was raped and was subjected to torture in the genitalia in 2021 by Israeli forces.
This incident has been mentioned in interviews by Josh Paul, who resigned from the US state department earlier this year.
Again for individual reports vs. mass rape event. This is equivalent to when Jeff said about Shani Louk “she had her underwear on”
Ok then say “Israel doesn’t carry out mass rape” and not “Israelis do NOT rape Palestinians”.
Don’t make verifiably false statements and then get defensive when someone tells you they’re false. And really if I were in your shoes I’d take a beat on making either of those claims because we don’t know the full scale of what’s happening right now, and you may find yourself re-defining your parameters for behavior yet again.
You are saying that possibly, Israeli soldiers are mass raping Palestinian women, cutting off breasts, and desecrating the bodies, ie parading their corpses through the streets of Tel Aviv while civilian Israelis are spitting on their dead flesh?
No? I am saying it’s possible there is a larger sexual violence issue with the IDF that we don’t yet know about (due to gag orders and also the lack of reporting from Gaza right now) and so I would continue to advise everyone not to make blanket statements about their behavior which are either verifiably false or have the potential to be proven false later. Stick with what is verifiably true.
The IDF are heroes, and if we had a reasonable leadership in this country people like you blatantly slandering such heroes would be arrested and tried for your crimes.
You believe that it should be a crime in the United States to post verified facts— published by the governments in question— about the conduct of foreign militaries?
They are NOT verified. They were part of a biased opinion piece as shown by the fact that the website has the word ‘Palestine’ in its url.
Posting verifiable facts is not a crime, but terrorizing Jewish people by slandering the IDF is and should be a crime.
It was not an opinion piece but actually a report put out by Defense for Children international- Palestine which is an NGO that works for the rights of children in the West Bank and Gaza.
Shortly after they came out with this report they were designated a terrorist organization by Israel and had their offices raided. Several countries (France, Germany, Sweden among others) said there was no proof of terrorism and would continue to work with them.
This is mentioned in an interview former state department official Josh Paul gave on PBS:
I was part of the human rights vetting process for arms going to Israel. And a charity called Defensive Children
International Palestine drew our attention at the State Department to the sexual assault, actually the rape of a 13-year-old boy that occurred in an
Israeli prison in Moskobiya (ph) in Jerusalem.
We examined these allegations. We believe they were credible. We put them through Israel to the government of Israel. And you know what happened the
next day? The IDF went into the DCIP offices and removed all their computers and declared them a terrorist entity.
So you admit that Israel determined that the group making this allegation was found to be a terrorist organization by Israel, right?
So why should I read their report if they are a terrorist organization? As I said in my first post, it is clearly biased.
Do whatever you want, but Israel has proven time and time again to be the party in this conflict that cannot be trusted, and that cannot sustain integrity in their reporting of what’s occurring in the region.
People without an agenda instinctively laugh aloud when “Israel” and “facts” are mentioned in the same breath. Zero integrity. Zero credibility.
Israel is basically an isolated state on the world stage because countries don’t trust anyone affiliated with the Israeli government. Maybe that will change with a new wave of political leaders in Israel, but right now, Israel is not taken seriously by the rest of the world. Its just not.
DP. Well, we’ve definitely found the nutter. If you replace Hamas for Israel in your post, you’d be 100% correct. Unfortunately, you’re just trolling at this point. Israel has allies all over the world - including the U.S. and other western countries. What’s truly laughable is your inability to admit that Hamas is everything you listed, and worse. I honestly don’t know why I’m expending energy on you. You’re clearly pro-Hamas.
I’m not the poster you’re responding to but think about those allies. Every
One— Every Single One with the glaring exception of the U.S. has called for a ceasefire and condemned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
And here’s why: support for Israel’s wholesale killing of civilians is undermining all European credibility when condemning the same from Russia. Putin is laughing all the way to the UNSC knowing the next time there’s an atrocity in Ukraine like Bucha— at which the sexual violence, including against children was in fact comparable to October 7– he can just show the pictures of thousands of dead Palestinian children in their screaming mothers arms and ask why the U.S only cares about killed children when they’re European.
Support for evil acts in one place undermines our ability to oppose it anywhere. The U.S. has a moral duty to stop facilitating this violence against children.
And Israel has a moral duty— and many Israelis believe it has a moral duty— to protect children. Israel has not been successful in targeting Hamas leadership in this campaign, it is time to reassess their tactics and regain the support they’re losing.
DP. Israel has eliminated numerous Hamas leaders. It has four or so in Gaza left to find.
Not nearly as many as they need to in order make a proportional warfare case. Meanwhile they’re literally sitting in Qatar in luxury, while Israel kills children and claims it’s only targeting Hamas— meanwhile Hamas is elsewhere. It’s a horrific optic.
Huh? Hamas is estimated to have up to 30,000 terrorists operating in Gaza. Israel has eliminated at least 9,000 of them to date and taken at least 700 prisoners. Blame Hamas for the optics.
