Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this day and age using a midwife why?

Oh o guess the dumb Bible thumping crowd not liking science

Being a parent means doing the best even in childbirth that means a hospital

There's variety in midwifery care. Both of my DDs were delivered by CNMs (Certified Nurse Midwives) in a hospital. I had to be induced, and I received epidurals both times. Prenatal and postnatal care was attentive, excellent, and evidence-based.

Delivery by CNMs in a hospital setting is best of both worlds, in my experience.

People need to understand that there is a tremendous difference between a CNM (tons of training) and a CPM (basically an apprenticeship). Karen Carr is a CPM.
Never ever hire a CPM.

+1 from the PP who linked to the (most recent) Post article, and who saw CNMs for all three pregnancies/L&D.

Also: I am livid with Maryland for deciding to "license" CPMs. I remember voting against this proposal when it was on the ballot and unfortunately, it passed. That Karen Carr can continue to legally practice in this state is unconscionable.

Why are you against licensing? The Wapo article says "Overall, full-term infants in the United States are more than twice as likely to die after planned home births attended by midwives as those delivered in hospitals by any providers, according to a Post analysis of CDC data over five years." Why wouldn't you want licensing? or am i missing something here?

NP
Licensing of CNM’s is fine. Licensing of CPM’s is not. They shouldn’t be allowed to practice period.

[Anonymous]

I’m just gobsmacked that someone would consider their birth experience a higher priority than having a healthy live baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The higher death rates for home births is even more shocking when you consider that it is almost certainly a substantially lower risk population. Women on Medicaid aren’t doing these home births, nor are women with previa, toximia, GD, or the drug addicts.
The truth is that in either setting, odds are you and your baby will survive. But what risk level are you okay with?

I had what many people would consider a “traumatic” hospital birth. Nearly died, hours in the table with painful procedures, days in IcU immobilized so I wouldn’t pull out the shunt, etc. But I’m very happy about that trauma because if I’d had a home birth, I’d almost certainly be dead. Transfusions and injectable foam saved my life and allowed my children to grow up with their mommy. I don’t look back on those days as trauma—I look at them as a medical victory over the “nature” that killed so many of the women that went before us. Yay medicine!

A thousand times this. REALLY shocking.

You don't get to dictate how others respond to trauma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The higher death rates for home births is even more shocking when you consider that it is almost certainly a substantially lower risk population. Women on Medicaid aren’t doing these home births, nor are women with previa, toximia, GD, or the drug addicts.
The truth is that in either setting, odds are you and your baby will survive. But what risk level are you okay with?

I had what many people would consider a “traumatic” hospital birth. Nearly died, hours in the table with painful procedures, days in IcU immobilized so I wouldn’t pull out the shunt, etc. But I’m very happy about that trauma because if I’d had a home birth, I’d almost certainly be dead. Transfusions and injectable foam saved my life and allowed my children to grow up with their mommy. I don’t look back on those days as trauma—I look at them as a medical victory over the “nature” that killed so many of the women that went before us. Yay medicine!

My life/fertility were also saved by interventional radiology after a severe postpartum hemorrhage, followed by a stay in the ICU Just wanted to say hi from one PPH survivor to another. I was low risk very well could have died in a home birth.

[Anonymous]

I read the post article yesterday and just saw this thread. Man, the first few pages are wild after reading the article. Lots of posts in support of Carr.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The higher death rates for home births is even more shocking when you consider that it is almost certainly a substantially lower risk population. Women on Medicaid aren’t doing these home births, nor are women with previa, toximia, GD, or the drug addicts.
The truth is that in either setting, odds are you and your baby will survive. But what risk level are you okay with?

I had what many people would consider a “traumatic” hospital birth. Nearly died, hours in the table with painful procedures, days in IcU immobilized so I wouldn’t pull out the shunt, etc. But I’m very happy about that trauma because if I’d had a home birth, I’d almost certainly be dead. Transfusions and injectable foam saved my life and allowed my children to grow up with their mommy. I don’t look back on those days as trauma—I look at them as a medical victory over the “nature” that killed so many of the women that went before us. Yay medicine!

