Dartmouth finally publishes their SAT data in the Common Data Set after dropping TO; white enrollment surges

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a Dartmouth freshman. Disclaimer: they're our oldest child so I don't have experience with another current day college and I didn't attend an Ivy or similar school myself.

Admission trends there are hard to pin down. Since our kid enrolled we've heard from half dozen legacy families in our larger circle of friends/coworkers/etc whose kids were rejected for the classes of 2029 and 2030. The perhaps most noteworthy is a friend's child whose parents both attended (and met there), are reasonably active alums, sibling attends, had great grades/scores/etc and yet was ultimately rejected. Got into Hopkins, Duke and Princeton (!) unhooked and attends one of these. This stands out as the most wild of the legacy rejections I personally now know but I could share almost a half dozen more that are almost as noteworthy.

The student body is a real mixed group. You have the children of actual billionaires (at maybe the highest concentration anywhere) and many of multi millionaires. They tend to have graduated at or near the very top of prep or boarding school classes. Bright and well trained. Many of this group are Dartmouth legacies.

Then you have the upper middle or professional class kids who are very smart and typical of what one thinks of as high achieving, Ivy level kids. Decent number of Asians in this group. My own child is in here.

Then you have a lot of kids who frankly aren't very remarkable. Most bring rural/geographic diversity and economic diversity. Many struggle. Since we're talking SAT scores, this group often had SAT scores in the 1400s, even 1300s (my kids knows or knew because apparently at some point in early freshman year this comes out in chatter). Dartmouth currently seems to love admitting this demographic (there are many of them) and views admitting them as being a large part of their current mission. I don't know if this is similar at other Ivies or other top 20s as I don't have another kid in college.

Which brings up the question of what the point of an Ivy is. Is it to educate the best and brightest, regardless of prior opportunity? Or is it to give a top opportunity to kids who will benefit most from it? Dartmouth appears to believe very strongly in the second. However, it's meant that kids like mine (a pretty typical DMV high-achiever) are skating through college and not really being challenged. To be frank, my child has a 4.0 and hasn't worked very hard. They will tell you that their high school cohort was by-in-large brighter than many classmates at college. In this regard it's been disappointing. I'm not sure what the rest of the years will hold. I'd be interested in hearing what other Dartmouth parents think.

So, your analysis is that only rich people and their children are intelligent (please don't start screaming about unfair characterizations, wealthy and upper middle class professional people's children are the only one receiving your praise in your words), and you believe that a large population of students are economic diversity or rural diversity. For starters, in a given class, maybe 10-15 students from underrepresented states make up that diversity. Second, being poor doesn't mean you received a poor education-many low income students attended top boarding schools, magnet programs or had academic opportunities through other means. Lastly, it sounds like Dartmouth is "educat[ing] the best and brightest, regardless of prior opportunity," just not falling into the trap that only the wealthy aristocracy deserve a seat. Education has been democratized. Live with it.

NP adding that those 1500s often don’t come naturally. There’s accommodations for extra time and incredible amounts of studying. The reading section is typically much easier for someone who grew up in an English speaking home where reading was modeled and encouraged. Some kids spend their whole lives doing outside tutoring for math. Some kids study for the SAT every summer. I’ve met plenty of applicants who did cram schools. Those 1400s and horrors 1300s aren’t necessarily any less intelligent.

Half the 1500 are asian. They study hard and take the test without accommodations. If they could somehow get it through their thick skulls that GPA and SAT is not enough, they'd get admitted a lot more often.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

Please. It’s also knowing about those resources, having the equipment to utilize them, the time to do so (hard when you’re working 20+ hrs/wk, as many of these kids are), and a safe and stable location in which to study.

Plenty of kids don’t have those things, and those that persevere through those challenges make privileged kids look pretty pathetic by comparison.

You've built a mythical coal miner's daughter in your mind that goes to school with a piece of paper and pencil tucked into their waistband. There might be a tiny handful of kids like that in the country. They're not squeezing anyone out. I doubt there are 20 kids like that in any entering class. The question is how prepared is the school to hold their hand and help bring them up to speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dartmouth hasn't published their SAT data in the Common Data Set for 4 years. They finally abandoned test optional. Well, they finally published it. The results are startling.