They have not eliminated “at least 9,000” unless your math is that every adult killed in Gaza was “a Hamas fighter”.
They have eliminated very few high value targets. They have admitted this— it’s why they say they will need to operate for months— meanwhile significant leadership of Hamas isn’t in Gaza. They’re killing low value targets and civilians which is why they’ve lost so much support in the last month.
My math is based on the source: 1,000 terrorists eliminated on October 7 and the days immediately following. Add to that 8,000 terrorists subsequently. And that’s a low estimate. Hamas does not include the 8,000 in its numbers.
Ok I’m going to need a citation for these
8,000 uncounted “Hamas fighters”. The 700 captured is reported by the BBC.
Please post the links that differentiate from the 20,000 killed figures. Seriously I cannot find any.
The Hamas ministry of health does not separate out the numbers or separate out those killed by Hamas failed rocket launches. IDF has stated 2:1 ratio.
Yeah I find that uncompelling based on the demographics of Gaza. It sounds like they’re either counting all adult deaths,
Or all “males of fighting age” deaths. If they have evidence they’re really only killing Hamas fighters they certainly need to release it.
The UN has said the Gaza ministry of health figures are reliable historically, I am not seeing any suggestion that this a different case.
I see no suggestion not to take Hamas numbers with a grain of salt. Israel states that since the End of the Truce it liquidated 2,000 Hamas terrorists. Proof to the contrary?
2,000 is believable. 7,000 less so.
Based on what, exactly? What makes you believe 2,000 vs 7,000? Just curious about what bias you’re applying to your interpretation of data from Hamas … the terrorist organization.
When the Gazan health ministry data was questioned they released a list of everyone included in their fatality count— names, ages, etc. If Israel is confident that each of the 7,000 people it claims to have killed are Hamas, they should release the information about all 7,000. There should be plenty of data about all these known terrorists.
Again, unless they’re defining “Hamas fighters” in some less specific way.
Hamas was even in the Israeli death toll of 1400 originally. I think they only mass killed Hamas on 10/7 since that was when Hamas was there to be killed.
I don’t think they killed more than 50 Hamas in Gaza Strip. It would be difficult given the tunnels are fortified against air strikes
I don’t understand why aren’t they letting their civilians into tunnels for protection against air strikes and why can they build tunnels but not bomb shelters?
Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why aren’t they letting their civilians into tunnels for protection against air strikes and why can they build tunnels but not bomb shelters?
You must be dense or ignorant. The tunnels were built to conceal travel and allow shipments of goods that would otherwise be blocked due to the blockade and restrictions imposed by Israel
I do think at this point the Israeli destruction of Gaza is both morally indefensible and extremely poor strategy. What's the end game here? They've destroyed the homes and communities of more than 2 million people. They have nowhere to live. Nowhere to work. There's hardly any food or water. Gaza is going to be a desperate place for years if not decades. It will entirely be dependent on foreign aid. It will be a hopeless place.
Prior to 10/7, roughly 50 percent of Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas. I suspect the rest were mostly indifferent and just getting on with their lives. After this, you will have an entire population wanting vengeance and the destruction of Israel. There's no win here. Attacks of opportunity on Israel will occur for another generation or two. By launching total war, they've made their security situation worse not better.
That being said, there are consequences to invading a country and committing atrocities as Hamas did. It was an incredibly stupid and self-destructive move by Hamas to murder and rape and hurt all those innocent people. Every country on the planet would have an emotional response to that kind of terror and horror. Look at what we did after 9/11. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. We spent twenty years there, lost thousands of our own soldiers, spent trillions of dollars, and killed a lot more than 20,000. Roughly 500,000 people lost their lives because of our irrational response to an act of extreme terror. And in the end, it was all for nothing. Afghanistan is back under the control of the Taliban. And Iraq is effectively a vassal state of Iran.
Hamas knew what they were doing when they invaded Israel. They knew Israel would respond with total war. The Netanyahu government, full of extremist West Bank settlers, is the most right wing government in the history of Israel. The attacks were a gift to them. They get to destroy Palestinians with impunity. And Hamas knew Gaza would be destroyed and thousands of Palestinians would die. Until recently, there's not a child in Gaza that had ever seen an Israeli in their entire lives. And now they have the IDF and the ruination of their future.
Hamas chose this war. The fault for everything lies with them. Every nation in the world is going to respond with rage to the kind of brutality inflicted on a bunch of very progressive kibitzers and music festival attendees. There is no justification for what they did. And they knew what would happen to Gaza. This is the cost of having extremists in government. It's not going work out well for Palestinians. And it's not going to work out well for Israelis either. The whole situation is sad and tragic.
Anonymous wrote:I do think at this point the Israeli destruction of Gaza is both morally indefensible and extremely poor strategy. What's the end game here? They've destroyed the homes and communities of more than 2 million people. They have nowhere to live. Nowhere to work. There's hardly any food or water. Gaza is going to be a desperate place for years if not decades. It will entirely be dependent on foreign aid. It will be a hopeless place.