I’m really glad that you survived a heavy duty birth, but please don’t denigrate women who literally do have medical trauma. Not everyone experiences or deals with trauma in the same way and you might have had medical care that made you feel a part of the decisions vs women who aren’t. I have a friend whose first pregnancy went badly sideways around 23 weeks with HELLP syndrome and a really intensive few hours (and then her preemie in the NICU for six months). She was able to move past it, but I met her a few years after and she was still shaken up. Grateful but shaken.

are you suggesting your friend’s 23 week premature birth would have been less traumatic if she did it at home with a midwife?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When I saw the story on the WaPo website (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/home-birth-midwife-karen-carr/) right now, I remembered this thread and wondered if the midwife in today's story was the same as the one I'd read about on DCUM so many years ago, when I was pregnant with my midwife-delievered VBAC baby. I'm shocked that yet another baby has died, but in a way I'm relieved to know that there's only one notoriously dangerous midwife in our area. Maybe now something will be done.

My heart goes out to this family.

If you think that there is only one dangerous midwife in our area, you are sorely mistaken. There are CNMs in this area who are just as narcissistic and egomaniacal as Karen Carr. If you want to search you can find some cases in the DC Superior Court records - and those are just the instances of poor outcomes where the women filed suit, not the ones where women had bad outcomes and advocated against the negligence or mistreatment they experienced in other ways.

I’m not anti midwife. There are also some who are truly fantastic. But I could list off, by name, several CNMs in the DMV that I had care from personally who suffer from the same hubris as Carr did.

There was a great comment on the article by a retired OB or L and D nurse that said something to the effect of, there are women in this profession who really enjoy having power over other women, and it is so true. It’s not true of every provider, but it’s definitely true of some.

+1000. There was a cult midwife at GW who should not have been anywhere near pregnant women. Even some of the people named in the Carr cases like the assistant in on of the Amish deaths was frequently posted about on DCUM as a cult favorite doula.

Oh also - the *birth photographer* that Carr allowed to monitor the fetal heartbeat in this story is still practicing and even brags on her website about having had a high risk (macrosomic) homebirth and forgoing medical care.

There’s a real cult around “natural birth” in this area that I myself was also caught up in, in a way that seems totally inexplicable to me now. It takes a lot of cojones to try to exert ideological control over women at such a vulnerable time.

And it’s not even just midwives. There was a doctor down in Atlanta who became known as the doctor to go to for high risk women who wanted to VBAC. Or women who switch practices to find someone willing to do a vaginal birth after other doctors recommend a c section due to high risk. A whole Facebook group was started where women shared their stories of birth injuries and then some people countered and protested in support of him. He eventually lost his privileges at one hospital, but overall it seems like a lot of this stuff is handled quietly with closed door investigations and it is up to patients to find grassroots ways to notify the public of the risks. Add in vulnerable women with a history of distrust of the medical community (maybe even rightfully so after a past trauma), and it’s just ripe for a cult following of these people.


https://www.ajc.com/news/public-affairs/atlanta-doctor-focus-natural-birth-controversy/3id7GI3yOorV3Ibw8K5k6O/

I had a high risk OB withhold the information that my residual myometrium thinned (uterus was slowly rupturing) from 1.8mm at 37 weeks to 0.8mm at 38 weeks and offer me an induced TOLAC. When I asked him the chance of rupture he waved his hands and said "There isn't really a number" then he writes in my C section note "minimally increased". I could tell he was being a BS artist. He went on to totally botch the repeat C section, leaving me with symptomatic endometritis, which I complained about and he promptly blew off. He was more interested in covering for his colleagues than saving my baby's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The higher death rates for home births is even more shocking when you consider that it is almost certainly a substantially lower risk population. Women on Medicaid aren’t doing these home births, nor are women with previa, toximia, GD, or the drug addicts.
The truth is that in either setting, odds are you and your baby will survive. But what risk level are you okay with?

I had what many people would consider a “traumatic” hospital birth. Nearly died, hours in the table with painful procedures, days in IcU immobilized so I wouldn’t pull out the shunt, etc. But I’m very happy about that trauma because if I’d had a home birth, I’d almost certainly be dead. Transfusions and injectable foam saved my life and allowed my children to grow up with their mommy. I don’t look back on those days as trauma—I look at them as a medical victory over the “nature” that killed so many of the women that went before us. Yay medicine!