69% submitted SAT score
33% submitted ACT score

25%-50%-75%
1440-1520-1550

White 484 600 +116 +24.0%
Asian 150 145 −5 −3.3%
Black 70 53 −17 −24.3%
Hispanic 130 117 −13 −10.0%
AmIn/Alas 13 9 −4 −30.8%
Two + 98 105 +7 +7.1%
International (Nonresident) 170 154 −16 −9.4%

https://www.dartmouth.edu/oir/pdfs/cds_2025-26.pdf

White people love New Hampshire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

DP. My kid attends a public high school. 50% of the kids, including some high performing students, have to worry about whether they’ll have enough food to eat dinner.

Test workbooks? Not in a million years.

Where there's a will, there's a way. Why should we bend over backwards to send these kids to the best schools if they had no gumption? University of Their State will be just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

And if you're that farmer's daughter from Iowa you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your family by going to University of Iowa. You don't need to to fly across the country to a place you're never been with people so different than you. But, guess what, the farmer's daughter's kids will be primed to reach the next rung. This is the way it's historically been to just try to do better than one's own parents. When did we decide some need to be catapulted to the top over others who may be more deserving or capable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

Please. It’s also knowing about those resources, having the equipment to utilize them, the time to do so (hard when you’re working 20+ hrs/wk, as many of these kids are), and a safe and stable location in which to study.

Plenty of kids don’t have those things, and those that persevere through those challenges make privileged kids look pretty pathetic by comparison.

You've built a mythical coal miner's daughter in your mind that goes to school with a piece of paper and pencil tucked into their waistband. There might be a tiny handful of kids like that in the country. They're not squeezing anyone out. I doubt there are 20 kids like that in any entering class. The question is how prepared is the school to hold their hand and help bring them up to speed.

You live in a bubble. My 11th grader’s class (at a public magnet) has 5-6 exceptional kids that fit the description. And another 30-40 that are capable, but won’t even manage to take the test or go to a 4 year college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

Please. It’s also knowing about those resources, having the equipment to utilize them, the time to do so (hard when you’re working 20+ hrs/wk, as many of these kids are), and a safe and stable location in which to study.

Plenty of kids don’t have those things, and those that persevere through those challenges make privileged kids look pretty pathetic by comparison.

You've built a mythical coal miner's daughter in your mind that goes to school with a piece of paper and pencil tucked into their waistband. There might be a tiny handful of kids like that in the country. They're not squeezing anyone out. I doubt there are 20 kids like that in any entering class. The question is how prepared is the school to hold their hand and help bring them up to speed.

You live in a bubble. My 11th grader’s class (at a public magnet) has 5-6 exceptional kids that fit the description. And another 30-40 that are capable, but won’t even manage to take the test or go to a 4 year college.

Capable of what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

And if you're that farmer's daughter from Iowa you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your family by going to University of Iowa. You don't need to to fly across the country to a place you're never been with people so different than you. But, guess what, the farmer's daughter's kids will be primed to reach the next rung. This is the way it's historically been to just try to do better than one's own parents. When did we decide some need to be catapulted to the top over others who may be more deserving or capable?

DP. Lol. Point is they are neither less deserving nor less capable. Quite the contrary in most cases.

My kid is privileged—stable home, UMC, 1550+ SAT, multiple state and national awards in multiple ECs, etc.

But we are very well aware (from first hand experience) that he’s in no way more capable or gifted than many of his less advantaged (and therefore less accomplished) peers.

Test prep, etc. are the educational equivalent of makeup. They may put a superficial gloss on something but they don’t change its intrinsic nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

And if you're that farmer's daughter from Iowa you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your family by going to University of Iowa. You don't need to to fly across the country to a place you're never been with people so different than you. But, guess what, the farmer's daughter's kids will be primed to reach the next rung. This is the way it's historically been to just try to do better than one's own parents. When did we decide some need to be catapulted to the top over others who may be more deserving or capable?

DP. Lol. Point is they are neither less deserving nor less capable. Quite the contrary in most cases.

My kid is privileged—stable home, UMC, 1550+ SAT, multiple state and national awards in multiple ECs, etc.

But we are very well aware (from first hand experience) that he’s in no way more capable or gifted than many of his less advantaged (and therefore less accomplished) peers.

Test prep, etc. are the educational equivalent of makeup. They may put a superficial gloss on something but they don’t change its intrinsic nature.

They are less capable if they need tons of support and scaffolding with remedial classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

Please. It’s also knowing about those resources, having the equipment to utilize them, the time to do so (hard when you’re working 20+ hrs/wk, as many of these kids are), and a safe and stable location in which to study.

Plenty of kids don’t have those things, and those that persevere through those challenges make privileged kids look pretty pathetic by comparison.