Prior to 10/7, roughly 50 percent of Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas. I suspect the rest were mostly indifferent and just getting on with their lives. After this, you will have an entire population wanting vengeance and the destruction of Israel. There's no win here. Attacks of opportunity on Israel will occur for another generation or two. By launching total war, they've made their security situation worse not better.
That being said, there are consequences to invading a country and committing atrocities as Hamas did. It was an incredibly stupid and self-destructive move by Hamas to murder and rape and hurt all those innocent people. Every country on the planet would have an emotional response to that kind of terror and horror. Look at what we did after 9/11. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. We spent twenty years there, lost thousands of our own soldiers, spent trillions of dollars, and killed a lot more than 20,000. Roughly 500,000 people lost their lives because of our irrational response to an act of extreme terror. And in the end, it was all for nothing. Afghanistan is back under the control of the Taliban. And Iraq is effectively a vassal state of Iran.
Hamas knew what they were doing when they invaded Israel. They knew Israel would respond with total war. The Netanyahu government, full of extremist West Bank settlers, is the most right wing government in the history of Israel. The attacks were a gift to them. They get to destroy Palestinians with impunity. And Hamas knew Gaza would be destroyed and thousands of Palestinians would die. Until recently, there's not a child in Gaza that had ever seen an Israeli in their entire lives. And now they have the IDF and the ruination of their future.
Hamas chose this war. The fault for everything lies with them. Every nation in the world is going to respond with rage to the kind of brutality inflicted on a bunch of very progressive kibitzers and music festival attendees. There is no justification for what they did. And they knew what would happen to Gaza. This is the cost of having extremists in government. It's not going work out well for Palestinians. And it's not going to work out well for Israelis either. The whole situation is sad and tragic.
Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why aren’t they letting their civilians into tunnels for protection against air strikes and why can they build tunnels but not bomb shelters?
You must be dense or ignorant. The tunnels were built to conceal travel and allow shipments of goods that would otherwise be blocked due to the blockade and restrictions imposed by Israel
Anonymous wrote:I do think at this point the Israeli destruction of Gaza is both morally indefensible and extremely poor strategy. What's the end game here? They've destroyed the homes and communities of more than 2 million people. They have nowhere to live. Nowhere to work. There's hardly any food or water. Gaza is going to be a desperate place for years if not decades. It will entirely be dependent on foreign aid. It will be a hopeless place.
Prior to 10/7, roughly 50 percent of Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas. I suspect the rest were mostly indifferent and just getting on with their lives. After this, you will have an entire population wanting vengeance and the destruction of Israel. There's no win here. Attacks of opportunity on Israel will occur for another generation or two. By launching total war, they've made their security situation worse not better.
That being said, there are consequences to invading a country and committing atrocities as Hamas did. It was an incredibly stupid and self-destructive move by Hamas to murder and rape and hurt all those innocent people. Every country on the planet would have an emotional response to that kind of terror and horror. Look at what we did after 9/11. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. We spent twenty years there, lost thousands of our own soldiers, spent trillions of dollars, and killed a lot more than 20,000. Roughly 500,000 people lost their lives because of our irrational response to an act of extreme terror. And in the end, it was all for nothing. Afghanistan is back under the control of the Taliban. And Iraq is effectively a vassal state of Iran.
Hamas knew what they were doing when they invaded Israel. They knew Israel would respond with total war. The Netanyahu government, full of extremist West Bank settlers, is the most right wing government in the history of Israel. The attacks were a gift to them. They get to destroy Palestinians with impunity. And Hamas knew Gaza would be destroyed and thousands of Palestinians would die. Until recently, there's not a child in Gaza that had ever seen an Israeli in their entire lives. And now they have the IDF and the ruination of their future.
Hamas chose this war. The fault for everything lies with them. Every nation in the world is going to respond with rage to the kind of brutality inflicted on a bunch of very progressive kibitzers and music festival attendees. There is no justification for what they did. And they knew what would happen to Gaza. This is the cost of having extremists in government. It's not going work out well for Palestinians. And it's not going to work out well for Israelis either. The whole situation is sad and tragic.
If the IDF hurt one of my children, I regret to say that I'd probably do more than support Hamas. After the IDF has killed and mutilated, displaced, and starved so many Palestinians, I'm surprised that number is as low as 72%.
Yes. This. Israel’s outsized response is only servicing to make Jews less safe worldwide. If you think IDF’s response has been justified based on 1200 deaths and 250 kidnapped victims, just imagine what the Palestinians want to do to Israelis for 20x that amount of suffering.
Wow. What both of you numbskulls conveniently ignore is the FACT that Hamas brutally mutilated, tortured, raped, and murdered, children and other innocent civilians FIRST. Why is it so easy for you to totally twist this narrative? Do you know how insane you sound?
DP
It is a mistake to try to assign a “first” in this conflict. You are correct that Hamas carried out a brutal attack on October 7th, but they didn’t spring into existence on October 6th.
A very interesting article written by an Israeli author.