I’m really glad that you survived a heavy duty birth, but please don’t denigrate women who literally do have medical trauma. Not everyone experiences or deals with trauma in the same way and you might have had medical care that made you feel a part of the decisions vs women who aren’t. I have a friend whose first pregnancy went badly sideways around 23 weeks with HELLP syndrome and a really intensive few hours (and then her preemie in the NICU for six months). She was able to move past it, but I met her a few years after and she was still shaken up. Grateful but shaken.

I am really not trying to denigrate anyone. But I think this concept of medical trauma or birth trauma is really dangerous to normalize and we women sell ourselves short when we do so. The brain is weird and Many people have irrational responses to many things. I’m terrified of heights for no particular reason. But people should not make health decisions based on irrational anxiety—instead they should get treatment for that anxiety. I was stitched up for over a half hour with no anesthesia — it wasn’t great. And no one asked my permission to do it. (And actually it didn’t even work so really just ended up being pointless pain.). But I absolutely do not blame that OB. She was trying what she could in the moment and at the end of it all, I walked out of that hospital which is what matters. Once sh-t starts to fly, medical professionals are almost always choosing between bad options. Nature has a real brutal side — I think we’re so insulated in our post-industrial world that we forget it and get seduced by this idea that “natural” is better. It’s nature that’s the trauma — not the medicine.

1. You should blame that doctor, there is something called a pudendal nerve block she was too lazy to do
2. A natural birth advocate would say perineal lacerations are usually secondary to instrumental birth and/or oxytocin and/or epidural

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The higher death rates for home births is even more shocking when you consider that it is almost certainly a substantially lower risk population. Women on Medicaid aren’t doing these home births, nor are women with previa, toximia, GD, or the drug addicts.
The truth is that in either setting, odds are you and your baby will survive. But what risk level are you okay with?

I had what many people would consider a “traumatic” hospital birth. Nearly died, hours in the table with painful procedures, days in IcU immobilized so I wouldn’t pull out the shunt, etc. But I’m very happy about that trauma because if I’d had a home birth, I’d almost certainly be dead. Transfusions and injectable foam saved my life and allowed my children to grow up with their mommy. I don’t look back on those days as trauma—I look at them as a medical victory over the “nature” that killed so many of the women that went before us. Yay medicine!

I’m really glad that you survived a heavy duty birth, but please don’t denigrate women who literally do have medical trauma. Not everyone experiences or deals with trauma in the same way and you might have had medical care that made you feel a part of the decisions vs women who aren’t. I have a friend whose first pregnancy went badly sideways around 23 weeks with HELLP syndrome and a really intensive few hours (and then her preemie in the NICU for six months). She was able to move past it, but I met her a few years after and she was still shaken up. Grateful but shaken.

I am really not trying to denigrate anyone. But I think this concept of medical trauma or birth trauma is really dangerous to normalize and we women sell ourselves short when we do so. The brain is weird and Many people have irrational responses to many things. I’m terrified of heights for no particular reason. But people should not make health decisions based on irrational anxiety—instead they should get treatment for that anxiety. I was stitched up for over a half hour with no anesthesia — it wasn’t great. And no one asked my permission to do it. (And actually it didn’t even work so really just ended up being pointless pain.). But I absolutely do not blame that OB. She was trying what she could in the moment and at the end of it all, I walked out of that hospital which is what matters. Once sh-t starts to fly, medical professionals are almost always choosing between bad options. Nature has a real brutal side — I think we’re so insulated in our post-industrial world that we forget it and get seduced by this idea that “natural” is better. It’s nature that’s the trauma — not the medicine.

This is so incredibly true, and succinctly written. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When I saw the story on the WaPo website (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/home-birth-midwife-karen-carr/) right now, I remembered this thread and wondered if the midwife in today's story was the same as the one I'd read about on DCUM so many years ago, when I was pregnant with my midwife-delievered VBAC baby. I'm shocked that yet another baby has died, but in a way I'm relieved to know that there's only one notoriously dangerous midwife in our area. Maybe now something will be done.

My heart goes out to this family.

