Harvard is not alone. UC students Without 8th Grade Math Skills Skyrockets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The solution is not to make kids provide AP scores. High school students should not have to take college classes in high school just to get into college.

The solution is not to require SAT tests. It’s not clear how well SATs predict anything.

The solution is to bring back SAT high school subject tests or the equivalent and require in-state UC students to get the equivalent of at least C’s on at least three of those.

The SAT subject tests used to measure something very practical: How well students had learned ordinary high school students.

Students obviously can improve their scores on subject tests by studying, and studying for those tests would give them something of value: literacy.

The UC schools could give exemptions for students with good reasoning and language skills along with learning disabilities in math.

What? APs are appropriate college prep exams. The only reason we haven't required them is no one has pressured school districts to open AP courses at all of their schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ironically, the students who major in sociology, ethnic studies and other soft subjects end up being the ones working in education administration and setting admissions policy, where they proceed to favor other students like them in the admissions process. part of the problem is that administrators and not actual faculty have taken control of the admissions process and student evaluation methods.

This!! It’s not being talked about enough. This is why there’s so much stupidity in education

While I agree that the type of person who becomes an admissions officer is not the best and brightest, they are not in control. They simple execute the directive that comes from senior leadership. It’s the board, chancellor, deans etc and it is very much a business decision. UCSD is extremely strong in some majors. If the rankings didn’t push them to admit so many kids who don’t belong there, they wouldn’t do it. They need the high ranking to attract international and out of state students for money. All UCs struggle with yield from this population so the rankings matter to them.

My son has friends who had tippy top stats, really smart and nice kids who worked incredibly hard and were rejected from every UC except Merced. They are at Purdue, Carnegie Mellon, UIUC, and Cornell doing great but racking up debt They would have loved to go to Cal, UCLA, Irvine, Davis, SD, SB or even Santa Cruz! Instead of accepting the kid that is getting top grades at Cornell, UCSD chose someone who has math skills below a middle schooler.

I thought we were talking about education/admissions administration and policy, not the actual uni admissions. What you are saying kind of supports my statement, no? They have a directive to accept more people like them, mediocre but with the right narrative - FGLI and such.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UC San Diego admitted 26 students from Lincoln High School in San Diego. Only 12 students in the entire senior class met California's basic high school math standards on their CAASP test. Only 4% even pass an AP exam.

UC San Diego isn't getting the best and brightest from California. It is getting the best and brightest from each high school. The problem is a large proportion of their high schools have extreme low performers and no high performers.

So here we are. College students who are barely literate and with math skills of 5th graders.

The problem is not that the UCs are taking in decent students from rotten schools.

The acute problem is that the UCs can’t provide remedial instruction for those students.

The long-term problem is that the state hasn’t figure out to offer these students access to better classes, at least online, while the students are still in high school.

UC’s mission is not to be in the business of providing remedial education. UC’s strength is research and graduate programs.Due to their focus on equity and access they are turning away many kids who have the academic preparation to fully take advantage of those opportunities and instead admitting kids who may need several semesters, possibly years of remedial courses to get to that baseline. It would
make so much more
sense for these students to get the remediation they need at the community colleges , where the professors actually focus on teaching, and then transfer once they have shown they are capable of doing the work, with the GPA/transcript to prove it. It would also be a lot cheaper too, for the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This makes me not want to send any of my kids to a UC school.

Yeah. Especially if you are OOS. It is not worth it. As a California resident, it is a “good deal” financially, but I would prefer to pay extra for a private college experience if my family can afford it. It’s better to go to UC for grad school—that is the basis for their reputation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UC San Diego admitted 26 students from Lincoln High School in San Diego. Only 12 students in the entire senior class met California's basic high school math standards on their CAASP test. Only 4% even pass an AP exam.

UC San Diego isn't getting the best and brightest from California. It is getting the best and brightest from each high school. The problem is a large proportion of their high schools have extreme low performers and no high performers.

So here we are. College students who are barely literate and with math skills of 5th graders.

The problem is not that the UCs are taking in decent students from rotten schools.

The acute problem is that the UCs can’t provide remedial instruction for those students.

The long-term problem is that the state hasn’t figure out to offer these students access to better classes, at least online, while the students are still in high school.

UC’s mission is not to be in the business of providing remedial education. UC’s strength is research and graduate programs.Due to their focus on equity and access they are turning away many kids who have the academic preparation to fully take advantage of those opportunities and instead admitting kids who may need several semesters, possibly years of remedial courses to get to that baseline. It would
make so much more
sense for these students to get the remediation they need at the community colleges , where the professors actually focus on teaching, and then transfer once they have shown they are capable of doing the work, with the GPA/transcript to prove it. It would also be a lot cheaper too, for the students.