That's behind a firewall. At any rate, regardless of Jewish settlements, etc. - Israelis have NOT tortured and raped Palestinian women and children. Hamas are monsters. I hope they're eradicated from the face of the earth.
Just a reminder this is the statement categorically denying Israelis have tortured and raped Palestinian women which is precisely what the Israeli justice system says has taken place.
They’ve raped more Palestinian men than the women because they know men don’t ever speak out about such things
Cool story bro. Make wild accusations with no proof, and then give yourself fake cover by saying "you won't hear about it because it's suppressed / people are being bought off / they won't talk to it because of cultural issues" etc.
Here is a report about a 15 year old boy who was raped and was subjected to torture in the genitalia in 2021 by Israeli forces.
This incident has been mentioned in interviews by Josh Paul, who resigned from the US state department earlier this year.
Again for individual reports vs. mass rape event. This is equivalent to when Jeff said about Shani Louk “she had her underwear on”
Ok then say “Israel doesn’t carry out mass rape” and not “Israelis do NOT rape Palestinians”.
Don’t make verifiably false statements and then get defensive when someone tells you they’re false. And really if I were in your shoes I’d take a beat on making either of those claims because we don’t know the full scale of what’s happening right now, and you may find yourself re-defining your parameters for behavior yet again.
You are saying that possibly, Israeli soldiers are mass raping Palestinian women, cutting off breasts, and desecrating the bodies, ie parading their corpses through the streets of Tel Aviv while civilian Israelis are spitting on their dead flesh?
No? I am saying it’s possible there is a larger sexual violence issue with the IDF that we don’t yet know about (due to gag orders and also the lack of reporting from Gaza right now) and so I would continue to advise everyone not to make blanket statements about their behavior which are either verifiably false or have the potential to be proven false later. Stick with what is verifiably true.
The IDF are heroes, and if we had a reasonable leadership in this country people like you blatantly slandering such heroes would be arrested and tried for your crimes.
You believe that it should be a crime in the United States to post verified facts— published by the governments in question— about the conduct of foreign militaries?
They are NOT verified. They were part of a biased opinion piece as shown by the fact that the website has the word ‘Palestine’ in its url.
Posting verifiable facts is not a crime, but terrorizing Jewish people by slandering the IDF is and should be a crime.
It was not an opinion piece but actually a report put out by Defense for Children international- Palestine which is an NGO that works for the rights of children in the West Bank and Gaza.
Shortly after they came out with this report they were designated a terrorist organization by Israel and had their offices raided. Several countries (France, Germany, Sweden among others) said there was no proof of terrorism and would continue to work with them.
This is mentioned in an interview former state department official Josh Paul gave on PBS:
I was part of the human rights vetting process for arms going to Israel. And a charity called Defensive Children
International Palestine drew our attention at the State Department to the sexual assault, actually the rape of a 13-year-old boy that occurred in an
Israeli prison in Moskobiya (ph) in Jerusalem.
We examined these allegations. We believe they were credible. We put them through Israel to the government of Israel. And you know what happened the
next day? The IDF went into the DCIP offices and removed all their computers and declared them a terrorist entity.
So you admit that Israel determined that the group making this allegation was found to be a terrorist organization by Israel, right?
So why should I read their report if they are a terrorist organization? As I said in my first post, it is clearly biased.
Do whatever you want, but Israel has proven time and time again to be the party in this conflict that cannot be trusted, and that cannot sustain integrity in their reporting of what’s occurring in the region.
People without an agenda instinctively laugh aloud when “Israel” and “facts” are mentioned in the same breath. Zero integrity. Zero credibility.
Israel is basically an isolated state on the world stage because countries don’t trust anyone affiliated with the Israeli government. Maybe that will change with a new wave of political leaders in Israel, but right now, Israel is not taken seriously by the rest of the world. Its just not.
DP. Well, we’ve definitely found the nutter. If you replace Hamas for Israel in your post, you’d be 100% correct. Unfortunately, you’re just trolling at this point. Israel has allies all over the world - including the U.S. and other western countries. What’s truly laughable is your inability to admit that Hamas is everything you listed, and worse. I honestly don’t know why I’m expending energy on you. You’re clearly pro-Hamas.
I’m not the poster you’re responding to but think about those allies. Every
One— Every Single One with the glaring exception of the U.S. has called for a ceasefire and condemned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
And here’s why: support for Israel’s wholesale killing of civilians is undermining all European credibility when condemning the same from Russia. Putin is laughing all the way to the UNSC knowing the next time there’s an atrocity in Ukraine like Bucha— at which the sexual violence, including against children was in fact comparable to October 7– he can just show the pictures of thousands of dead Palestinian children in their screaming mothers arms and ask why the U.S only cares about killed children when they’re European.
Support for evil acts in one place undermines our ability to oppose it anywhere. The U.S. has a moral duty to stop facilitating this violence against children.
And Israel has a moral duty— and many Israelis believe it has a moral duty— to protect children. Israel has not been successful in targeting Hamas leadership in this campaign, it is time to reassess their tactics and regain the support they’re losing.
