Tim Carney in the Post: The Ideal Number of Kids is Four (at a minimum)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mom of five here. It is 100 percent easier to have 5 kids than 3. I found 3 the absolute hardest. Now my older kids entertain and help with the younger kids. The year my third was born was the least happy year of my life. I am now the happiest I have ever been since becoming a mom with my fifth almost turning one. I am way more relaxed and it is 100 percent true that older kids help so much. For example on Saturday mornings I will wake up and my 12 year old has changed my toddler's diaper, turned on his cartoon, and gotten him a bowl of cheerios while I lounge in bed with DH.

What I am looking forward to is parents of 2-3 kids trying to explain why those of us with 4+ don't actually know what we are talking about when we say it's easier and we are happier than you all.

Oh and PS my career is on fire.

Good for you - now what is your waist measurement?

Oh and hows the old pelvic floor???

I have one awesome child and I do not pee myself when I sneeze, how about you?

You had one child too many. You have problems.

So I’m guessing, not great?

DP. Agree with the other PPs. You have bigger issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the oldest of four. It wasn't easy but I don't think I would have been happier if I were an only...my parents were pretty intense so spreading out their attention helped. I wouldn't want that many kids myself but I know several friends and relatives with 3-5 kids who seem happy. What I care about is what policies Carney supports to help people with larger families. Does he want more WIC and home visiting? Medicaid for a year or two after birth to reduce maternal mortality and postpartum depression? Elimination of TANF household limits? Restructure the eitc so it doesn't max out at 3 kids? Daycare subsidies? Caregiver credits for social security?

+1

I consider myself a leftist pronatalist, and this really resonates with me. He’s definitely part of the upswing in advocating for Christian patriarchy. Theres really no doubt about that. It ties with the prolife movement and effort to woman’s bodies.

However, I want to advocate for an end to intensive parenting. Not only is it impossible for the parent, but it’s not good for the kids.

[Anonymous]

This is all so silly. I'm glad this random guy knows more than the 90% or so women who never have more than 3 kids. Every family will be different. My friends with 4 kids do seem happy, but even if that does mimic a national pattern, it's correlation, not causation. Most people will choose to stop before 4 if their marriage is hard, if their kids have special needs, if they hate the baby stage, if money is tight, if they don't want to go through the physical demands of pregnancy and childbirth again, if they like to travel or sleep in, if they are advanced maternal age, if they have careers or hobbies they want to have time for ... most of these people would be even MORE unhappy with 4+ kids. If you are sailing smoothly enough through kid #3 to contemplate a 4th, you already have an edge up.

[Anonymous]

I’m the fourth child of my parents. I loved being one of four! I agree with the poster that my parents attention was better spread across multiple, and I have a very positive experience of play and adventure with my siblings. Living with siblings is a constant exercise in negotiation; your interests and theirs have to considered, it is a microcosm of the community at large. I understand why people choose to be one-and-done but the vast majority of children would benefit from having siblings.

[Anonymous]

I was one of the middle kids of four and basically, if any of your siblings are higher needs, you get ignored a lot. My older brother has bipolar disorder and my parents were so overwhelmed with that, I basically ended up just doing my own thing a lot of the time and watching the younger ones. I didn't have people come to my plays or similar, and there was never any money for me to go on class trips or similar because my brother's hospitalizations cost so much.

I'm one and done myself. I initially planned on 2 but I got very sick with pre eclampsia when my son was born and decided that I couldn't go through that again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the fourth child of my parents. I loved being one of four! I agree with the poster that my parents attention was better spread across multiple, and I have a very positive experience of play and adventure with my siblings. Living with siblings is a constant exercise in negotiation; your interests and theirs have to considered, it is a microcosm of the community at large. I understand why people choose to be one-and-done but the vast majority of children would benefit from having siblings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

And by the way- I have two kids myself, and I still can’t stand this bias. What works best for one family may not work for another. A lot of it is dependent upon money and being able to outsource things like cleaning, cooking, packing kids lunches etc

[Anonymous]

I can see how having 4+ is easier, I really can. You would indeed have more help because there's more members of the family. Also, as they get older, probably a lot of fun having a large family.

However - I think it would kill me and I only have 2!

If you have any kid who has a disability of any sort learning or physical, that has got to suck. If you have limited income, that's gotta suck. I mean I would imagine, your threshold for luxury goes down and you can probably camp to vacation every vacation? LOL I would imagine that you are REALLY REALLY easygoing and chill because I think I would lose my mind otherwise. There's no other choice but to destress.

However, with my personality, 3 would kill me. While my other kid is away this week on a school trip, having one is like a vacation - I am having a really great week as I have DH to help me shuttle my other kid to activities and it's just one less to manage and my kids are on the MS aged. One dinner to deal with, one kid to worry about, etc. Let me tell you - it's awesome! I love both my kids but seriously, anymore than 2 is a mountain of work. I cannot imagine getting to 4+! The pregnancies alone would kill me literally!!