If you think that there is only one dangerous midwife in our area, you are sorely mistaken. There are CNMs in this area who are just as narcissistic and egomaniacal as Karen Carr. If you want to search you can find some cases in the DC Superior Court records - and those are just the instances of poor outcomes where the women filed suit, not the ones where women had bad outcomes and advocated against the negligence or mistreatment they experienced in other ways.

I’m not anti midwife. There are also some who are truly fantastic. But I could list off, by name, several CNMs in the DMV that I had care from personally who suffer from the same hubris as Carr did.

There was a great comment on the article by a retired OB or L and D nurse that said something to the effect of, there are women in this profession who really enjoy having power over other women, and it is so true. It’s not true of every provider, but it’s definitely true of some.

I have suffered terrible abuse at the hands of male and female OBs and female midwives.

Male OB/RE: botched saline sono and caused a horrific high risk pregnancy (very thin C section scar that was threatening to spontaneously rupture before the due date) against my wishes, horded records in an attempt to cover it up. The abnormality is so large is plainly visible on the memory FET ultrasound the nurse gave me not realizing what happened right in front of her
Male OB: asked if I needed to take my pants off for an ultrasound (which the above condition needed), he said "No, I'm keeping mine on" and told me to "trust me" about extremely dangerous VBAC, lied to me and said my uterus was normal, fired him and went to-->
Three female midwives: engaged in a group conspiracy to "run out the clock" on the above pregnancy, pretending the issue was being addressed when it was not
Male OB who did 2nd C section: Told him in plain English I thought I had an infection, gave me a deer in the headlight look then didn't do anything to help me. Refused to see me in person after because he's "high risk". Sent me to below OB-->
Female OB: "It doesn't matter" when I told her my baby almost died, tried to bully me out of having my uterus fixed. I walked on on this b--ch

Finally met a competent surgeon, turns out my uterine edges were 100% separated, spanned by thin adhesion only, and my uterus was infected with poop bacteria for over a year, and yes I did have symptoms and complained about them, everybody blew me off

As for this midwife, I am shocked she's being charged with a crime when partial birth abortions are legal. It's wrong to bully a woman for getting an abortion but it's fine to bully her for her birth choice? Total BS. This will just cause women to give birth at home unassisted. Why is there no consequences for the horrific behavior of these providers? Why is this culture of treating women like absolute s--t institutionalized in obstetrics? Those are the real questions that need to be asked.

Are we just BANNING all vaginal breech births? So mom has ONLY the choice between surgery or a late term abortion? What happened to that baby could have easily happened in a hospital attempted vaginal breech delivery. The baby was only stuck for 20 minutes and chances are even in a hospital a C section would not have been done in only 20 minutes

I have done alot of research on this topic and I am convinced that C sections cause more babies to not be born due to maternal choice and silent infertility than they save from fetal loss during birth, probably a 10:1 ratio. Just look at countries with the worst healthcare systems, they are teaming with babies.

99% of women who are asked to choose between TOLAC and repeat C are not being given the most critical piece of information to make that decision, namely their residual myometrium/lower uterine segment thickness, which highly inversely correlates with uterine rupture risk. There is a conspiracy to keep this information away from women because routinely scanning would expose the OBs with incompetent surgical technique and open them up to lawsuits. OBs would rather babies just die or bully women into repeat Cs, which carry a risk to their lives. "Just cut everybody" cannot and should not be the solution to every obstetric problem in the world.

You are blabbering on about *a lot* but I can say with 120% certainty this is not true. There is not a proven direct correlation and while uterine health examinations exist, no peer-reviewed studies have shown a direct relationship uterine rupture. This is why some doctors (rightfully) refuse VBAC.

I do however agree with you that doctors need to be much more forthcoming about the risks than they are, and honest that there is no single test that will put a former cesarean woman’s mind at complete ease.

Signed, I do this research as part of my job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When I saw the story on the WaPo website (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/home-birth-midwife-karen-carr/) right now, I remembered this thread and wondered if the midwife in today's story was the same as the one I'd read about on DCUM so many years ago, when I was pregnant with my midwife-delievered VBAC baby. I'm shocked that yet another baby has died, but in a way I'm relieved to know that there's only one notoriously dangerous midwife in our area. Maybe now something will be done.