DP. Israel has eliminated numerous Hamas leaders. It has four or so in Gaza left to find.
DP. Israel is creating the next generation of Palestinian terrorists. Any surviving Palestinian is going to hate Israel even more after this current battle is over.
IDF uncovered children’s Hamas military uniforms and Hamas uses children for tactical military purposes. And vile anti-Jewish hatred is taught in Gaza schools. It’s a tough bar to top!
Anonymous wrote:I do think at this point the Israeli destruction of Gaza is both morally indefensible and extremely poor strategy. What's the end game here? They've destroyed the homes and communities of more than 2 million people. They have nowhere to live. Nowhere to work. There's hardly any food or water. Gaza is going to be a desperate place for years if not decades. It will entirely be dependent on foreign aid. It will be a hopeless place.
Prior to 10/7, roughly 50 percent of Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas. I suspect the rest were mostly indifferent and just getting on with their lives. After this, you will have an entire population wanting vengeance and the destruction of Israel. There's no win here. Attacks of opportunity on Israel will occur for another generation or two. By launching total war, they've made their security situation worse not better.
That being said, there are consequences to invading a country and committing atrocities as Hamas did. It was an incredibly stupid and self-destructive move by Hamas to murder and rape and hurt all those innocent people. Every country on the planet would have an emotional response to that kind of terror and horror. Look at what we did after 9/11. We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. We spent twenty years there, lost thousands of our own soldiers, spent trillions of dollars, and killed a lot more than 20,000. Roughly 500,000 people lost their lives because of our irrational response to an act of extreme terror. And in the end, it was all for nothing. Afghanistan is back under the control of the Taliban. And Iraq is effectively a vassal state of Iran.
Hamas knew what they were doing when they invaded Israel. They knew Israel would respond with total war. The Netanyahu government, full of extremist West Bank settlers, is the most right wing government in the history of Israel. The attacks were a gift to them. They get to destroy Palestinians with impunity. And Hamas knew Gaza would be destroyed and thousands of Palestinians would die. Until recently, there's not a child in Gaza that had ever seen an Israeli in their entire lives. And now they have the IDF and the ruination of their future.
Hamas chose this war. The fault for everything lies with them. Every nation in the world is going to respond with rage to the kind of brutality inflicted on a bunch of very progressive kibitzers and music festival attendees. There is no justification for what they did. And they knew what would happen to Gaza. This is the cost of having extremists in government. It's not going work out well for Palestinians. And it's not going to work out well for Israelis either. The whole situation is sad and tragic.
Bullseye.
It's awful that this conflict persists for the innocent Palestinians who don't support terror (whether bloodthirsty Hamas or otherwise), for the Israelis who don't support terror (whether Bibi and his bloodthirsty cronies, or otherwise), and also for the Arabs and Jews around the globe who likewise don't support the terror industrial complex that exists in that region of the world. And also for Americans who just want to be free of any involvement in this conflict.
I feel genuinely bad for all of them / us, especially this time of year.
As for the rest, there's zero sympathy. Supporters of terrorism on either side (whether imposed by a non-uniformed military / Hamas or a uniformed one / IDF and settler community), I have no sympathy. The clowns protesting and chanting "Blah Blah Blah, I charge you with genocide!", along with other weirdo chants, I have no sympathy. The Palestinians and Israelis who won't accept that compromise will be necessary to secure peace, I have no sympathy. The individuals harming Arabs and Jews in the U.S., I have no sympathy. And the Jews (and anyone else) who thinks they are intrinsically superior to others, here in the U.S. and around the world, defending the actions of the State of Israel toward Palestinians or the actions of Hamas toward Israelis, I have no sympathy.
If the IDF hurt one of my children, I regret to say that I'd probably do more than support Hamas. After the IDF has killed and mutilated, displaced, and starved so many Palestinians, I'm surprised that number is as low as 72%.
Yes. This. Israel’s outsized response is only servicing to make Jews less safe worldwide. If you think IDF’s response has been justified based on 1200 deaths and 250 kidnapped victims, just imagine what the Palestinians want to do to Israelis for 20x that amount of suffering.
Wow. What both of you numbskulls conveniently ignore is the FACT that Hamas brutally mutilated, tortured, raped, and murdered, children and other innocent civilians FIRST. Why is it so easy for you to totally twist this narrative? Do you know how insane you sound?
DP
It is a mistake to try to assign a “first” in this conflict. You are correct that Hamas carried out a brutal attack on October 7th, but they didn’t spring into existence on October 6th.
A very interesting article written by an Israeli author.
That's behind a firewall. At any rate, regardless of Jewish settlements, etc. - Israelis have NOT tortured and raped Palestinian women and children. Hamas are monsters. I hope they're eradicated from the face of the earth.
Just a reminder this is the statement categorically denying Israelis have tortured and raped Palestinian women which is precisely what the Israeli justice system says has taken place.