You've built a mythical coal miner's daughter in your mind that goes to school with a piece of paper and pencil tucked into their waistband. There might be a tiny handful of kids like that in the country. They're not squeezing anyone out. I doubt there are 20 kids like that in any entering class. The question is how prepared is the school to hold their hand and help bring them up to speed.

You live in a bubble. My 11th grader’s class (at a public magnet) has 5-6 exceptional kids that fit the description. And another 30-40 that are capable, but won’t even manage to take the test or go to a 4 year college.

Capable of what?

Excelling academically, scoring well on SAT, attending a competitive 4 year college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

And if you're that farmer's daughter from Iowa you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your family by going to University of Iowa. You don't need to to fly across the country to a place you're never been with people so different than you. But, guess what, the farmer's daughter's kids will be primed to reach the next rung. This is the way it's historically been to just try to do better than one's own parents. When did we decide some need to be catapulted to the top over others who may be more deserving or capable?

DP. Lol. Point is they are neither less deserving nor less capable. Quite the contrary in most cases.

My kid is privileged—stable home, UMC, 1550+ SAT, multiple state and national awards in multiple ECs, etc.

But we are very well aware (from first hand experience) that he’s in no way more capable or gifted than many of his less advantaged (and therefore less accomplished) peers.

Test prep, etc. are the educational equivalent of makeup. They may put a superficial gloss on something but they don’t change its intrinsic nature.

They are less capable if they need tons of support and scaffolding with remedial classes.

No, they just didn’t get the opportunities or educational baseline that your kids did. They’re every bit as capable, or more so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I recall correctly, Dartmouth did an analysis of things in the test optional era. And they didn’t like what they saw. Very strong rural and urban students without access to test prep who scored in the 1300/1400s weren’t applying anymore. All the benefits of test optional went to rich kids.

Dartmouth wants a diverse class. Being test mandatory helps them get that. Everyone knows a 1350 from Anacostia High School is more impressive than a 1500 from Sidwell Friends. And being test mandatory helps them get those students. But naturally, test score averages will go down.

Whether or not all these diverse students commingle at Dartmouth is a different question. That’s about school culture. Some are good at it. And some aren’t.

Why didn't rural and urban kids have access to practice test workbooks? Come on.

DP. My kid attends a public high school. 50% of the kids, including some high performing students, have to worry about whether they’ll have enough food to eat dinner.

Test workbooks? Not in a million years.

Where there's a will, there's a way. Why should we bend over backwards to send these kids to the best schools if they had no gumption? University of Their State will be just fine.

Gumption? You have no idea what these kids go through. It certainly puts your average anxiety ridden UMC kid to shame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol. Test prep resources consists of College Board's free services, Khan academy (free), Uworld, 1600,io for $100, free books at the library, plus thousands of youtube videos and hundreds of free sites.

Test prep means foregoing tik tok, snap, discord, video games and studying. Nothing rich or poor about that. It is effort.

I don't think you get the challenges that bright students in rural America and the inner city face. There is no culture of academic excellence. A kid from these environments scoring a 1350 is extraordinary. The national average is about 1040 - and that includes all the strong kids in the Bay area, the tristate area, the DMV, the Chicago burbs and so on. Rural America and the inner city is a lot lower than that.

A private school parent in DC looks at a 1350 and goes, ok, we can fix that. A few thousand on tutoring and we can bump that up to a 1500.

These things are not happening in 99 percent of America.

A kid with a shitty education in a shitty location scoring a 1350 is a superstar.

And if you're that farmer's daughter from Iowa you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your family by going to University of Iowa. You don't need to to fly across the country to a place you're never been with people so different than you. But, guess what, the farmer's daughter's kids will be primed to reach the next rung. This is the way it's historically been to just try to do better than one's own parents. When did we decide some need to be catapulted to the top over others who may be more deserving or capable?

Elite schools are wary of appearing to be closed off to all but multi-millionaire trust fund kids from Manhattan. That’s why they admit farmers’ daughters from Iowa, and it’s also why they admit suburban kids with high test scores. Those high-scoring suburban kids are several socio-economic rungs down from the Manhattan elite for whose benefit the schools really exist. They really don’t need to be catapulted into that rarified class, and would probably be better off attending the University of Maryland and becoming dentists or accountants like their dads.

[Anonymous]

There is no reason to dismiss the multi-generational achievement of a family that resulted in an accepted candidate. Many families work for generations to put themselves in this position. What we call privilege is normally just generationally-compounded accomplishment. There is no reason to seek to undo it or frame it as illegitimate.

Color me not-shocked that high-achieving white families have surged now that admissions are more closely based on measurable factors.