My heart goes out to this family.

If you think that there is only one dangerous midwife in our area, you are sorely mistaken. There are CNMs in this area who are just as narcissistic and egomaniacal as Karen Carr. If you want to search you can find some cases in the DC Superior Court records - and those are just the instances of poor outcomes where the women filed suit, not the ones where women had bad outcomes and advocated against the negligence or mistreatment they experienced in other ways.

I’m not anti midwife. There are also some who are truly fantastic. But I could list off, by name, several CNMs in the DMV that I had care from personally who suffer from the same hubris as Carr did.

There was a great comment on the article by a retired OB or L and D nurse that said something to the effect of, there are women in this profession who really enjoy having power over other women, and it is so true. It’s not true of every provider, but it’s definitely true of some.

I have suffered terrible abuse at the hands of male and female OBs and female midwives.

Male OB/RE: botched saline sono and caused a horrific high risk pregnancy (very thin C section scar that was threatening to spontaneously rupture before the due date) against my wishes, horded records in an attempt to cover it up. The abnormality is so large is plainly visible on the memory FET ultrasound the nurse gave me not realizing what happened right in front of her
Male OB: asked if I needed to take my pants off for an ultrasound (which the above condition needed), he said "No, I'm keeping mine on" and told me to "trust me" about extremely dangerous VBAC, lied to me and said my uterus was normal, fired him and went to-->
Three female midwives: engaged in a group conspiracy to "run out the clock" on the above pregnancy, pretending the issue was being addressed when it was not
Male OB who did 2nd C section: Told him in plain English I thought I had an infection, gave me a deer in the headlight look then didn't do anything to help me. Refused to see me in person after because he's "high risk". Sent me to below OB-->
Female OB: "It doesn't matter" when I told her my baby almost died, tried to bully me out of having my uterus fixed. I walked on on this b--ch

Finally met a competent surgeon, turns out my uterine edges were 100% separated, spanned by thin adhesion only, and my uterus was infected with poop bacteria for over a year, and yes I did have symptoms and complained about them, everybody blew me off

As for this midwife, I am shocked she's being charged with a crime when partial birth abortions are legal. It's wrong to bully a woman for getting an abortion but it's fine to bully her for her birth choice? Total BS. This will just cause women to give birth at home unassisted. Why is there no consequences for the horrific behavior of these providers? Why is this culture of treating women like absolute s--t institutionalized in obstetrics? Those are the real questions that need to be asked.

Are we just BANNING all vaginal breech births? So mom has ONLY the choice between surgery or a late term abortion? What happened to that baby could have easily happened in a hospital attempted vaginal breech delivery. The baby was only stuck for 20 minutes and chances are even in a hospital a C section would not have been done in only 20 minutes

I have done alot of research on this topic and I am convinced that C sections cause more babies to not be born due to maternal choice and silent infertility than they save from fetal loss during birth, probably a 10:1 ratio. Just look at countries with the worst healthcare systems, they are teaming with babies.

99% of women who are asked to choose between TOLAC and repeat C are not being given the most critical piece of information to make that decision, namely their residual myometrium/lower uterine segment thickness, which highly inversely correlates with uterine rupture risk. There is a conspiracy to keep this information away from women because routinely scanning would expose the OBs with incompetent surgical technique and open them up to lawsuits. OBs would rather babies just die or bully women into repeat Cs, which carry a risk to their lives. "Just cut everybody" cannot and should not be the solution to every obstetric problem in the world.

You lost me when you started going on about “partial birth abortion” - which by the way is purely a political term and not a medical one. And the old “I’ve done a lot of research” trope, which doesn’t make you a medical professional.

Medical gaslighting in women’s health is absolutely an issue, and I’m sorry you had issues getting treated correctly, but your subsequent statements are dangerous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When I saw the story on the WaPo website (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/home-birth-midwife-karen-carr/) right now, I remembered this thread and wondered if the midwife in today's story was the same as the one I'd read about on DCUM so many years ago, when I was pregnant with my midwife-delievered VBAC baby. I'm shocked that yet another baby has died, but in a way I'm relieved to know that there's only one notoriously dangerous midwife in our area. Maybe now something will be done.