They’ve raped more Palestinian men than the women because they know men don’t ever speak out about such things
Cool story bro. Make wild accusations with no proof, and then give yourself fake cover by saying "you won't hear about it because it's suppressed / people are being bought off / they won't talk to it because of cultural issues" etc.
Here is a report about a 15 year old boy who was raped and was subjected to torture in the genitalia in 2021 by Israeli forces.
This incident has been mentioned in interviews by Josh Paul, who resigned from the US state department earlier this year.
Again for individual reports vs. mass rape event. This is equivalent to when Jeff said about Shani Louk “she had her underwear on”
Ok then say “Israel doesn’t carry out mass rape” and not “Israelis do NOT rape Palestinians”.
Don’t make verifiably false statements and then get defensive when someone tells you they’re false. And really if I were in your shoes I’d take a beat on making either of those claims because we don’t know the full scale of what’s happening right now, and you may find yourself re-defining your parameters for behavior yet again.
You are saying that possibly, Israeli soldiers are mass raping Palestinian women, cutting off breasts, and desecrating the bodies, ie parading their corpses through the streets of Tel Aviv while civilian Israelis are spitting on their dead flesh?
No? I am saying it’s possible there is a larger sexual violence issue with the IDF that we don’t yet know about (due to gag orders and also the lack of reporting from Gaza right now) and so I would continue to advise everyone not to make blanket statements about their behavior which are either verifiably false or have the potential to be proven false later. Stick with what is verifiably true.
The IDF are heroes, and if we had a reasonable leadership in this country people like you blatantly slandering such heroes would be arrested and tried for your crimes.
You believe that it should be a crime in the United States to post verified facts— published by the governments in question— about the conduct of foreign militaries?
They are NOT verified. They were part of a biased opinion piece as shown by the fact that the website has the word ‘Palestine’ in its url.
Posting verifiable facts is not a crime, but terrorizing Jewish people by slandering the IDF is and should be a crime.
It was not an opinion piece but actually a report put out by Defense for Children international- Palestine which is an NGO that works for the rights of children in the West Bank and Gaza.
Shortly after they came out with this report they were designated a terrorist organization by Israel and had their offices raided. Several countries (France, Germany, Sweden among others) said there was no proof of terrorism and would continue to work with them.
This is mentioned in an interview former state department official Josh Paul gave on PBS:
I was part of the human rights vetting process for arms going to Israel. And a charity called Defensive Children
International Palestine drew our attention at the State Department to the sexual assault, actually the rape of a 13-year-old boy that occurred in an
Israeli prison in Moskobiya (ph) in Jerusalem.
We examined these allegations. We believe they were credible. We put them through Israel to the government of Israel. And you know what happened the
next day? The IDF went into the DCIP offices and removed all their computers and declared them a terrorist entity.
So you admit that Israel determined that the group making this allegation was found to be a terrorist organization by Israel, right?
So why should I read their report if they are a terrorist organization? As I said in my first post, it is clearly biased.
Do whatever you want, but Israel has proven time and time again to be the party in this conflict that cannot be trusted, and that cannot sustain integrity in their reporting of what’s occurring in the region.
People without an agenda instinctively laugh aloud when “Israel” and “facts” are mentioned in the same breath. Zero integrity. Zero credibility.
Israel is basically an isolated state on the world stage because countries don’t trust anyone affiliated with the Israeli government. Maybe that will change with a new wave of political leaders in Israel, but right now, Israel is not taken seriously by the rest of the world. Its just not.
DP. Well, we’ve definitely found the nutter. If you replace Hamas for Israel in your post, you’d be 100% correct. Unfortunately, you’re just trolling at this point. Israel has allies all over the world - including the U.S. and other western countries. What’s truly laughable is your inability to admit that Hamas is everything you listed, and worse. I honestly don’t know why I’m expending energy on you. You’re clearly pro-Hamas.
I’m not the poster you’re responding to but think about those allies. Every
One— Every Single One with the glaring exception of the U.S. has called for a ceasefire and condemned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
And here’s why: support for Israel’s wholesale killing of civilians is undermining all European credibility when condemning the same from Russia. Putin is laughing all the way to the UNSC knowing the next time there’s an atrocity in Ukraine like Bucha— at which the sexual violence, including against children was in fact comparable to October 7– he can just show the pictures of thousands of dead Palestinian children in their screaming mothers arms and ask why the U.S only cares about killed children when they’re European.
Support for evil acts in one place undermines our ability to oppose it anywhere. The U.S. has a moral duty to stop facilitating this violence against children.
And Israel has a moral duty— and many Israelis believe it has a moral duty— to protect children. Israel has not been successful in targeting Hamas leadership in this campaign, it is time to reassess their tactics and regain the support they’re losing.
DP. Israel has eliminated numerous Hamas leaders. It has four or so in Gaza left to find.
DP. Israel is creating the next generation of Palestinian terrorists. Any surviving Palestinian is going to hate Israel even more after this current battle is over.