No they just accept a ton of students. There are very few people leaving Berkeley who are academically ready for the challenge of a rigorous post-secondary education, even fewer who could get through a Berkeley grad program, but Berkeley is a massive place, so there are many of their students all over the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The solution is not to make kids provide AP scores. High school students should not have to take college classes in high school just to get into college.

The solution is not to require SAT tests. It’s not clear how well SATs predict anything.

The solution is to bring back SAT high school subject tests or the equivalent and require in-state UC students to get the equivalent of at least C’s on at least three of those.

The SAT subject tests used to measure something very practical: How well students had learned ordinary high school students.

Students obviously can improve their scores on subject tests by studying, and studying for those tests would give them something of value: literacy.

The UC schools could give exemptions for students with good reasoning and language skills along with learning disabilities in math.

When it comes down to it, how different is the SAT math section or the AP Precalc exam from the old SAT subject exam in math, really? They’re all testing approximately the same thing. And the evidence is that as soon as the AP Precalc scores became available, the percent of FTFY UCSD students placing into math beyond Calculus I jumped right back up to where it was when they used the SAT (48%). For kids taking precalc by junior year, admissions is back on track.

And for what it’s worth, many people will disagree with your claim that precalculus somehow became a “college class” in 2024, just because the College Board decided to provide an AP exam for that material.

[Anonymous]

The debate over whether SAT's inform how one performs in college is over. Trust the science on this one. The Ivies, MIT, etc. all have.

The UC's have to go back to using the SAT in admissions. The conundrum they face is URM's underperform on standardized tests so it will be a lot easier to prove if they discriminate against Asians (and whites). So I doubt they will ever do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The solution is not to make kids provide AP scores. High school students should not have to take college classes in high school just to get into college.

The solution is not to require SAT tests. It’s not clear how well SATs predict anything.

The solution is to bring back SAT high school subject tests or the equivalent and require in-state UC students to get the equivalent of at least C’s on at least three of those.

The SAT subject tests used to measure something very practical: How well students had learned ordinary high school students.

Students obviously can improve their scores on subject tests by studying, and studying for those tests would give them something of value: literacy.

The UC schools could give exemptions for students with good reasoning and language skills along with learning disabilities in math.

When it comes down to it, how different is the SAT math section or the AP Precalc exam from the old SAT subject exam in math, really? They’re all testing approximately the same thing. And the evidence is that as soon as the AP Precalc scores became available, the percent of FTFY UCSD students placing into math beyond Calculus I jumped right back up to where it was when they used the SAT (48%). For kids taking precalc by junior year, admissions is back on track.

And for what it’s worth, many people will disagree with your claim that precalculus somehow became a “college class” in 2024, just because the College Board decided to provide an AP exam for that material.

DP. My junior got a 5 on AP Precalc last year and a 670 math on the August SAT. Either there's something not right about the SAT, or Precalc is too easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The solution is not to make kids provide AP scores. High school students should not have to take college classes in high school just to get into college.

The solution is not to require SAT tests. It’s not clear how well SATs predict anything.

The solution is to bring back SAT high school subject tests or the equivalent and require in-state UC students to get the equivalent of at least C’s on at least three of those.

The SAT subject tests used to measure something very practical: How well students had learned ordinary high school students.

Students obviously can improve their scores on subject tests by studying, and studying for those tests would give them something of value: literacy.

The UC schools could give exemptions for students with good reasoning and language skills along with learning disabilities in math.

When it comes down to it, how different is the SAT math section or the AP Precalc exam from the old SAT subject exam in math, really? They’re all testing approximately the same thing. And the evidence is that as soon as the AP Precalc scores became available, the percent of FTFY UCSD students placing into math beyond Calculus I jumped right back up to where it was when they used the SAT (48%). For kids taking precalc by junior year, admissions is back on track.

And for what it’s worth, many people will disagree with your claim that precalculus somehow became a “college class” in 2024, just because the College Board decided to provide an AP exam for that material.

DP. My junior got a 5 on AP Precalc last year and a 670 math on the August SAT. Either there's something not right about the SAT, or Precalc is too easy.

A 670 is a good score for math. That puts you in the 88th user percentile, 93% for national.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Failure to use the SAT in admissions is making the University of California system look like a clown-car.

Anyone who would make a statement like that is driving the clown car. That said, the UCs like all public schools aren’t top 20 undergraduate schools and they shouldn’t try to be. They are in place to serve their state residents.

UC has two schools in the top 10 undergraduate universities, the next three (SD, Davis and Irvine) are ranked 29, 31 and 31. The next level down are ranked 38, 52, 80 (Santa Barbara, Merced and Santa Cruz) . Not sure where Riverside is but it’s in the top 100.

Having 5 instate options T1-T31 is pretty fortunate for CA residents even though the top 5 are hard to get into if you are from a wealthy high performing area.

If UC San Diego supposedly is a top public university and it churns out graduates who can't add 2+2, maybe it really isn't a top public university, or am I being obtuse?