[Anonymous]

Poor and stupid people will continue to sh!t out more kids for us to support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

But you are doing the same thing. Yes there are people on here who are against big families. But here you are describing people who prefer smaller families as raising "self entitled brats."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

But you are doing the same thing. Yes there are people on here who are against big families. But here you are describing people who prefer smaller families as raising "self entitled brats."

I’m not. I have two kids! Fully acknowledge the benefits of smaller and larger families. But people on dcum come out with pitchforks - that people with larger families can’t give the best of everything to four kids (which isn’t necessarily true, and can also be true with two kids- entirely dependent on income) and are therefore bad parents. I can’t stand that judgemental attitude. They are saying if a child has to (gasp) consider others in the household, they’re at a disadvantage. In my opinion that’s a reason NOT to only have two kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

But you are doing the same thing. Yes there are people on here who are against big families. But here you are describing people who prefer smaller families as raising "self entitled brats."

I’m not. I have two kids! Fully acknowledge the benefits of smaller and larger families. But people on dcum come out with pitchforks - that people with larger families can’t give the best of everything to four kids (which isn’t necessarily true, and can also be true with two kids- entirely dependent on income) and are therefore bad parents. I can’t stand that judgemental attitude. They are saying if a child has to (gasp) consider others in the household, they’re at a disadvantage. In my opinion that’s a reason NOT to only have two kids

Well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

But you are doing the same thing. Yes there are people on here who are against big families. But here you are describing people who prefer smaller families as raising "self entitled brats."

I’m not. I have two kids! Fully acknowledge the benefits of smaller and larger families. But people on dcum come out with pitchforks - that people with larger families can’t give the best of everything to four kids (which isn’t necessarily true, and can also be true with two kids- entirely dependent on income) and are therefore bad parents. I can’t stand that judgemental attitude. They are saying if a child has to (gasp) consider others in the household, they’re at a disadvantage. In my opinion that’s a reason NOT to only have two kids

But your own experience was not really one of needing to consider the other kids or make trade offs in any sort of meaningful way if your family had resources for everyone to go to private school, play elite sports, get tutoring etc. I think if you are seriously wealthy and can outsource all the extra things most of us need to do like teach our kids things and do the cleaning and never worry about money etc you might have the bandwidth to parent 4 kids acceptably. However, that’s not the case for most large families. My dad had a good job and my mom worked part time and we would have been comfortable with a small family. As it was, each kid could only do one activity per year and if one kid had extra needs there was no additional help to deal with it. That attention just came at the expense of the other kids.

My oldest has mild SN (less than my sibling) and a big part of why we stopped at 2 was to be sure we’d have some bandwidth for the second one in addition to meeting our oldest’s needs. There’s plenty of compromising still, I promise you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But how does the 12 yr old feel about it?

great - she's happy as a clam and is often offering to help even when I don't need it.

You won't know she is happy as a clam until she grows up. She might be an extreme people pleaser.

Agree. That's how she gets your attention - by being the perfect little parent helper.

I’m the youngest of four. My oldest siblings didn’t have to “raise” me but my sister, who’s the oldest, was desperate for a baby sister and in so many pictures when I was a baby, she’s holding me with a huge grin. We’re still super close today and she has three kids of her own. She loved being a big sister - I think you’re projecting a lot of your own defensiveness onto larger families. The second born in my family is one of my brothers, and he’s an amazing father also to three kids. He’s actually a lot more involved than his wife and is always doing fun things with his kids. They both grew up to love kids. My other brother and I - numbers three and four - have less patience with kids because we didn’t really grow up with young kids around us.

Well I was an older sister and I never wanted to be the “little mother.” Not much fun. it’s great if the older girls enjoy it, not so great if they are forced to be free childcare.

My point is that they weren’t forced to be childcare. My sister and brothers are huge achievers and were in tons of activities and went to Ivy League schools. They are very successful and well adjusted adults. Our family was well off and had resources for whatever activities, tutoring or resources we needed. We went to private school and all skied, played tennis, were on debate teams, mock trial, and each did all of the “elite” extracurriculars. We were honors and AP students and national merit scholars. DCUM wants to keep pushing this narrative that large families are miserable and deadbeats… and that’s just an awful generalization. I can’t speak to “parentifiction” of kids, because my parents didn’t do that, but dcum acts like having a teenager babysit a younger kid is child abuse and anything short of raising 1-2 (max) entitled self centered brats is unacceptable. Many kids from families of 3+ are so happy to have more than one sibling, including myself. My siblings are my best friends as adults and we’re close with our parents.

I'm from a family much bigger than yours and it wasn't a healthy environment to grow up in. We didn't have money like your family. We didn't play sports (no one could drive us back and forth to games, we didn't have extra cars for the teenagers to do it, parents didn't have the time). We never traveled, never ate out, didn't go to plays and movies or concerts. There was no space in the house to get away from the chaos. No privacy. Mental illness is rampant in the family and unfortunately half my siblings have not become functioning adults. I love them all, but the size of our family definitely had an effect on us all.

So does my experience nullify yours?