My heart goes out to this family.

If you think that there is only one dangerous midwife in our area, you are sorely mistaken. There are CNMs in this area who are just as narcissistic and egomaniacal as Karen Carr. If you want to search you can find some cases in the DC Superior Court records - and those are just the instances of poor outcomes where the women filed suit, not the ones where women had bad outcomes and advocated against the negligence or mistreatment they experienced in other ways.

I’m not anti midwife. There are also some who are truly fantastic. But I could list off, by name, several CNMs in the DMV that I had care from personally who suffer from the same hubris as Carr did.

There was a great comment on the article by a retired OB or L and D nurse that said something to the effect of, there are women in this profession who really enjoy having power over other women, and it is so true. It’s not true of every provider, but it’s definitely true of some.

I have suffered terrible abuse at the hands of male and female OBs and female midwives.

Male OB/RE: botched saline sono and caused a horrific high risk pregnancy (very thin C section scar that was threatening to spontaneously rupture before the due date) against my wishes, horded records in an attempt to cover it up. The abnormality is so large is plainly visible on the memory FET ultrasound the nurse gave me not realizing what happened right in front of her
Male OB: asked if I needed to take my pants off for an ultrasound (which the above condition needed), he said "No, I'm keeping mine on" and told me to "trust me" about extremely dangerous VBAC, lied to me and said my uterus was normal, fired him and went to-->
Three female midwives: engaged in a group conspiracy to "run out the clock" on the above pregnancy, pretending the issue was being addressed when it was not
Male OB who did 2nd C section: Told him in plain English I thought I had an infection, gave me a deer in the headlight look then didn't do anything to help me. Refused to see me in person after because he's "high risk". Sent me to below OB-->
Female OB: "It doesn't matter" when I told her my baby almost died, tried to bully me out of having my uterus fixed. I walked on on this b--ch

Finally met a competent surgeon, turns out my uterine edges were 100% separated, spanned by thin adhesion only, and my uterus was infected with poop bacteria for over a year, and yes I did have symptoms and complained about them, everybody blew me off

As for this midwife, I am shocked she's being charged with a crime when partial birth abortions are legal. It's wrong to bully a woman for getting an abortion but it's fine to bully her for her birth choice? Total BS. This will just cause women to give birth at home unassisted. Why is there no consequences for the horrific behavior of these providers? Why is this culture of treating women like absolute s--t institutionalized in obstetrics? Those are the real questions that need to be asked.

Are we just BANNING all vaginal breech births? So mom has ONLY the choice between surgery or a late term abortion? What happened to that baby could have easily happened in a hospital attempted vaginal breech delivery. The baby was only stuck for 20 minutes and chances are even in a hospital a C section would not have been done in only 20 minutes

I have done alot of research on this topic and I am convinced that C sections cause more babies to not be born due to maternal choice and silent infertility than they save from fetal loss during birth, probably a 10:1 ratio. Just look at countries with the worst healthcare systems, they are teaming with babies.

99% of women who are asked to choose between TOLAC and repeat C are not being given the most critical piece of information to make that decision, namely their residual myometrium/lower uterine segment thickness, which highly inversely correlates with uterine rupture risk. There is a conspiracy to keep this information away from women because routinely scanning would expose the OBs with incompetent surgical technique and open them up to lawsuits. OBs would rather babies just die or bully women into repeat Cs, which carry a risk to their lives. "Just cut everybody" cannot and should not be the solution to every obstetric problem in the world.

You are blabbering on about *a lot* but I can say with 120% certainty this is not true. There is not a proven direct correlation and while uterine health examinations exist, no peer-reviewed studies have shown a direct relationship uterine rupture. This is why some doctors (rightfully) refuse VBAC.

I do however agree with you that doctors need to be much more forthcoming about the risks than they are, and honest that there is no single test that will put a former cesarean woman’s mind at complete ease.

Signed, I do this research as part of my job.