IDF uncovered children’s Hamas military uniforms and Hamas uses children for tactical military purposes. And vile anti-Jewish hatred is taught in Gaza schools. It’s a tough bar to top!
Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why aren’t they letting their civilians into tunnels for protection against air strikes and why can they build tunnels but not bomb shelters?
You must be dense or ignorant. The tunnels were built to conceal travel and allow shipments of goods that would otherwise be blocked due to the blockade and restrictions imposed by Israel
If the IDF hurt one of my children, I regret to say that I'd probably do more than support Hamas. After the IDF has killed and mutilated, displaced, and starved so many Palestinians, I'm surprised that number is as low as 72%.
Yes. This. Israel’s outsized response is only servicing to make Jews less safe worldwide. If you think IDF’s response has been justified based on 1200 deaths and 250 kidnapped victims, just imagine what the Palestinians want to do to Israelis for 20x that amount of suffering.
Wow. What both of you numbskulls conveniently ignore is the FACT that Hamas brutally mutilated, tortured, raped, and murdered, children and other innocent civilians FIRST. Why is it so easy for you to totally twist this narrative? Do you know how insane you sound?
DP
It is a mistake to try to assign a “first” in this conflict. You are correct that Hamas carried out a brutal attack on October 7th, but they didn’t spring into existence on October 6th.
A very interesting article written by an Israeli author.
That's behind a firewall. At any rate, regardless of Jewish settlements, etc. - Israelis have NOT tortured and raped Palestinian women and children. Hamas are monsters. I hope they're eradicated from the face of the earth.
Just a reminder this is the statement categorically denying Israelis have tortured and raped Palestinian women which is precisely what the Israeli justice system says has taken place.
They’ve raped more Palestinian men than the women because they know men don’t ever speak out about such things
Cool story bro. Make wild accusations with no proof, and then give yourself fake cover by saying "you won't hear about it because it's suppressed / people are being bought off / they won't talk to it because of cultural issues" etc.
Here is a report about a 15 year old boy who was raped and was subjected to torture in the genitalia in 2021 by Israeli forces.
This incident has been mentioned in interviews by Josh Paul, who resigned from the US state department earlier this year.
Again for individual reports vs. mass rape event. This is equivalent to when Jeff said about Shani Louk “she had her underwear on”
Ok then say “Israel doesn’t carry out mass rape” and not “Israelis do NOT rape Palestinians”.
Don’t make verifiably false statements and then get defensive when someone tells you they’re false. And really if I were in your shoes I’d take a beat on making either of those claims because we don’t know the full scale of what’s happening right now, and you may find yourself re-defining your parameters for behavior yet again.
You are saying that possibly, Israeli soldiers are mass raping Palestinian women, cutting off breasts, and desecrating the bodies, ie parading their corpses through the streets of Tel Aviv while civilian Israelis are spitting on their dead flesh?
No? I am saying it’s possible there is a larger sexual violence issue with the IDF that we don’t yet know about (due to gag orders and also the lack of reporting from Gaza right now) and so I would continue to advise everyone not to make blanket statements about their behavior which are either verifiably false or have the potential to be proven false later. Stick with what is verifiably true.
The IDF are heroes, and if we had a reasonable leadership in this country people like you blatantly slandering such heroes would be arrested and tried for your crimes.
You believe that it should be a crime in the United States to post verified facts— published by the governments in question— about the conduct of foreign militaries?
They are NOT verified. They were part of a biased opinion piece as shown by the fact that the website has the word ‘Palestine’ in its url.
Posting verifiable facts is not a crime, but terrorizing Jewish people by slandering the IDF is and should be a crime.
It was not an opinion piece but actually a report put out by Defense for Children international- Palestine which is an NGO that works for the rights of children in the West Bank and Gaza.
Shortly after they came out with this report they were designated a terrorist organization by Israel and had their offices raided. Several countries (France, Germany, Sweden among others) said there was no proof of terrorism and would continue to work with them.
This is mentioned in an interview former state department official Josh Paul gave on PBS:
I was part of the human rights vetting process for arms going to Israel. And a charity called Defensive Children
International Palestine drew our attention at the State Department to the sexual assault, actually the rape of a 13-year-old boy that occurred in an
Israeli prison in Moskobiya (ph) in Jerusalem.
We examined these allegations. We believe they were credible. We put them through Israel to the government of Israel. And you know what happened the
next day? The IDF went into the DCIP offices and removed all their computers and declared them a terrorist entity.
So you admit that Israel determined that the group making this allegation was found to be a terrorist organization by Israel, right?
So why should I read their report if they are a terrorist organization? As I said in my first post, it is clearly biased.
Do whatever you want, but Israel has proven time and time again to be the party in this conflict that cannot be trusted, and that cannot sustain integrity in their reporting of what’s occurring in the region.
People without an agenda instinctively laugh aloud when “Israel” and “facts” are mentioned in the same breath. Zero integrity. Zero credibility.