It's the high schools that are sending out unprepared graduates. Students who can't pass required math courses at UCSD (or at any college) don't graduate.

This is California we are talking about. In what world would the people who run those universities (political appointees) allow low SES/English learners to fail out of school? They won't. If you have been paying attention, California sets academic standards, and when those standards can't be met, they adjust them. It is called equity for a reason. You can argue if equity is good or bad, but at the end of the day, equity is what drives California's decision-making.

And that’s why this once-great state is swirling down the toilet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Failure to use the SAT in admissions is making the University of California system look like a clown-car.

Anyone who would make a statement like that is driving the clown car. That said, the UCs like all public schools aren’t top 20 undergraduate schools and they shouldn’t try to be. They are in place to serve their state residents.

UC has two schools in the top 10 undergraduate universities, the next three (SD, Davis and Irvine) are ranked 29, 31 and 31. The next level down are ranked 38, 52, 80 (Santa Barbara, Merced and Santa Cruz) . Not sure where Riverside is but it’s in the top 100.

Having 5 instate options T1-T31 is pretty fortunate for CA residents even though the top 5 are hard to get into if you are from a wealthy high performing area.

If UC San Diego supposedly is a top public university and it churns out graduates who can't add 2+2, maybe it really isn't a top public university, or am I being obtuse?

It's the high schools that are sending out unprepared graduates. Students who can't pass required math courses at UCSD (or at any college) don't graduate.

This is California we are talking about. In what world would the people who run those universities (political appointees) allow low SES/English learners to fail out of school? They won't. If you have been paying attention, California sets academic standards, and when those standards can't be met, they adjust them. It is called equity for a reason. You can argue if equity is good or bad, but at the end of the day, equity is what drives California's decision-making.

And that’s why this once-great state is swirling down the toilet.

That’s a MAGA talking point. Like most maga talking points, it’s garbage.

California remains a wonderful place to live. I live in So Cal and when I travel through the country I pinch myself with gratitude that I get to come back sunny beautiful California.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

California resident here. Admittedly we are in private, but I don’t know ANY schools that allows unlimited retakes. My DC’s school doesn’t allow retakes on exams at all, kids average a 1450 SAT, and only a fraction will get admitted into UCLA or UCB. I’m not saying some kids without the same competency from lesser performing schools don’t get admitted, but the students are by and large VERY smart. And the ones who need help either leverage the resources to get out to level or transfer to a CC.

The UC system has the best state schools in the country for a reason, so don’t twist it to fit a narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The solution is not to make kids provide AP scores. High school students should not have to take college classes in high school just to get into college.

The solution is not to require SAT tests. It’s not clear how well SATs predict anything.

The solution is to bring back SAT high school subject tests or the equivalent and require in-state UC students to get the equivalent of at least C’s on at least three of those.

The SAT subject tests used to measure something very practical: How well students had learned ordinary high school students.

Students obviously can improve their scores on subject tests by studying, and studying for those tests would give them something of value: literacy.

The UC schools could give exemptions for students with good reasoning and language skills along with learning disabilities in math.

When it comes down to it, how different is the SAT math section or the AP Precalc exam from the old SAT subject exam in math, really? They’re all testing approximately the same thing. And the evidence is that as soon as the AP Precalc scores became available, the percent of FTFY UCSD students placing into math beyond Calculus I jumped right back up to where it was when they used the SAT (48%). For kids taking precalc by junior year, admissions is back on track.

And for what it’s worth, many people will disagree with your claim that precalculus somehow became a “college class” in 2024, just because the College Board decided to provide an AP exam for that material.

DP. My junior got a 5 on AP Precalc last year and a 670 math on the August SAT. Either there's something not right about the SAT, or Precalc is too easy.

Don’t be overjoyed w/5 . You typically get 5 if you score 75%(only)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many California high schools allow for unlimited retakes, don't punish for late work, etc. The report details that many of these students come from low-income, English-learning environments.

Even if the UC's still used SAT's they would get the same quality of applicant since they select by high school.

Can you imagine being an OOS student paying $90k a year for something like this?

California resident here. Admittedly we are in private, but I don’t know ANY schools that allows unlimited retakes. My DC’s school doesn’t allow retakes on exams at all, kids average a 1450 SAT, and only a fraction will get admitted into UCLA or UCB. I’m not saying some kids without the same competency from lesser performing schools don’t get admitted, but the students are by and large VERY smart. And the ones who need help either leverage the resources to get out to level or transfer to a CC.

The UC system has the best state schools in the country for a reason, so don’t twist it to fit a narrative.

The UC's reputation is coming under fire because they aren't taking the best and brightest. When you are admitting students who can't do 5th grade math, you have a problem. A serious problem. This is how institutions who have a great reputation lose that reputation.

[Anonymous]

I’m really mystified by all of the people arguing that an in-state kid who scored 670 math on the SAT isn’t fit for the 3rd or 4th best school in the state.