This is absolutely not true. Women almost never rupture if they have 3mm residual myometrium. The studies are not being done because there is a conspiracy of incompetence and because everyone knows it is incredibly dangerous to allow a woman <1mm residual myometrium to labour, and 90% of the nope the f out if they know, so it is borderline unethical (to scan then and not tell them). I can absolutely tell you I know more than experts on this topic because they are willfully blind to them harming women (and babies). It is actually just a crime what has been done to women for decades. The isthmocele entity was first described in the 1970s. There's no excuse for there not being better studies and guidelines at this point. My TOLAC consent form from the hospital had no factor with as high as 10% risk of rupture, which I had with my thin residual myometrium

[Anonymous]

I had a spontaneous pregnancy after years of infertility. I went to MFM for my pregnancy. Friends kept telling me to go to midwives, GW, and I was like nope I need the expertise and the science if this goes sideways. I had an uneventful pregnancy and uneventful birth and I was never pressured into a c section. But you know what I would have gotten one if I needed it. I was born c section! My point is I was shocked at pressure and culture around natural birth and home birth by so many throughout my journey. It really was like a cult trying to recruit you. I could see how some might fall/ feel pressure.

I am a fan of natural, supplements, questioning…. But there is a place for science, licensed practitioners, and medical intervention. People that I know that were adamant about natural home birth process have trauma over their birth stories. I hope more women get the guidance and help they need to make better choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. When I saw the story on the WaPo website (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/home-birth-midwife-karen-carr/) right now, I remembered this thread and wondered if the midwife in today's story was the same as the one I'd read about on DCUM so many years ago, when I was pregnant with my midwife-delievered VBAC baby. I'm shocked that yet another baby has died, but in a way I'm relieved to know that there's only one notoriously dangerous midwife in our area. Maybe now something will be done.

My heart goes out to this family.

If you think that there is only one dangerous midwife in our area, you are sorely mistaken. There are CNMs in this area who are just as narcissistic and egomaniacal as Karen Carr. If you want to search you can find some cases in the DC Superior Court records - and those are just the instances of poor outcomes where the women filed suit, not the ones where women had bad outcomes and advocated against the negligence or mistreatment they experienced in other ways.

I’m not anti midwife. There are also some who are truly fantastic. But I could list off, by name, several CNMs in the DMV that I had care from personally who suffer from the same hubris as Carr did.

There was a great comment on the article by a retired OB or L and D nurse that said something to the effect of, there are women in this profession who really enjoy having power over other women, and it is so true. It’s not true of every provider, but it’s definitely true of some.

I have suffered terrible abuse at the hands of male and female OBs and female midwives.

Male OB/RE: botched saline sono and caused a horrific high risk pregnancy (very thin C section scar that was threatening to spontaneously rupture before the due date) against my wishes, horded records in an attempt to cover it up. The abnormality is so large is plainly visible on the memory FET ultrasound the nurse gave me not realizing what happened right in front of her
Male OB: asked if I needed to take my pants off for an ultrasound (which the above condition needed), he said "No, I'm keeping mine on" and told me to "trust me" about extremely dangerous VBAC, lied to me and said my uterus was normal, fired him and went to-->
Three female midwives: engaged in a group conspiracy to "run out the clock" on the above pregnancy, pretending the issue was being addressed when it was not
Male OB who did 2nd C section: Told him in plain English I thought I had an infection, gave me a deer in the headlight look then didn't do anything to help me. Refused to see me in person after because he's "high risk". Sent me to below OB-->
Female OB: "It doesn't matter" when I told her my baby almost died, tried to bully me out of having my uterus fixed. I walked on on this b--ch

Finally met a competent surgeon, turns out my uterine edges were 100% separated, spanned by thin adhesion only, and my uterus was infected with poop bacteria for over a year, and yes I did have symptoms and complained about them, everybody blew me off

As for this midwife, I am shocked she's being charged with a crime when partial birth abortions are legal. It's wrong to bully a woman for getting an abortion but it's fine to bully her for her birth choice? Total BS. This will just cause women to give birth at home unassisted. Why is there no consequences for the horrific behavior of these providers? Why is this culture of treating women like absolute s--t institutionalized in obstetrics? Those are the real questions that need to be asked.