Israel is basically an isolated state on the world stage because countries don’t trust anyone affiliated with the Israeli government. Maybe that will change with a new wave of political leaders in Israel, but right now, Israel is not taken seriously by the rest of the world. Its just not.
DP. Well, we’ve definitely found the nutter. If you replace Hamas for Israel in your post, you’d be 100% correct. Unfortunately, you’re just trolling at this point. Israel has allies all over the world - including the U.S. and other western countries. What’s truly laughable is your inability to admit that Hamas is everything you listed, and worse. I honestly don’t know why I’m expending energy on you. You’re clearly pro-Hamas.
I’m not the poster you’re responding to but think about those allies. Every
One— Every Single One with the glaring exception of the U.S. has called for a ceasefire and condemned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians.
And here’s why: support for Israel’s wholesale killing of civilians is undermining all European credibility when condemning the same from Russia. Putin is laughing all the way to the UNSC knowing the next time there’s an atrocity in Ukraine like Bucha— at which the sexual violence, including against children was in fact comparable to October 7– he can just show the pictures of thousands of dead Palestinian children in their screaming mothers arms and ask why the U.S only cares about killed children when they’re European.
Support for evil acts in one place undermines our ability to oppose it anywhere. The U.S. has a moral duty to stop facilitating this violence against children.
And Israel has a moral duty— and many Israelis believe it has a moral duty— to protect children. Israel has not been successful in targeting Hamas leadership in this campaign, it is time to reassess their tactics and regain the support they’re losing.
DP. Israel has eliminated numerous Hamas leaders. It has four or so in Gaza left to find.
Not nearly as many as they need to in order make a proportional warfare case. Meanwhile they’re literally sitting in Qatar in luxury, while Israel kills children and claims it’s only targeting Hamas— meanwhile Hamas is elsewhere. It’s a horrific optic.
Huh? Hamas is estimated to have up to 30,000 terrorists operating in Gaza. Israel has eliminated at least 9,000 of them to date and taken at least 700 prisoners. Blame Hamas for the optics.
They have not eliminated “at least 9,000” unless your math is that every adult killed in Gaza was “a Hamas fighter”.
They have eliminated very few high value targets. They have admitted this— it’s why they say they will need to operate for months— meanwhile significant leadership of Hamas isn’t in Gaza. They’re killing low value targets and civilians which is why they’ve lost so much support in the last month.
My math is based on the source: 1,000 terrorists eliminated on October 7 and the days immediately following. Add to that 8,000 terrorists subsequently. And that’s a low estimate. Hamas does not include the 8,000 in its numbers.
Ok I’m going to need a citation for these
8,000 uncounted “Hamas fighters”. The 700 captured is reported by the BBC.
Please post the links that differentiate from the 20,000 killed figures. Seriously I cannot find any.
The Hamas ministry of health does not separate out the numbers or separate out those killed by Hamas failed rocket launches. IDF has stated 2:1 ratio.
Yeah I find that uncompelling based on the demographics of Gaza. It sounds like they’re either counting all adult deaths,
Or all “males of fighting age” deaths. If they have evidence they’re really only killing Hamas fighters they certainly need to release it.
The UN has said the Gaza ministry of health figures are reliable historically, I am not seeing any suggestion that this a different case.
I see no suggestion not to take Hamas numbers with a grain of salt. Israel states that since the End of the Truce it liquidated 2,000 Hamas terrorists. Proof to the contrary?
2,000 is believable. 7,000 less so.
Based on what, exactly? What makes you believe 2,000 vs 7,000? Just curious about what bias you’re applying to your interpretation of data from Hamas … the terrorist organization.
It is a lot less vs 2,000. The numbers I am hearing is maybe 100 to 200 Hamas killed if that. The IDF is calming any kill as Hamas. They reported at first the hostages killed as “Hamas” terrorists. There is no reason to believe Hamas stood and fought. They blended in to the civilian population and Israel declared war on the civilians. A lot of Hamas left before Oct 7 and the remaining escaped the area after Oct 7 because it took so long for the IDF to get its act together.
All the fact on the ground that show the IDF is having very limited success killing Hamas. Getting Hamas is not the goal of the operation. The goal is to eliminate 2.3 million Palestinians from Israelis controlled territory. Looking at the IDF actions will reveal their true aims. Inability to finding the hostages(if the IDF is actually looking for them is another concern), the shoot on sight rules of engagement, the lack of “miles and miles” of tunnels, the systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure(every healthcare facility has been targeted over 378), the total destruction of habitable buildings for no military reason, the 20,000 plus civilians killed, the starvation of 2.3 million people, bombing refugees in area demeaned a safe zone, etc, etc.
Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why aren’t they letting their civilians into tunnels for protection against air strikes and why can they build tunnels but not bomb shelters?
Becuase they don’t trust Palestinians to not be informants to Israel . They can’t let everyone in on the secret tunnels. Otherwise it won’t be a secret anymore. They regularly spy on their own and have members kill each other for suspected spying. It’s like a Mafia. Hamas members have to prove they are true by even cutting off communication to family to live permanently in the tunnels
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