Are we just BANNING all vaginal breech births? So mom has ONLY the choice between surgery or a late term abortion? What happened to that baby could have easily happened in a hospital attempted vaginal breech delivery. The baby was only stuck for 20 minutes and chances are even in a hospital a C section would not have been done in only 20 minutes

I have done alot of research on this topic and I am convinced that C sections cause more babies to not be born due to maternal choice and silent infertility than they save from fetal loss during birth, probably a 10:1 ratio. Just look at countries with the worst healthcare systems, they are teaming with babies.

99% of women who are asked to choose between TOLAC and repeat C are not being given the most critical piece of information to make that decision, namely their residual myometrium/lower uterine segment thickness, which highly inversely correlates with uterine rupture risk. There is a conspiracy to keep this information away from women because routinely scanning would expose the OBs with incompetent surgical technique and open them up to lawsuits. OBs would rather babies just die or bully women into repeat Cs, which carry a risk to their lives. "Just cut everybody" cannot and should not be the solution to every obstetric problem in the world.

You are blabbering on about *a lot* but I can say with 120% certainty this is not true. There is not a proven direct correlation and while uterine health examinations exist, no peer-reviewed studies have shown a direct relationship uterine rupture. This is why some doctors (rightfully) refuse VBAC.

I do however agree with you that doctors need to be much more forthcoming about the risks than they are, and honest that there is no single test that will put a former cesarean woman’s mind at complete ease.

Signed, I do this research as part of my job.

Is the Lancet good enough for you?

The frequency of defects
rose as the thickness of the lower uterine segment
decreased: there were no defects among 278 women with
measurements greater than 4.5 mm, three (2%) among
177 women with values of 3.6-4.5 mm, 14 (10%) among
136 women with values of 2.6-3.5 mm, and eight (16%)
among 51 women with values of 1.6-2.5 mm.

(the 3.6-4.5mm group ruptures were almost certainly botched ultrasounds, I had even an expert in isthmoceles fail to look for the thinnest part of mine that was seen on a regular pelvic ultrasound, doctors are LAZY)

This Rozenburg author more recently did a study where the women in the thinnest group were told their measurement and 90% of them opted for C sections then the study found no difference - obviously a statistically biased study but it does show that women *DO* want to know their measurement to make the TOLAC decision and every doctor who offers a TOLAC without scanning her is basically committing a form of medical assault. I happen to be knowledgeable on this topic because it happens to me, but I'm sure this abuse is common in every aspect of obstetrics. So yeah, I'm not going to fault a woman who attempts a risky vaginal birth at home. I FAULT THE DOCTORS.

Here is the Kok review study
https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/uog.12479

I will to happy to accept your admission that you're dead wrong and your apology now. Thanks.

I can't believe you think it is ok that ALL former C section patients be bullied into more C sections. Breath taking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had a spontaneous pregnancy after years of infertility. I went to MFM for my pregnancy. Friends kept telling me to go to midwives, GW, and I was like nope I need the expertise and the science if this goes sideways. I had an uneventful pregnancy and uneventful birth and I was never pressured into a c section. But you know what I would have gotten one if I needed it. I was born c section! My point is I was shocked at pressure and culture around natural birth and home birth by so many throughout my journey. It really was like a cult trying to recruit you. I could see how some might fall/ feel pressure.

I am a fan of natural, supplements, questioning…. But there is a place for science, licensed practitioners, and medical intervention. People that I know that were adamant about natural home birth process have trauma over their birth stories. I hope more women get the guidance and help they need to make better choices.

I had bad experiences with all three of my midwife births. Setting aside my C section isthmocele being horrifically mismanaged, my midwife induced me for premature rupture of membranes and group B strep at midnight, very hard and fast labour or a first time mom, purple pushed for 2.5 hours, unreduced nuchal hand, baby had a low apgar score of 3, had to be resuscitated. I had post partum depression nobody recognized. Never got help for. Still needed to go to a breast feeding clinic and pay for a lactation consultant, so the idea that midwives have magic boobie fairy dust is BS in my experience. Another midwife said the induction was not necessary for the group B step. That probably kicked off the blue baby.

For my third birth my roommate had placental abruption and her almost dead baby also had an apgar score of 3. My midwife didn't even remember!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How do you not remember your patient needing a resuscitation? Blows my mind. I mean, how many times a year does she produce a blue baby? Was she just totally burnt out? Crazy.